The IB program

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
21

<p>I get what you're saying about the standardization of the IB program, but the AP program has very little deviation from the curriculum of other schools. We all use the same books, labs, some of the same tests, and the same AP exam.</p>

<p>Schools in my county all have AP and 2 have IB. Many of the public schools in my county are way above par (montgomery county, MD). I have not heard much about IB kids from other schools, but based on these kids, the IB classes are very similar to AP.</p>

<p>All of the AP teachers in our schools are fully qualified to teach our courses. Several of our teachers go and grade AP exams themselves at AP HQ.</p>

<p>If I lived in a county with a poor public education system and it offered IB, then you'd probably right that IB teachers are more qualified than AP teachers.</p>

<p>Since you people are in the Harvard forums, I'm assuming college credit for HS courses doesn't matter much to any of you. IB definitely does look nicer than AP on transcripts, but then why do they give less credit for IB exams than AP exams at many universities?</p>

<p>Another problem I see with the IB curricula is the structure. Why should I, a science-oriented major, have to take certain unnecessary liberal humanities classes(i.e. not world history or government).</p>

22

<p>To reply to afruff23, that's the magic of the IB curriculum. It is so multifarious, and that is exactly why unis love it. Cuz they know that u cant just spend ur life in a lab-u have to do other things as well, and they like this well-rounded amalgamation of thinker-experimenter that the IB projects. </p>

<p>Make no mistake, there are little similarities regarding the:
way the curriculum is taught
the professors
the curriculum itself
the students' life</p>

<p>The curriculum itself and the way it is taught
It is always being adapted and improved-a revised curriculum is issued every 7 years. Specialized teams of professors at Geneva revise it at the Headquarters of the IBO. The curriculum itself is much more flexible than the prosaic AP curriculum-every teacher can choose his or her syllabus in all classes to a particular extent. Have a look at Paper 2 or paper 3 in history IB, if u find any past papers online, or even Paper two english-u can see that the questions can be answered based on many books-it is so flexible, it is amazing.</p>

<p>The professors
They are highly specialized, attending mandatory meetings and seminars taught by experts on the disciplines in Geneva before they even BEGIN to teach. They are all very professional and they know how to deal with the student. The main difference is that IB IS STUDENT ORIENTED AND NOT TEACHER ORIENTED.</p>

<p>There is no such thing as standardization, as u mentioned afruff23. On the contrary-read some of the above, and u will see how individualistic and unique it is. </p>

<p>It is not memorizing, it is analysing....</p>

<p>
[quote]
Since you people are in the Harvard forums, I'm assuming college credit for HS courses doesn't matter much to any of you. IB definitely does look nicer than AP on transcripts, but then why do they give less credit for IB exams than AP exams at many universities?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh cmon, how can u assume that we dont care about college credit??Dont be so absolute. And as far as AP and IB credit is concerned, bear in mind that all ivies, and other splendid schools offer the same credit-i believe that in the cases where there is some differentiation, it is because of the limited number of IB schools in the states, compared to the vast number of AP courses offered....
It's statistics, it isnt "IB is not as good as AP"-on the contrary, it is much much much better</p>

23

<p>How come IB kids take AP Bio in some schools? I understand that there is extra work in addition to the AP coursework, but frankly extra labs don't help much. Even the labs you already do in AP Bio are pretty pointless and IMO too many.</p>

<p>As you noted, AP curricula differs among schools a bit. That is why I said AP classes in bad schools are not nearly as good as AP classes in good schools.</p>

<p>AP teachers regularly hold meetings amongst each other as well to discuss curricula and other things. Just because they don't take orders from somebody in Geneva, doesn't mean the teachers have no idea what they are doing.</p>

<p>AP classes are also taught with many different books among different schools. AP Biology seems to be an exception. Most schools (like ours) uses Campbell's 7th edition, which is CLEARLY the best of general biology books.</p>

<p>Many AP courses allow flexibility at the school level. For AP physics, teachers receive an outline of what they need their students to be able to do. They create and submit a curriculum and then teach this approved curriculum. The APUSH also makes his own curriculum. Other classes probably make their own curricula but I have not asked or have no interest.</p>

24

<p>I don't know why college credit is offered more often for AP tests than for IB tests. However, colleges are increasingly recognizing the IB curriculum. In Texas, for example, there is a state-mandated law that any student who completes the IB Diploma program must receive the equivalent of 24-hours worth of college credit at any public Texas university. While that may not seem like a big deal, that's basically a full year of school, which can really help out people financially. </p>

<p>I understand afruff's dislike of the fact that science-oriented people have to be involved in so many humanities classes and vice versa. However, I really believe that it is a valuable juxtaposition because I think that too often high school kids classify themselves as being "math/science people" or "humanities people." The connection between each of my subjects is fairly fascinating to me. </p>

<p>I also believe that there is much more freedom in IB than in AP. If you think about the way the Extended Essay is constructed, you can essentially write about absolutely anything. In addition, the essays and presentations that you do for TOK cover such a broad range of subjects that there is essentially complete freedom.</p>

<p>That's another thing. AP kids are missing out on TOK. Maybe it's just my school, or my group in TOK, or my teacher, but TOK is the most awesome thing ever.</p>

25

<p>IB is very accommodating to people interested in doing science. I know many kids in my school who chose to do Biology/Chemistry instead of an art or another historical class like History of Social Anthropology. But of course - IB is supposed to broaden your horizons to see if you might be able to approach something other than science and enjoy it. It definitely is not the program for someone who is thoroughly convinced at the age of 14 that they are ready to "major" in a science at a magnet school. It's a liberal arts education not a science-specific one. But that does not mean it is not accommodating to higher-level math courses (and yes, AP material may be covered too). I know that after finish our IB requirements my English teacher is not helping us do a little review for the AP Literature test. So it's not like IB is the one test considered in an IB school.</p>

26

<p>
[quote]
u should do some research before u trash a program. Predicted grades in IB show what u r expected to get the diploma with (the grade), and most unis love that, since it gives a very, very accurate evaluation (and unis know that)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If "predicted" grades have any speculative component, there is something seriously wrong. It would be a different story if there were some known or published formula for the prediction (something available to the applicant at the outset of the course and to the universities when the predicted grade is reported).
Is there?</p>

<p>Note that this is a totally separate issue from the virtues of IB vs AP vs A-levels. Prior to this thread my information about IB was from a reliable source, a very smart individual who told me that his high school IB was far more demanding than anything he did at a (top 10 US) university. So IB sounded promising, until in this thread I discovered that it requires 350 hours of "community service" and may report speculated grades to universities. Yikes.</p>

27

<p>It requires 150 hours, 50 in three areas of Creativity (arts), Action (some sort of physical activity but usually sports) and Service. Also I do not know of any policy of IB schools reporting predicted grades to schools because most often than not predicted grades are made well after many school deadlines. Predicted grades are more often than not fairly easy to determine because the internal and external assessments a candidate takes factors into the final IB score for all classes after the exam is taken. It's only more scary because the program and it's structure holds you more accountable for your performance.</p>

28

<p>No matter how good the IB academically, any gratuitous non-academic requirement such as Service (whatever the number of hours) sounds suspicious.</p>

<p>re: predictions, I don't think accuracy is an issue, the problem is the presence of speculation rather than retrospection.</p>

29

<p>
[quote]
Note that this is a totally separate issue from the virtues of IB vs AP vs A-levels. Prior to this thread my information about IB was from a reliable source, a very smart individual who told me that his high school IB was far more demanding than anything he did at a (top 10 US) university. So IB sounded promising, until in this thread I discovered that it requires 350 hours of "community service" and may report speculated grades to universities. Yikes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wow, look at this kid wanting to go to harvard and talking about "gratuitous" CAS hours, one of the best systems, since it aims at the student being WELL-ROUNDED, sth u clearly are not cognizant of. Just because u prefer sitting in ur lab creating nitrous acid and exploding things, that does not qualify you to call any service gratuitous. Some kids actually CARE about their volunteer activities, and the IB offers amazing opportunities to all of them, through CAS.</p>

<p>
[quote]

re: predictions, I don't think accuracy is an issue, the problem is the presence of speculation rather than retrospection.

[/quote]

It is not a prediction, it is based SOLELY on ur previous grades:
40% Finals of June, 10% each quarter (times 4) and 20% midterms (the internal and external assignments do come into play as well). And trust me, they rarely fail. It is not a speculation, it is a cumulative score of how u did and how, predicated upon this, u r expected to do. and What WRONG do u find with an evaluation of how u r gonna do by ur teachers... I mean god. The teachers are not frigging speculating, they have TANGIBLE facts of your performance. And WHAT ON EARTH COULD UR RESPECTABLE SOURCE HAVE BEEN????? OPEN A BOOK OR LOOK STUFF ONLINE, DONT JUST TALK AWAY WITHOUT HAVING ANY FACTS!!! Ignorance is the worst thing, and this thread is full of it.</p>

<p>That's all</p>

30

<p>Gratuitous is a bit too strong of a word. The program essential aims to push all it's students to explore something. If a student isn't particularly interested in community service but is required to find a project and contribute, that could led to that student having a fruitful experience. That very spirit could continue post-graduation into that student's adult life, after discovering a cause worth contributing to.</p>

<p>Maybe this debate is a little too long-winded, but the IB program is not some huge juggernaut to be weary of. I just believe in the program, because it offers many schools a chance to offer a challenging, rigorous curriculum that until quite recently ago, only private schools were able to offer.</p>

31

<p>I absolutely hate the false stereotype that AP courses are mere memorization. It's completely wrong. More than half of the exam is free response. It's an argument people love to throw out when talking about how IB is better. </p>

<p>Secondly, IB is NOT better. Stop throwing out useless generalizations like that. For some, IB is better and for others AP is better. I had the choice to make between a full-fledged IB program and take all APs. Taking all APs has proved to be far more challenging and fulfilling to me personally, compared to IB students who have it easier in some classes because it's SL. Because you are only allowed to take a certain number of HLs, I found that IB would actually be less challenging than all APs. </p>

<p>Taking all APs proved to be the better choice for me because I was able to have a more diverse curriculum and really hand-pick the classes that I wanted to take both my junior and senior year. And having many friends that did in fact graduate from the IB program, the general consensus is that AP exams are much more useful for credit.</p>

32

<p>
[quote]
I had the choice to make between a full-fledged IB program and take all APs. Taking all APs has proved to be far more challenging and fulfilling to me personally, compared to IB students who have it easier in some classes because it's SL. Because you are only allowed to take a certain number of HLs, I found that IB would actually be less challenging than all APs.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ok, lets tackle the ignorant misconceptions and fallacies in this. How would u know since u did not do IB???And the maximum HL u can take is 4, but this is by far more demanding. And who on earth told you that SL is easy to get through? It is not-it only has a more limited syllabus to cover, but i assure u, it is just as rigorous as any HL. And since u have NO CLUE what it is like, then plz stop just stating things with no evidence. I welcome all evidence, such as online sources etc., but blatant statements like that are absurd.</p>

<p>And as far as the credit thing is concerned, it is my choice to do a curriculum with less credit in SOME cases, rather than go easy on a less challenging, less multifarious and less well-rounded program that just would not suffice, when seeking nothing short of excellent.</p>

<p>Take it from the other kids as well, who have dealt with both-u havent so u cant really state that
[quote]
IB is NOT better

[/quote]
</p>

33

<p>Because many of my close friends are in IB. In fact, two of my best friends are in IB. Of course I have a clue what it is like. I'm also an AP student who has also taken IB classes. I've dealt with both so don't even go there.</p>

<p>You're the one spouting absurd stuff about the AP program. You don't know what it's like to take a full load of APs, so where do you come off telling me that I have no foundation for my argument? </p>

<p>I don't think that taking 4 HLs is more demanding than taking 7 APs. That is where you are completely wrong. Again, how would you know? </p>

<p>I found that I couldn't take each class at the level I wanted to take it at with IB. SL math and SL foreign language would have actually been a step back and a year behind where I was at the moment. You can't contest that.</p>

<p>I found that taking a full load of APs was more challenging and covered a greater depth of what I wanted to know. Macro and microeconomics, art history, comparative politics and government, statistics, I could go on and on. </p>

<p>As far as your quote selection, I proceeded to state that nothing is finitely BETTER, that it all depends on the individual student. IB is NOT better NOR worse.</p>

34

<p>U may want to work ur ass of, and target at a specialized education-say only sciences, and so on, but IB offers more-u cant even BEGIN TO DEAL WITH AP VS IB, without taking into consideration the Extended Essay, and TOK, let alone CAS. Where do these come into play at AP??
Nowhere, cuz it's a stupid program that aims at getting the students better at school-nothing more.</p>

<p>IB is by far more multifarious and diverse. What is ur argument about that??
I'd like to hear u tackle the diversity, EE CAS AND TOK of IB...........
So bring it on</p>

35

<p>I don't really want to jump into the middle of this and get ugly, but I just want to clarify that SOME of us who are saying that IB is better are actually in both. By the end of this year, I will have tested in 6 IB subjects and 7 AP subjects, so I really have done double in every area (Psych, Biology, Spanish, English, Calculus) except for history (so no APUSH or Macroeconomics). </p>

<p>My main point is that a lot of people disqualify any kind of sentiment from AP kids because "they don't know about IB" and the opposite occurs too. And viva<em>sweet</em>love is right, AP IS better for some people. I understand perfectly what you're saying about how if you had to take your foreign language SL it would have been a "step backwards." Then again, at my school, you can take your foreign language SL and then still take the AP test (I'm taking HL though).</p>

<p>Personally, it might be more challenging studying-wise to prepare for an AP test. You mention that 1/2 the test is free response, however, there are few subjects in which the essays don't incorporate aspects of memorization. In Biology, they could care less about the mechanics/passion of your writing but value completely the information you present. In Calculus, it's a free response, but you still, at some point, had to memorize how to do the problem. In Psychology, the essays are merely defining concepts in paragraph form. In English, yes, the free response is absolutely not based off of memorization. I don't think that it's degrading to the AP curriculum to say that it values memorization...I think that it's admirable that we are challenged to retain such a vast array of information. However, I believe it is more psychologically and intellectually challenging to write several essays (or "papers," are IB calls them) in a testing environment and to possess the ability to write everything you can about everything you know.</p>

<p>To be honest, I find it really beautiful. And maybe that's lame, but the sense of gratification derived from an IB test greatly surpasses that of the gratification of completing an AP test. And maybe I am biased...but I have taken both. I know both, and thus I think it's fair for me to comment upon it.</p>

36

<p>
[quote]
To be honest, I find it really beautiful. And maybe that's lame, but the sense of gratification derived from an IB test greatly surpasses that of the gratification of completing an AP test. And maybe I am biased...but I have taken both. I know both, and thus I think it's fair for me to comment upon it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>wow, u just vocalized all of my thoughts.....good job ;)</p>

37

<p>It is not clear from all the above postings whether or not there is a
formula for what the IB program reports as "predicted grades". One
person claims it is a fixed weighted average (at his school? at all schools?) of previous results and another (in the IB program) says it is unknown to her what her predicted grades might be. Also the university web site excerpted above, requested "accurate" predicted grades; how this could even be an issue if there were a known formula that doesn't vary according to teacher or school. </p>

<p>Question: are IB grade predictions performed in accordance with a universal published formula, using as input grades that are known to the student at the time the predictions are made, and if so, what is the formula? Is it published on any IB web site?</p>

38

<p>I, personally, think that getting a 7 on an IB exam is so much harder than getting a 5 on an AP exam. The IBO probably laughs at the fact that getting a score of approximately 60% on some AP exams earns students a perfect mark. In IB, there are also virtually NO multiple choice questions. They are all long answer questions. In the long run, writing abilities are more crucial than the ability to fill out bubbles.</p>

<p>One of my friends two years ago got into a prestigious UPenn business program (don't know any details, unfortunately). This program only accepted 30 international students (we're Canadian). Upon getting to UPenn, my friend noticed that all of the 29 other international students there had the IB diploma. She now realizes that, without it, she would not have even been considered for admission.</p>

<p>Many people argue that AP Calc is so much harder than IB math. What these people fail to see half the time is the level of the IB courses. Obviously, IB Maths Studies SL cannot even be compared to AP Calc AB, and especially not AP Calc BC. IB Maths HL, however, is tougher than AP Calc BC. IB Further Maths SL would, quite frankly, be the equivalent of an AP Calc DE. </p>

<p>I recently read an article in Time magazine praising the IB program. It stated that over 60% of US high school students can't even speak a second language. Speaking two languages is a necessary requirement for the IB Diploma Program. The Time magazine article argued that many schools aren't ready for the 21st century world. Many of you would doubtless be surprised by the fact that there was no mention of AP in the article. </p>

<p>The thing with IB isn't so much what is taught (that is obviously important too, seeing as this is an educational program), but the way it is taught. This is why it isn't possible to self-study for an IB exam, yet this isn't the case with AP.</p>

39

<p>It all boils down to this:
Do u want a challenging course that REALLY shows how well you are going to do in the university, or do u want an adequately challenging curriculum?</p>

<p>I chose the specialized, challenging, work-your-ass-off-or-forget-about-it IB program</p>

40

<p>I sincerely do not understand why IB kids are so passionate about the program. </p>

<p>I had the choice whether to take the full IB Diploma or all APs. As some other girl in the forum said, I went for all APs.</p>

<p>The reason was that I had much more freedom of choice.</p>

<p>About the community hours, I chose to take 300+</p>

<p>More than IB.</p>

<p>About the foreign language requirement mentioned?</p>

<p>Yeah. I speak 4 languages.</p>

<p>Not 2. As the IB Diploma dictates.</p>

<p>And TOK? </p>

<p>Im taking it anyway, even though Im not in the program. </p>

<p>So yah. Im not in IB partly because for some reason, the kids in the program choose to be so snobby about it and partly because for me, AP just worked better. </p>

<p>Again, neither IB nor AP is better. One is better for some and the other for other people.</p>