For Juniors, team points are only used for selection to the 3rd & 4th World Cup, PanAms, and World Championships; they disappear after JOs once the World team is selected. Rolling points are used for team selection for the first two World Cups, because the only competitions that would show up on Team Points by the selection dates would be the July Challenge. So team points are only really relevant from November (after the Junior NAC) through February (after JOs). A Junior could win the Div 1 Championship in April, and that would only count for Rolling Points.
@Corraleno: I know when the various points lists “roll off”/“age out”…my question was more about which list the college coaches care about…assuming that they are looking at Juniors and possibly making some decisions between JOs and SN/July Challenge.
FWIW, I think the number of Juniors who could WIN (and not just podium) a Div1 Champ is fairly small…and I’ll bet those kids are already on the radar of the coaches. If it was truly a Cinderella story…I’d think the coaches would want to see some other results to back up that one…so it doesn’t seem like a fluke.
@SevenDad In regards to the PM you posted. Those stats are iffy for HYP and other top tier schools. Being a sophomore, both the GPA and SAT can come up, that’s the good news. The bad news is unless they come up significantly, this student will fall into the dreaded no man’s land of scores: good enough to get you in consideration and maybe wait listed for the top schools, but not good enough to put you over the top.
Contacting the fencing coaches may help, especially with the C rating to make the fencer more attractive. And I would highly recommend contacting coaches - two of the three schools my (no rating, 3.91 uw gpa, 33 ACT) DD is deciding between are schools where the fencing coaches emailed back. But it should be noted the ivy and near ivy coaches she emailed never got back to her at all.
@SevenDad, the C-rated sophomore fencer with excellent academic stats, may potentially get admitted on merit alone, but unlikely be catching the attention of any HYP or other elite Div 1 coaches based on his/her fencing stats. Unfortunately because this fencer did not compete in any national tournaments, there is no way of knowing how much he/she improved this year and what position on the junior point list can be achieved. Success in small local tournaments will unlikely correlate with how well they will do at national tornament with many elite fencers competing. Since the HYP+ coaches will use the junior points to choose the top rank fencers from the 11th grade next year, it would be very important to have high junior ranking if he/she wants to be considered by those coaches. I’m assuming this fencer is not on the junior list, which means starting with this upcoming summer nationals, significant achievements have to be made going forward to make any meaning rank on the junior list. Majority of the current and past fencers who are recruited by HYP+ schools have by the summer before sophomore year, already achieved an A rating, well above top 20 on cadet list, and top half of the junior list. When they become high school juniors, they usually are top 10 cadet if not aged out, at least top 25 junior.
So if this fencer is still a C, or at best a B by the end of the junior year and no significant points standing, the HYP+ coaches will likely not show much or any interest.
However, there are many Div 3 schools and some Div 1, where coach support and even recruitment may be very likely for a B or C, even some D’s.
@SevenDad But there is no “Team Points” list for coaches to look at in spring or summer, because that list is gone. If you go to the US Fencing website and click on Current Point Standings, you’ll see that both the Team and Age-Out lists are no longer there — there’s just one list, which is rolling points. By the end of JOs there wouldn’t be any additional information on the team list that wouldn’t be on the rolling list anyway, and the rolling list will at least include points from the Div 1 Championship, which I would think would be relevant to a coach.
@Corraleno: Your post above assumes that coaches weren’t monitoring the lists in Feb or March (OR Oct or Jan, for that matter!).
But I’m not really trying to argue for one over the other…because in looking at the lists (which anyone can download at any given point in the year…and so have a record regardless of what is on the US Fencing website) with which I am most familiar…there really is very little difference. Maybe a few people switched places…and as BrooklynRye mentioned, the NRPS list contains the international fencers…but the top 10 in a given graduating class is pretty much the same regardless what list you look at…Team, NRPS before age out, after age out, etc.
But enough about the lists…let’s try to give the kid who PM’d me some more advice/help!
@SevenDad One additional point in regards to your PM’er. Our meetings with the HYP coaches, the top priority for them is the academic survivability of the recruit once admitted. Their other most significant concern was will the fencer continue fencing when admitted or leave the coach hanging missing an athlete. Therefore, many of the elite fencers who have attended all the nationals and many international tournaments, at the same time able to maintain top grades are what the HYP+ coaches seem to be looking for. When our fencer was a sophomore, we were fortunate that despite attending all the NACs and many international events and missing many days of school, he still managed to make up the school work and keep up his grades. It appears most of the elite fencers who currently are being wooed by the Ivy coaches have managed to get near perfect grades and scores, indicated great time management abilities. Unfortunately for fencing, unlike football recruitment, their AI’s have to be near the average of the admitted class.
I think, particularly at the elite colleges, that the academic piece coming from high school is assumed. The real question is whether or not the fencer can survive the rigors of elite college academics while balancing an equally rigorous competitive fencing schedule. For many top fencers there is at least some incentive to honor the commitment to actually compete in the form of funded equipment and tournament travel. Most competitive programs that respect and even encourage individual fencer’s desire to continue competitive fencing outside of the NCAA will be flexible as long as conflicts do not include Regionals, Ivies (if applicable), and Championships. There is a high rate of attrition among fencers moving into NCAA fencing. The large majority are quite comfortable getting off of the international, and even the national, competitive grid. Many used fencing just to get there and intend to get the most out of their undergrad experience without the pressures and distraction of elite fencing competition. Take any weapon/gender, go to junior year of college when fencers are all aged out of the Junior age division. Compare the list of top junior fencers to the current list of registrants for designated international senior and national DV1 events. The results may surprise you.
ummm, I’m thinking that the PM in #179 is on the renewed 1600 system, in which case 1520 is a pretty amazing score.
I think @chelsea465 may be right. It is an excellent score, especially for a HS sophomore…
I agree that this fencer’s SAT is an awesome score for a sophomore (and anyone else for that matter) and the AI would likely be within the acceptable range for an Ivy if other scores are within the same range. Since the fencer has aged out of cadet, the only next events eligible pending qualification are at the summer national Div 1, Junior and Div 2. Without any points, unlikely will qualify for Div 1 and junior, unless is able to qualify via other channels, as listed on the registration page. Also need to qualify for Div 2, but no points awarded towards junior rank anyway. This means that only starting in the fall of his/her junior year will this fencer be able to compete in a point eligible event without needing to qualify. However, if great results are obtained at Div 2 summer national, may still be able to attract the attention of some Div 3 coaches.
@quiksword…I don’t know that the kid has aged out of Cadet yet.
I think their mention of Cadet was merely that they had finished in the top 64 at their last Cadet event (last season…when they were also Y14 eligible?). If my assumption is correct, they still have plenty of time to make a good impression in their final year of Cadet (as a HS junior). If not, then your advice is spot on.
My bad! Somehow I assumed they aged out of cadet. But you’re right, many of the current high school juniors who are getting unofficial offers from HYP+ coaches are still cadet this year (aged out after the JO), and they are finishing off their final year of Cadet with very high ranking.
I am a junior in high school and fence epee. My birthdate allowed me to fence cadet until JOs this year. I have mediocre/ decent cadet results, and am ranked in the top 30. My junior and senior rankings are quite low (top 100 and top 120 respectively). I am an A16.
ACT: 35
GPA:4.0
PSAT:1490
Class Rank: I do not know
AI: according to goschoolwise.com, it is around 230
Extracurriculars (this category is lacking because of the huge time commitment that fencing is): TAG (talented and gifted) program, academic bowl team…basically it
Can you guys chance me for Ivy League fencing schools as well as Stanford and Notre Dame? Also, how do I know who I will be competing with for recruitment? Apologies if this has been answered
Thanks in advance
Hi @fencingdood! Without intending to be abrupt, there is so much information regarding everything you ask on this thread. Please take the time to at least skim this thread. I know that it is extensive but that is because a lot of work has been put into compiling this information, and a lot of intelligent, experienced people have enhanced this thread with some fantastic insights and information.
That said, your boards are stellar. Should your fencing stats not quite make the grade for recruitment at one of the Ivies or at Notre Dame, such scores might well help. Since you are apparently fencing cadet in 2017-2018 you have an entire season to improve your fencing, your results, as well as your ranking. More importantly, you have time to focus more on juniors and to improve your junior ranking. This is where most coaches will start their search for recruits.
Since you are looking to enter college in the fall of 2019, you should plot out the 2017-2018 epee rosters (male or female as applicable) of each of your top choices. You can access all of these with a simple Google search, e.g., “Harvard Fencing Roster”. Eliminate the seniors, i.e., those graduating in 2018, and you will have a clear picture of which schools are most in need of your gender/weapon.
As far as your competition, the most straightforward way is to look for those in your birth year; presumably 2001. This is not fail safe as there will be those with your birth year either ahead of you or behind you, but it’s a good place to start. In any case, if you keep your ears open at tournaments, you are bound to hear talk and will probably be able to get a sense of who your competition is and what schools they are targeting. Needless to say, focusing on the Ivies and UND, you are sure to have lots of company!
Am sure many others on this thread can provide more info and insights. Good luck and keep posting!
Thank you for the information. Actually, as soon as I posted, I went back into the thread and saw some answers. I actually fenced cadet from 2016-2017, with JOs being my last cadet tournament. I need to focus on Juniors as you said.
@fencingdood I believe Brooklynrye may have misunderstood you as a current sophomore. So unfortunately you do not have another whole year before being considered for recruitment. Most of the decision will be made after this upcoming summer national, and any “left over” spots may be available afterwards. So your fencing stats are pretty much set, unless you show some significant results at the summer nationals. I agree your academics are stellar. However the fencing stats may not be what the Ivies and powerhouse D1 schools would be interested in, since they are looking for fencers in the range of roughly top 25 of juniors (inclusive of all ages) I’m sure many of the Div 3 coaches would love to have you on their team. But the best thing to do now is the email all the coaches of school you’re interested in, including the Ivys. Many if not all of the elite fencers in the 11th grade have already contacted and have met with the coaches.
A coach at an Ivy League university told me that the recruiting cycle for juniors is over, and that he wouldn’t be able to help me with admissions. I will still apply to that school, but will my fencing appear less impressive to admissions officers if I’m not recruited? In other words, will not being recruited invalidate (to some extent) that part of my application?
@fencingdood Most of the Ivy coaches we recently spoken with told us they already had specific fencers in mind for their recruitment spots, that they are getting and giving verbal commitments now. So anyone else who were outside of their radar will be told there will not be any more spots for recruitment. This obviously will also depend on the weapon and gender.
If you are apply without have fencing as a recruitment hook and not supported by a coach, then it become no more than an extracurricular activity. Although it will be a significant one, since it will show to the admin committee how dedicated and committed you were/are.
@fencingdood You’re fencing may not be a huge hook for the admissions committee, but your 35 ACT and 4.0 gpa (uw?) alone could open some Ivy doors. You should also look into other schools which are just as good (or better) academically as some of the Ivies. Johns Hopkins and Tufts come to mind. If you are willing to sacrifice a little bit of academic reputation, the next tier (but still great schools) would include Brandeis and Haverford.
Best of luck.