<p>There isn’t much difference between 2200 and 2300 supposing one got fairly even scores on all three sections. If CR is low as 600s which happens often for Asian internationals, it would be problematic. I’m ORM, and I’m not in favor of AA discrimination.
Although I’m falling in generalization, I would say URM tends to be relatively poor, especially the black students. It is understandable that their environments are not promoting education and preparation for colleges. However, it would be also wrong to generalize all or most of Asian students are prepared for colleges from early ages. I was never informed about SAT/ACT until I found out at grade 9. No one told me about U.S admission. There was no effective tutor in the small city in Canada. I was stuck in ESL class in grade 9 and school English class taught me very basic simple grammar when I should have been studying for SAT. But I climbed up to here where I got 2240 SAT, 740+ in each subsection in a single and only sitting. I don’t know whether top elite U.S universities would consider my score as competitive or ‘good enough’ for an Asian international applicant and I can’t say ‘I had to do all these by myself! My family was affluent but I had no access to respectable private education without anyone helping me prepare for U.S colleges.’
When I decided to apply Stanford, quite a few people around me gave me cynical advices that my chance is so slim that I shouldn’t expect admission as an ORM international applicant with SAT lower than 2300 (especially without any international awards) I don’t think setting such policy that assumes all or most ORMs have access to more education and their environments are more study-promoting is fair. There are lot of ORMs who don’t have access to great private education for university prep just like poor URM students.</p>
<p>So unless university adcoms find a way to precisely differentiate those who had better academic environment with more access, I’m against affirmative action. For applicants’ academic rigor, adcoms can find out the accessibility through course information provided by the high school. But for standardized tests, they can’t. I understand adcoms’ situation and their motif behind the policy. Policy certainly has a goal of embracing URM students who lack access to education but at the same time, it can overlook ORM students who also lack access to similar education.</p>
<p>If people are assuming that affluent people are likely to have better stats, then wouldn’t it also be true that affluent minorities are likely to have better stats than non-affluent minorities? If this is true, would it not follow then that the group of minorities that benefits from affirmative action would be the subset that has lower stats - the less affluent minorities. The more affluent minorities might be likely to have similar stats to the less affluent non-minority, and already be in line to be considered for admissions.</p>
<p>Affirmative action gets the minority student’s foot in the door, it does not get him admitted. When a company is hiring, affirmative action is used to ensure some of the minority applicants are interviewed, but they have to make it through the interview and demonstrate their worth to get the job. The same applies to college admissions - if they’re going to consider an applicant who is outside the “normal” profile of students they plan to accept, there must be something else to cause them to take a second look.</p>
<p>Actually, the majority of people who benefit from AA are wealthy minorities who probably aren’t disadvantaged at all. It just doesn’t seem fair to me (not as an AA or Asian, but as a student) that such a system should still exist. And if colleges are still so butthurt about not having enough racial diversity, they would still get it in some form from economic AA, since minorities are disproportionately poor to white people. My school is really diverse so I have a lot of friends from all races and SESs and I feel the worst for poor Asians and Whites, since this system’s flaws ruin their chances even though they still deserve the “boost” compared to wealthy families who can pay for expensive things like SAT classes and study abroad programs and governors school and expensive ECs (sports, dance, etc).</p>
<p>collegebound8899, that’s most of what I meant and agreed on. But my situation is different. My parents certainly could have afforded expensive SAT tutor and other univ preparation, but I had no access to it both in Canada and in the city I’m from because most of respectable academies locate in the most populated cities. The universities would consider me as an Asian who had the best accessibility to education because my family’s income bracket is very high, but in fact, I didn’t. I’ve been always jealous of peer students from the same country who had all the access to private SAT academies both in their home and cities they study in. Most students who study in Boston got one of the best SAT tutor I know whereas I mostly self-studied.</p>
<p>@ hatesmus They definitely don’t assume that being Asian means you have the best accessibility to education. Asians are actually often 1st or 2nd generation immigrants, so they know that you don’t always have the same opportunities. Asians constitute 5% of the total population in America and 20% of Ivy League Schools. AA is mainly a method to ensure that the school can have a balance between students of all races without over or under-representing one race.</p>
<p>I’m an Asian international applicant from an East Asian countries, although I’ve studied in Canada over 5 years. The thing is, there are just so many high SAT scorers from my country that I’m probably behind the competition. Most of them studies SAT at local academies during school year and at their hometown cities during breaks which I didn’t have the chance. I would say a huge portion of those students are affluent enough because if their parents could afford their children 4 years of studying in US, they could afford expensive tutors. Virtually everyone I know who has gotten into HYPSM schools with my nationality got 2300+ SAT scores through the stereotypical rigorous private academies.</p>
<p>I got into Stanford this year as an unhooked (in fact, antihook) applicant…</p>
<p>@spaceduck. Maybe you should try reading it again more carefully.</p>
<p>@collegebound I agree with everything you wrote completely. One of my really good friends in high school shared your viewpoint. He ended up going to MIT to study math and is now doing his PhD at Caltech. He’s also AA, but I don’t think that matters.</p>
<p>@ccuser95 ok? how does that add the conversation besides showing off your accomplishment</p>
<p>A lot of you guys seem not to realize that colleges already DO take other things than race into account. They want to know about an applicant’s context, if they are low income, first generation, etc. So I would say that low income students are helped in the process already. I myself am a low income student, and my counselor wrote about my circumstances in his rec letter. </p>
<p>Why do you think Berkeley sends out a supplement to learn more about applicants who have been disadvantaged in some way? Because they take it into consideration. If you want a college to know your circumstances, write about, or better yet, have your counselor write about it. I say stop worrying about how racial AA is affecting your chances and start thinking about how you can improve your chances.</p>
<p>@DukeStudent12</p>
<p>Maybe you should stop crying about Affirmative Action which you’ll never be able to change and focus on representing Duke with your narrow-minded attitude on what diversity is</p>
<p>Didn’t know Duke produces ignorant graduates</p>
<p>can you all just read collegebound’s posts? As an actual “URM,” he has some very good points on this matter. Not only that, he tells us how URMs themselves truly feel about this system.</p>
<p>and please, do not bash others with derogatory comments.</p>
<p>@DukeStudent12: First of all, I’m an REA admit. So I hardly think I have anything to be bitter about…</p>
<p>@collegebound8899: I definitely understand and agree with your stance that AA is inherently racist, but I still disagree that different skin colors don’t contribute to diversity. Maybe it’s because I come from a community that just happens to have a large number of immigrants, but I know that different races and cultures around here haven’t really integrated together into one “American” culture in my city yet, and that my black friends (and especially their parents) have different values and mannerisms than my white ones, or than my asian ones, or than my Indian ones (admittedly I’m not friends with many hispanics, but there also aren’t many around… I’m from Michigan, shoot me =P ) Around here, where we’re all in similar income brackets, race certainly is a significant factor contributing to diversity; that may just be a product of my experience, but in my experience it’s certainly true. So understand where I’m coming from, haha.</p>
<p>(Plus we all eat different foods, and being exposed to new foods is good)</p>
<p>More importantly, so much more goes into college admissions than AA. Race is one small checkmark on an application. Why aren’t people complaining about the fact that colleges make you write several thousand characters in essays, read them, and pass judgement on your personality and character? That sounds a LOT more unfair to me than AA.</p>
<p>@stressedasian</p>
<p>My school is really racially diverse too, and I have a lot of friends that are immigrants, but maybe our experiences are different? At my school, I feel like the diversity comes from the fact that students are from different countries rather than different races. Maybe I’m biased because I’ve always gone to schools that are super diverse, so it sort of seems natural to me.</p>
<p>Like I said earlier, I don’t necessarily have a problem with the concept of AA, but I can’t stand the fact that other races are at a DISadvantge. But there is something else we need to take into account. Although it’s not as outwardly expressed anymore, minorities (mostly AAs) are still discriminated against in society as a whole. The unemployment rate for AAs is double that of white people, and it’s actually harder for a minority without a criminal record to find a job than a white person who has committed crimes. It’s really easy to say “discrimination doesn’t exist anymore” but it’s present to some extent. Does that mean that AA can correct that? Maybe, maybe not.</p>
<p>Also (I’m really glad someone brought this up), it really bothers me when people act like AA is the worst thing in college admissions and that everyone would have an equal shot without it. There are A LOT of other practices that are more unfair than AA, like preference to under-qualified children of donors, legacies, and athletes. And the whole essay thing with questions like “find the meaning of life” in 250 words. It basically just sucks as a whole; maybe we should just go to community college and be done with it ;)</p>
<p>@collegebound8899</p>
<p>While I find myself in agree with the points that you’ve stated, I have one question:</p>
<p>How should socioeconomic-based AA be implemented into college admissions, and to what extent?</p>
<p>I just want to say that you’ve brought up a point that most often ignore: I do not agree that AA should be used as a blanket for all minorities. If you are a relatively upper middle class or middle class URM and you have the same access to opportunities such as one’s ORM counterparts, there should not be a boost of “AA” being applied in that sense.</p>
<p>Although AA itself does not give the boost because it is a preventive measure to stop discrimination, AA does lead to a college’s pursuit of diversity, which allows for the boost.</p>
<p>In other words, do not hate the policy of Affirmative Action. It is simply preventive.</p>
<p>If you are against diversity or believe that merit is sacrificed to make room for diversity (which is not true), then hate/do not apply to the colleges that pursue it.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s worth arguing about whether Asians are disadvantaged in the college process; I think that it’s best to assume that, yes, Asians are held at a higher standard (as far as grades and scores). The important question is WHY.</p>
<p>In my opinion (and it’s just one measly high schooler opinion) college is meant to shape you into an individual capable of thriving in the ever-changing world, and from the admission standpoint, to construct a class of people capable of thriving in many different jobs. Ultimately, they want people who will make the world better (excuse the cliche). </p>
<p>In the workplace, you have to be able to communicate with people of different socioeconomic backgrounds, but also racial backgrounds. Different cultures have different ways of approaching problems, and familiarizing oneself with these different approaches is key, especially when looking at complex problems. Exposure to different cultures makes someone not just more thoughtful and understanding, but a better business person and colleague. </p>
<p>As a result, it’s understandable that a college would want a class of people that are diverse in every way: racially, economically, science-math smart v. liberal arts smart, musical, athletic, etc. </p>
<p>This is reflected in college admissions! (again, in my humblest opinion)</p>
<p>Thank you readyfor2014! Another thing is that most of the people against AA have never been a URM before. They have no idea how it feels to be in an environment where NO ONE looks like you. I am in Forensics, and when I go to tournaments, I am one of maybe four URM’s in a sea of Whites and Asians. Same thing with AP classes, Academic Decathlon, and other such top academic programs. It is comforting to look around and see someone your color or someone that looks like you. That is the bottom line. Racial diversity is important on campuses in part to make minorities feel more comfortable.</p>
<p>Discrimination still very much exists. Those who say it does not either refuse to see it or have never witnessed/experienced it because they are not the URM. Once again, a class being made up of like 25 percent URMs is not destroying your chances or “taking your place”. If the college really wants you and feels like you are a good fit, they will take you.</p>
<p>I do believe in affirmative action and diversity; I just don’t think race is the best way to do it.</p>
<p>Take my situation, for example. I go to a high school that’s around 40% Hispanic. Around 3% are African American, 7% are Asian, and 50% are White (non-Hispanic). The median income for the school’s enrollment area is almost $100,000. The average home value is around $300,000. The income distributes fairly evenly across race/ethnicity lines. To say that any given student is disadvantaged because of his/her race would simply not coalesce with the data. In addition, a relatively large percentage of students (of all races) have legacy ties.</p>
<p>I was born in a small province in China to a peasant father and a disowned mother. I moved to and grew up in Germany a year later, then relocated to the United States and started Kindergarten with no grasp of English. We weren’t rich for most of my life, making only a little over $35,000 a year for a family of four. However, relatively recently (around 5 years ago), my dad received a major promotion and now makes six figures a year.</p>
<p>Despite the fact that I’m Asian and now well-off, I still got into Stanford, so I’m not bitter or resentful in any way. But if you compare my history to the history of any given URM student at my school, it’s far more likely that I encountered more disadvantages then they. When a Hispanic student barely in the top 10% could get into a top 10 school in the ED/EA round, and both our valedictorian and salutatorian could not, there is clearly something wrong.</p>
<p>Just looking at race doesn’t reveal enough data to be meaningful; you can’t determine an individual student’s circumstances through group data. Even socioeconomic affirmative action would not have revealed the entire picture in my case; my dad earned his money through hard work and sacrifices, and to have that be a punishment in the realm of college admissions is ridiculous.</p>
<p>Is there a better solution? I don’t know. But to say that college admissions today is “fair” and “non-discriminatory” would be a flat-out lie. The system is broken, and the first step to fixing it is admitting that it is.</p>