The Magnitude of Asian Discrimination.. I mean Affirmative Action.. at Stanford Admit

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That’s one of the two reasons why I wasn’t going to go to Berkeley (before I heard back from Stanford). And I’m white. Imagine what the URMs are thinking. Well think about it this way. If you have 160 black matriculants per class, and you cut AA and then maybe get 120 the next year (rough guesses). I can’t imagine more blacks wanting to apply or attend if accepted (some may be discouraged, others may not want to apply to a university with dwindling black people). Thus the number will likely decrease, maybe to 115 the next year. At some point there will be few enough blacks that many will not want to attend the school. It may take five, ten, maybe fifteen years, but I’m thinking it would happen. </p>

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A few very minor ones. But like I said before, what educational purpose does a legacy/athlete/whatever serve? Undergrad is not just about the classroom. Grad school’s purpose is to educate and do research. They get the smartest people, even if they can barely speak English. Hence grad programs, especially techie ones, are dominated by white/Asian foreigners. </p>

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The current injustice is being born black or Hispanic right now. It doesn’t matter what happened one hundred or even one year ago for the Rawls egalitarian. What matters is that, now, no one in their right mind would rather be born black/Hispanic if the ultimate goal is to be admitted to a top college. It’s not fair to be born black/Hispanic when looking at the average outcomes. The white/Asian child didn’t deserve to have better opportunities. The injustice is that this unfairness is left unresolved (if not perpetuated by educational funding disparities and the like). </p>

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Diversity would not remain the same because less URMs would be admitted (and probably less would thus matriculate). This is the necessary result of removing a preference category. How much I don’t know. There are some studies (Espenshade), but I’m too lazy to look at them. </p>

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Necessary evil? All URMs that go to top colleges did, after all, decide to go there. I’m willing to bet many (if not most) knew beforehand how their achievements might be perceived by some. Their decision didn’t change though. How many URMs opt to not attend a top college because it is possible that they got in because of AA and will be treated as such? If it’s just a few people I’m okay with that, because the gains of AA would likely outweigh the losses. </p>

<p>Ideally we will soon live in a world where AA is not needed. I don’t think we’re too far away. After all, the kids of most URMs at colleges today will probably be competitive applicants (before legacy is even taken into consideration). </p>

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With the Court, there is wrong (legally wrong) and wrong (just, well, wrong). Which one are you referring to? </p>

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AA is just one small solution to the overarching problem of social injustices. After all, what about all those URMs who don’t even make it to high school? I think the problem needs to be tackled at a more fundamental level. But because this Nation lacks the will to do so, I’m willing to accept AA as one means to alleviate disparities based on race. </p>

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Create my own thread? Oh no, I have far grander aspirations. Maybe a manifesto.</p>

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<p>While there remains a very high level of atheist bigotry in America, secular thought is highly overrepresented at the nation’s top universities, both among faculty and the student body. There was a survey distributed to the Harvard Class of 1975 recently and for a group largely composed of individuals approaching near-retirement age (a very pious demographic), less than half believed in a god or supernatural force. If you do attend one of the nation’s most selective universities next year, you will almost assuredly be among a majority sharing secular outlooks.</p>

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<p>No, she did understand your post and it’s a completely fair criticism. It’s not necessarily wrong to be oblivious to your own blanket assertions, but it is an exceptionally imperious tactic to viscerally retaliate by citing a personal lack of apprehension as shortfall and miscomprehension in those who do understand. </p>

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<p>I’m surprised anyone would have the gumption to make such flagrantly irrational generalizations. Do you understand that the racially-based imperatives of the pervasive form of affirmative action, which you support, induces a greater representation of the lower class at practicing institutions since minorities disproportionately come from lower-class households? You seem to believe that the people lacking “class” at Stanford exclusively comprise the lower class (“These aren’t the rich kids. They aren’t the middle class either.”). Moreover, your assertion that “people in the upper class have class” is an unbelievably subjective and rash generality. This perpetuated mindset is classism at an exceptionally deplorable level.</p>

<p>Firstly, I frequently read (and have heard) the claim that students are dissuaded from attending Berkeley because of its ~50% Asian enrollment. But such contentions are embroiled in a glib hypocrisy. Sadly, it’s largely come to the point where we don’t flinch at such avowals, while we are conditioned to lament the bigotry of not wanting to attend a university because it may, for example, be 50% black, Hispanic, or some other underrepresented demographic. </p>

<p>Race and ethnicity for selective colleges boosts minority representation, on average, from 3.3% to 9.0% among African Americans and from 3.8% to 7.9% among Hispanic applicants, per the [Espenshade</a> and Chung](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/Opportunity%20Cost%20of%20Admission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20June%202005.pdf]Espenshade”>http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/Opportunity%20Cost%20of%20Admission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20June%202005.pdf) determinations. By contrast, according to a 2004 study (also cited in below paragraphs), being economically disadvantaged reduces, rather than improves, ones chances of admission at the most selective institutions. The study revealed that 74% of students at the top 146 universities (most of which utilize race-based affirmative action) come from the most affluent economic quartile while 3% stem from the lowest. (Source: Second slide of the study summary cited below) Utilizing socioeconomic affirmative action boosts representation from the 3%-4% representation of blacks and Hispanics derived from the Espenshade and Chung race-blind simulations to a 10% representation, slightly below the current figure of 12%. (Source: Sixth slide of the study summary cited below)</p>

<p><a href=“http://tcf.org/publications/pdfs/pb640/rdk_411.pdf[/url]”>http://tcf.org/publications/pdfs/pb640/rdk_411.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The Supreme Court, recognizing that past injustices cannot justify present injustices, has ruled that affirmative action policies may only be in effect so long as the aim is to advance the interests of racial diversity, not to rectify prior social ills. Despite the precedents of Brown v. Board of Education and Grutter v. Bollinger, affirmative action policies continue to reduce students to membership in either “victimized” or “privileged” races based on a checkbox response. Moreover, it assumes that membership in a given racial category endows distinct viewpoints and that skin color affects individual social experiences to an extent that is relatively constant across all members of that race such that it automatically entails a desirable intangible feature. In reality, a greater number of socioeconomic factors contribute to unique perspectives and experiences. Though systematic classification on the basis of race is regrettable, the central issue is that the trait used to evaluate them shouldn’t be indiscriminately assumed as a directly associable and causally explanatory variable in evaluating their educational opportunities. For instance, students identifying from family incomes below $20,000 score, on average, 381 points lower than those identifying from income brackets of $200,000 or more (1321 v. 1702). The average for white students was 1581, while scores for Asians, Native Americans, Hispanics, and blacks were 1623, 1448, 1364, and 1276, respectively. ([Source](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-08-25-SAT-scores_N.htm]Source[/url]”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-08-25-SAT-scores_N.htm)</a>) Palpable differences, but it’s poor analysis to immediately decry race itself as the entire story. [A</a> 2004 study](<a href=“http://cew.georgetown.edu/uploadedfiles/Rewarding_Strivers.pdf]A”>http://cew.georgetown.edu/uploadedfiles/Rewarding_Strivers.pdf) found that the most highly disadvantaged applicant is estimated to score 784 points lower (544 v. 1328) on the SAT than the most highly advantaged student on the 1600-point scale. Controlling for all other factors, only 56 points of that were found as directly attributable to race-associated components. Three hundred and ninety-nine points were imputed purely to socioeconomic factors, 228 were contingent on “factors within students’ constrained choice set,” while 101 were classified as “other.” The standard charge that non-support of racially-grounded imperatives represents an illiberal, ahistorical allegiance to an ideal is not so much of a reality as liberal defenders like to play it out to be. </p>

<p>A combination of disquietude on the part of whites and Asians, in conjunction with continuing immigration, will be the most complicating sociodemographic trends facing the current policy. Large-scale immigration complicates the policy’s ideological framework and foils the inceptive rationale which made the program politically viable nearly five decades ago, when it was enacted in certain sectors to provisionally benefit a small portion of the U.S. population. Even while the scope and grounds of the program have naturally progressed, those from overrepresented underprivileged backgrounds continue to be excluded. (This should be superfluous, but for the record not all whites and Asians are uniformly well-to-do.)</p>

<p>The combination of evolving demographics and symbolic political triumphs on the part of the historically underrepresented are largely perceived as shifts in the country’s racial balance, which, in turn, have inspired a greater racial awareness, particularly among those from other nonracial categories of disadvantage who are not included in the policy. Moreover, reverse discrimination cases on the part of white plaintiffs has been increasing. Lamentations of white victimhood stemming from the policy are often frequently dramatized; though minority students are, on average, admitted to top universities with lower objective qualifications, the white acceptance rate would only marginally increase in race-blind admissions, while Asians suffer the most <a href=“Espenshade%20and%20Chung%20(2005),%20p.%20299%20Table%202”>url=http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/Opportunity%20Cost%20of%20Admission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20June%202005.pdf&lt;/a&gt;. Nevertheless, it’s a rather inevitable sign that present “remedies” for institutionalized racism merely perpetuate more unfortunate racial hostility. In my opinion, such programs can either be phased out sooner rather suffering the end-results of a much more politically schismatic conflict later on. The real issue shouldn’t be the perpetual use of a racial preference category in college admissions, but programs that ideally and directly work to enhance parity in minority employment and income. That race-based affirmative action has been productive in addressing that is seriously lacking in any causally supportive data. Improved measures can be enacted, and genuinely requires more progressive taxonomic considerations of the admissions decision-making process, where factors of enhancement, entitlement, fiducial incentives, meritocracy, mobilization, open access, and unique institutional needs must be weighed against other prerogatives. As the policy currently stands, it’s a (non-effectual) bandaid fix and the longer it persists, the longer it will actually hamper an improved understanding of the true dynamics driving the academic, educational, and economic inequality among races.</p>

<p>You all are taking yourselves way too seriously. All of the data and research aside, no one changes their minds about AA on College Conficential so there’s no point in wasting your energy to try and persuade the townsfolk that the sun is red. It’s very silly to do such things on a public forum.</p>

<p>But, food for thought … </p>

<p>I am an African American male from a low-income background at Stanford University, admitted into its most competitive class in its history. Off of SAT scores alone, relative to that of my classmates, CCers would gasp and shout AA. But they don’t know anything about my other credentials, which many of you crazed scholars tend to neglect out of superiority of the almighty standardized test score. </p>

<p>I finished my first quarter at Stanford with straight As with an 18 unit courseload.</p>

<p>And I hope to own again Winter quarter … and Spring quarter … and then Sophomore year … and then Junior and Senior year! HELL, why not aim for Rhodes?! pfft</p>

<p>Confidential*</p>

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How is it a fair criticism? Can you tell me why? Go back to the post and tell me where I “stereotyped.” I triple checked, because I am only human and have been known to stereotype. But not there. Don’t call me out for defending myself against an unfounded accusation unless you tell me where in the post I stereotyped. No one has told me where yet. I’m waiting. </p>

<p>I don’t have time to read your entire posts and respond now because I need to go to bed, but what don’t you get about class? Basically by its definition upper class (/rich) people have it. There are, of course, a few exceptions (like someone who won the lottery a day ago). This doesn’t mean a lower class person can’t have class, which I made abundantly clear. </p>

<p>You’re making class out to be more than it is. Class is class. Jerks, losers, winners, whoever can have class. There is something desirable with class though. Because at the end of the day, I’d rather be around someone with class than someone who lacks it, other things equal. In that sense, yes I am a classist. I prefer those with class. Most people do, I think. I’m not a classist in the sense that I have a prejudice towards lower social classes, because I don’t- I just realize the fact that they have less class. </p>

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Yeah maybe we are. That’s a pretty defeatist attitude though. Although few ever admit to being wrong on CC, I know that I have made people think to themselves how dumb their statements really were. When I ask for a reply and don’t get it, I know I’ve won. That’s already happened once on this thread alone (still waiting, XrCalico).</p>

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<p>The relevant portion of your post:</p>

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<p>The contention is that being born as an African American or Hispanic (or, assumably, Native American) individual will inevitably be an “undesirable outcome” in terms of maximizing the prospects of admission to a (selective) university. There is absolutely no qualification or recognition that a greater range of socioeconomic circumstances contribute to privilege, neglecting factors that are genuine reflections of advantage like level of income, supportive parents, enrollment at an economically stable high school, residence in a hospitable environment, and so forth. While such does benefit Asians and whites to a greater degree than African Americans and Hispanics (or Native Americans), on average, it should go without saying that not all Asians and whites are well off and pleasurably nested in the lap of luxury. The contention is how can one can uncritically make a claim solely on the basis of ethnicity when a far greater range of socioeconomic considerations must necessarily be accounted? Without such a qualification, it is egregious stereotyping by indiscriminately labeling races as “privileged” and “disadvantaged” and reducing all members of this hypothetical dichotomy to those distinctions. It’s overly simplistic and colored by misconceptions. </p>

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<p>You seem to have an uncommon conception of what it means to “have class.” When an individual is said to “have class,” it almost exclusively means the possession of elegance, goodwill, or dignity; that is, features relating to merit in personal character or temperament. I have never heard “class” in this sense being automatically conferred through membership in a higher social or economic stratum. Namely, being of a particular socioeconomic class (read: social and/or economic echelon) does not endow class (read: honor, probity). Claiming so is a conflation of two separate denotations of the word. </p>

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<p>That’s not always a reasonable assumption. Oftentimes it simply means that people do not have the time or interest to respond (especially at this time of year with finals and holiday-related occupations), not necessarily that you made an unassailable argument.</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t call it a defeatist attitude. More of a positive statement aside from the normative argument of a utopian thinker.</p>

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That wasn’t my contention. I know that a lot of people would prefer to be black and rich than white and poor in this regard. But the exercise was that you didn’t know things like socioeconomic status, family condition, etc. You do know that, based on the statistics, that being white versus black would give you a better chance of being of a desirable socioeconomic status (which is probably more correlated to college admissions). That’s not a stereotype, it’s a fact. Not knowing anything else then (that’s they key part, I probably should have clarified), black is an undesirable outcome. Because not knowing anything else, in this scenario people would prefer to be white. </p>

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Not true. Again we are examining race, just that. Maybe to reach the best outcome these other factors must necessarily be accounted for, but we’re not going for the best outcome, we’re going for a better outcome. So unless you have something wrong with getting a better outcome, then we don’t need to account for those other factors right now. Race is a decent (aka better than nothing, which is all we need) predictor of academic success. Going off what statistics we provide these people in the thought experiment (how race affects academic success), their choices will match up and strongly favor white/Asian (not sure which one, although that’s a good thing to figure out). The insurance stuff is pretty self-explanatory from there. </p>

<p>If it sounded uncritical, it’s because you can look up the facts in three minutes. I said if you don’t believe me to look up the facts. I thought it was obvious enough that I didn’t need to provide them. I looked them up beforehand to make sure my intuitions were correct- they were. </p>

<p>Yes this exercise would work with socioeconomic status, and it would result in AA for lower-incomes. Arguably that would get to the root of the problem quicker. But I was defending race-based AA using this thought-experiment. </p>

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Omit “goodwill” and I’ll agree with your definition. Omit “goodwill” and the word takes on a whole new meaning. I don’t think goodwill is needed for class, and even if it I made it clear that I wasn’t considering it (I used the word “character” iirc). “Elegance” is also kind of vague; it’s really elegance in terms of style, tastes, and manner (plagiarized from dictionary). </p>

<p>Really this word, if you think about it, comes from social classes. It’s hard to look bad when you shop at Ralph Lauren or Nieman Marcus. It’s hard to not have manners when you’ve been told as a kid to put the napkin on your lap or shake your superior’s hands. It’s hard not to have exquisite tastes when you’re used to the best. It’s hard not to have dignity when you’ve received better treatment for years. </p>

<p>I like to think of it as how well a person will fit in at a benefit gala, for instance. If you can fit in, you have class. Simple as that. If you don’t have class, people will see right through you (trust me on this if you’ve never been in this position). </p>

<p>There is no explicit barrier to a poor-person being able to have class. All they need to do is fit in at the party. But then again that’s a pretty tall task to ask of someone who hasn’t received the years of conditioning the upper class guy has. So there are implicit barriers for a lower-class person to have class. </p>

<p>I’m not fond of wealth. I’ve seen it, lived it, and don’t want it (most of the time). But if there’s one thing I appreciate it’s that my upper-class childhood has made me a very classy person. </p>

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Yeah I was getting carried away and was half-joking there.</p>

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I completely agree with AA being a bandaid fix for minority upward progression. I don’t know if it works either in this regard. But from a social justice perspective, it is a step in the right direction. Again, this perspective is not a correction for past wrongs, but a correction for injustices in the current state of things (which is influenced by past wrongs, but that’s not relevant in my social justice world in that it doesn’t matter to the person deciding whether they’d rather be black or white what went on in the past; all that matters is the current state of things, and that’s all they need to know to make an informed decision.)</p>

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What is constant is their skin color, at the very least. I think I had some posts a while back dealing with the desirability of certain percentages of skin colors on campuses. This is actually a very tangible outcome. </p>

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In my book, accepting the positive status quo of things is defeatist. Yeah maybe it is true that no one listens to things here. But if I can make just one person agree with me (and thereby accept the correct perspective), then I’ve done the world a favor. What do I stand to lose? My dignity? Well you clearly weren’t paying attention earlier. I have class, and oh do I have dignity. </p>

<p>Am I the “utopian thinker” you refer too? If so I’m flattered, but that’s not me. I just want to make this world a better, and classier, place. Small steps count. I’ve already molded my brother to be just like me. It wasn’t easy, but months of torture really allows one’s soul to be shaped in whatever way imaginable. </p>

<p>Again I’m kinda kidding at the end here.</p>

<p>I would just like to add to this conversation that the “perceived” boost that URMs may receive in admissions is NOTHING compared to the legacy boost. I roomed with a legacy who had SATs 20% lower than any URM. We were all shocked…
Now, this is someone who contributes very little as far as diversity of thought or academic credentials but gets in simply because one of his parents were alumni. This doesn’t make anybody angry?</p>

<p>^First of all, one story of yours isn’t enough to go against hard data. You can’t generalize from one person. I’m a Stanford legacy, and I have a 4.0 (through one quarter of sophomore year). So if I use your logic then all legacies must therefore be just as good students as I am. </p>

<p>The fact is the two are pretty comparable advantages. I forgot what the specifics were, but your “NOTHING” assertion is wrong. </p>

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It does, it definitely does. Someone told me once that I “didn’t deserve to be at Stanford.” Not only was that offensive, but it was implicit that he assumed he deserved to be here. Does anyone really deserve to be here? </p>

<p>But this thread is about AA, not legacy nor any other debatable preferences given in admissions. If you want to talk about legacy I suggest starting a new thread.</p>

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<p>No, not precisely. But you’re right. You have nothing to lose and I agree with your argument. I’m just slightly battle-torn from arguing with those that oppose Affirmative Action on College Confidential because these discussions always go nowhere and just continue in circular tail chasing. This one seems to be going that route with nit-picky responses and data for days to support arguments that are out of our hands … well, directly out of our hands, essentially. </p>

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<p>I take issue with this for a couple of reasons. The first being that we continue to use standardized test scores as the pedestal for entrance to LIFE while neglecting the rest of the application. The second is that the school wouldn’t possibly accept someone who wasn’t capable of the work, nor would the school accept someone without the prospect of the student bringing future benefits to the school, short term or long term. Saying that someone was simply accepted because a parent was an alum isn’t very credible, and that goes the same for someone being accepted for the color of his/her skin. The third being that life in America is simply not fair. Anger is expected, but the question in the air is what can we do about it?</p>

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Nothing wrong with such detailed responses. This is how philosophy works. If just one premise is wrong, or one assumption false, the argument loses so much power. I’m also kinda enjoying defending this philosophy (“original position”, though I’m using a very crude version) here- I’ve realized some things that I wasn’t previously aware of, and I’m going to think about them for a while. It’s pretty interesting stuff. </p>

<p>I once decided to try and criticize John Rawls’ Justice as Fairness for my philosophy class. It was extremely difficult. John Rawls covers his bases so well it’s not even funny. Hardest essay I’ve ever written, by far. That’s one of the things that makes John Rawls a great philosopher.</p>

<p>I love Rawls too =D I learned about him in Polisci1 this quarter. He owns over utilitarians. Everything makes perfect sense. We truly are under the Veil of Ignorance as a society.</p>

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<p>I’ve been meaning to say this for awhile.
More people report themselves as URM to Stanford when they are actually mostly white or asian; this magnifies the perceived # of URM at Stanford.</p>

<p>I’ll use the example of someone who is 7/8 white and 1/8 Hispanic. I know someone with this racial makeup; he’s a National Hispanic Scholar.
For their census form (which determines the overall US demographics), they’re probably going to put white because that’s the most honest answer.
BUT, for their college app (which determines the Stanford demographics), they’re definitely going to put Hispanic because it gives them an admissions advantage.
When 200 or so people who are MOSTLY white/asian fairly claim URM, you end up with a higher reported % of URMs at Stanford than there actually are.</p>

<p>So therefore, I think that Stanford is actually more than 33% white and has fewer URM than it appears to have.</p>

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<p>LOL, I can’t believe after so long this thread is still going and you’re waiting for a response after I wrote “/further post for me this thread” already in my original post :)!</p>

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<p>Ouch, thank you for your high opinion of my post. In what you originally stated:</p>

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<p>What makes you think that every Asian or white student has a privileged life contributive to high academic performance? How can you conclude that all African American or Hispanic families are negligent of their children’s intellectual growth and needs? By a higher percentage, perhaps, but it’s stereotyping (definition: to simplify and standardize conception or image invested with special meaning) on your part to conclude anything on an individual basis.</p>

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<p>Actually, I don’t think the diversity of “culture” is represented by people’s skin colors but rather by the unique ideas different individuals bring to the campus as a result of their different life experiences. We need highly educated black lawyer, politicians, businesspeople, etc. to represent the interest of a significant portion of the American population, people who will be able to change the present gap in academic achievement and will more likely speak on the behalf of minority groups. I found your idea that black applicants are simply needed and given a suppposedly “huge boast” because of the color of their skin demeaning of the value and accomplishments of all the students at Stanford who are African American, and I further sought to point out that many who are African American in heritage do not even have dark skin, though their family and they themselves might certainly have been affected by well known historical circumstances. What you proposed seems a very cynical interpretation of college admission practices. </p>

<p>Moreover, as I said before and as many have mentioned after my statement, many mark down “African American” on their application when they’re only black to a very small percentage and do not even identify themselves as black in real life, a definite problem to the current affirmative action policies.</p>

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<p>On the contrary, top colleges are always looking for high achieving, low income students of any ethnicity, and low income students are underrepresented at top schools not because of some “lack in class” but instead because there are not enough low income students who are performing on-par with what is needed for admission to good colleges, just like colleges are always looking for underrepresented minority groups but there’s not as many as what would be desirable and reasonable.</p>

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<p>For some unfathomable reason, I highly doubt that “colloquial distinction or high quality in appearance, behaviour, etc.; stylishness” are factors taken into account in admissions :). Did they judge it based on the pictures that everyone had to send it? Also, if Stanford is looking for diversity, don’t you think that a diversion from “colloquial distinction” or “high quality appearance” may actually be beneficial in helping to set the applicants apart from everyone else having so much class?</p>

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<p>Oh I see. Darn, having about 50% of each class hailing from families with income >$200,000 didn’t seem to have done Stanford any good in gaining “class” :rolleyes:.</p>

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<p>Sorry, I had finals and a huge essay due that I still haven’t finished :(. And it’s the holidays. I can’t spend forever on CC and it’s not like you’re a prospective student needing immediate help filling out applications.</p>

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I don’t, and I didn’t. Please reread the original hypothetical. I said:</p>

<p>“You suddenly forget your race, class, intelligence, everything. You know you’re an American teenager applying to college. I tell you there’s a chance you could be black, and give you general statistics about black people (average income, percent in poverty, the types of schools they attend, etc.). I do the same with other races, such as white, Hispanic, and Asian. In terms of maximizing your chances at gaining admission to colleges, with no preference structures yet in place, which race would you prefer to be?”</p>

<p>You’ll see I give them stats about outcomes they can expect were they to be a certain race. If you go back to the original hypothetical, which race would you prefer to be in terms of college admissions? Answer that and maybe we can get somewhere. Answer that and see if you still want to accuse me of stereotyping. </p>

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That’s your opinion. But what you mentioned seems to refer to diversity of thought. Anyways in terms of feeling comfortable with how my race and others are represented, all I care about really is skin color. Everyone I don’t interact with could be manikins for all I care. Cynical? Maybe. But this is America. Skin color matters. </p>

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And as I’ve said before I agree that is a problem. The solution though is not to stop AA, as that will also reduce the number of people you might call “genuine” URMs. </p>

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Yes, but that’s not really relevant to what I said. If admissions saw a black and white applicant, other things equal (mainly academics and income-level), which would they prefer? The fact that they would prefer the black applicant indicates that skin color alone has some value in admissions. Maybe not much, but definitely some. I do though see some area for misinterpreting my original quote. I should have said: The universities who want “diversity” and don’t care in terms of “diversity” if a black guy is rich or poor obviously disagree. “Diversity” (quotation marks important) referring to skin color. </p>

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Yes that is the problem! BTW I use “university” in my original quote in the very general sense. </p>

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If they want that kind of diversity, then yes. But there are some kinds of diversity no one wants. No university I know of wants “diversity of criminal record,” for instance. Having many low class and high class people together in a university is not a good idea. The two types clash, and accordingly segregation will (and does) occur. Low class people will probably complain about how there’s too much class, and high class people will probably complain about the opposite. Instead of having everyone miserable, why not just make one group (the more appealing one, by most people’s standards) happy? </p>

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Not having class is very apparent. All you need is one classless person to ruin the aforementioned benefit party. </p>

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I never said you had to reply immediately. I never expected an immediate reply. I just think it’s customary to reply at some point, and I’m glad you did.</p>

<p>I’m sorry, but I thought we were talking about AA? That’s in the topic of the thread. Anywho, I just read a really great book on this very topic “Color and Money: How Rich White Kids Are Winning the War over College Affirmative Action” by Peter Schmidt… Here’s a synopsis:</p>

<p>Every spring thousands of middle-class and lower-income high-school seniors learn that they have been rejected by America’s most exclusive colleges. What they may never learn is how many candidates like themselves have been passed over in favor of wealthy white students with lesser credentials—children of alumni, big donors, or celebrities.</p>

<p>You can take issue with my story. Its true, but apparently it is nothing new.</p>