^I can’t speak to Brandeis and Johns Hopkins, but after researching these two schools last year, I certainly disagree that Haverford is in “the next tier” from Tufts academically. I’m sure graduate schools might disagree with this assessment by Saharafrog. These two schools are very comparable academically and stats wise.
Thanks. The reason I am worried is that many students with scores similar to mine (or even a little better) are rejected, and fencing was supposed to ‘push me over the edge’ in admissions through being recruited. Hopefully, as @quiksword stated, admissions officers will see that I have dedicated a lot of time to fencing, even if I am not recruited.
Calm down magoo, it was nothing personal. I did say Haverford was a great school - and I was not taking into account graduate schools as the OP is currently a HS junior.
First some administrative thoughts/housecleaning:
Given how much work @sevendad put into compiling this fencing recruiting-centric thread, I think new posters/participants should read highly distilled wealth of information is read BEFORE posting a question. Most of the answers newbies are seeking have already been provided.
In recent weeks @sherpa, @brooklynrye, @sevendad and I (in some cases collectively and some separately) have received PMs from readers with “chance me” type questions. To be the most useful to the most people, some of these general questions are best posted to this public thread so our answers can benefit all who are following this topic. Specific questions about individual programs/coaches/personal circumstances may best be answered in a PM format and we continue to welcome these sort of inquiries, especially if negotiations are reaching a high level.
A review for those who have not read the whole thread. Inspired by recent questions asked by great students whose fencing is on a positive trajectory.
In my original posting to CC two years ago, I wrote that I had not discovered CC or @sherpa’s college fencing recruiting wisdom until after our son’s recruiting odyssey was over. In hindsight, I am glad this was the case as I may have been discouraged by those (experienced or experienced-in-waiting) who believe the premise that all academically-elite recruiting is finished early, and if a fencer doesn’t have a “commitment” while s/he is still in their junior year, they are relegated to “scraps” or DIII programs.
This was certainly not our experience. While I have posted all this before, the following is quick recap for the benefit of our newer readers:
At the beginning of our son’s sophomore year in HS he was only a C-rated fencer. His lowish rating was not so much due to ability, but rather because he split his time between fencing and soccer and it was hard to do both well.
As he had just started at a new HS, making the varsity soccer team as a freshman was a good way for him to integrate into a new environment socially. In our part of the world, fencing is a club sport and can be socially isolating. While his fencing stagnated, he really grew as a person by being part of a team sport that was popular at his school.
However after disappointing national fencing results in the fall of his sophomore year, he rededicated himself to fencing in January of his sophomore year (changing coaches/joining a more serious club). Being only a C with little in the way of junior points required a fair amount of catching up and we went to all the NAC/JO/SN he could qualify for.
With the more serious club/coaches, he was fortunate to have a number of top 32 finishes and achieved his A-rating with a national podium finish before the end of his sophomore season. He began his junior year around the top 50 on the Junior National Points List (JNPL). At this point, no D1 college programs, academically elite or not, expressed any interest in him. That being said, he began writing to coaches and received few responses and no encouragement.
Nevertheless, he was able to build on his momentum during his junior year, reaffirming his A-rating twice, and reaching the podium in several national events. By the end of his junior season (post SN), he was well inside the top 32 on the JNPL and just inside the top 10 for rising HS seniors on the list.
While my son had been regularly emailing the college coaches of the academically elite fencing programs throughout his junior year, he met most of them for the first time the day after his last event at SN (before senior year). Despite no early recruiting or non-binding commitments, he ultimately received 5 LL offers and was strongly encouraged to apply Early as a recruit at two other academically-elite schools.
It is worth noting that about half of those HS seniors ahead of my son on the JNPL did not end up at academically-elite programs. Without full junior year grades, a definitive pre-read cannot be completed before June/July before senior year. In my opinion, non-binding, early commitments (pre July 1st) are dangerous because the fencer and/or their families may stop looking before the process actually begins. Every year there is a risk of being a cautionary tale.
As I have written before, in our recruitment year the top fencer in our weapon was widely expected to attend a most prestigious Ivy powerhouse. When my son emailed this program to schedule a SN meeting he was told by the coach that he already knew who he was going to take, so it would be a waste of everyone’s time to meet at SN. While disappointed, my son moved on, but continued to update this coach with his grades, scores and fencing results. At SN, my son did not meet with this coach, however, the top fencer whom this coach wanted, to everyone’s surprise, announced his binding commitment to another Ivy powerhouse.
We were fortunate that our son had diligently kept this coach apprised of his interest, as a result, he was subsequently aggressively recruited and ultimately offered a LL by this program. In the end, our son chose different program, however, the lesson we learned was: regardless of all the non-binding noise, it’s not over until both the fencer and the school can make binding commitments.
Also in our recruitment year was a top-10 fencer who allowed it to be known well before SN that he had “committed” to a 2nd tier Ivy. While my son had initiated correspondence with this coach during junior year, he did not meet with the coach at SN, partially because we had heard the recruited position in our weapon had been filled. However, in late September of senior year (a few days after SAT results came out) the coach of this program called our son to offer him a recruited position on the team. At that point, we had already decided on another program, but we later learned that the fencer who “committed” before SN did not pass the preread and could not be recruited at that Ivy. He ultimately matriculated at a non-academically elite fencing powerhouse.
I am not rehashing all this to brag, but to caution those who may be counting their touches before they get a single light. More importantly, I want to give hope and inspiration to those aspiring HS fencers whose fencing trajectories are becoming steep and/or those who are a little a late to the game, but have great grades/scores.
Don’t give up until it is over. It can be done.
With all the recent discussion on the thread it is important to note that while great fencing results are important, for the academically-elite schools (Ivies/Stanford/MIT/Duke), it is equally important to have excellent grades/test scores.
Looking back at the process, the best advice we received was the following:
- Be a great student and take the most academically rigorous program that your high school offers. Try to achieve and AI of at least 210 (the higher the better)
- If #1 can be accomplished, strive to be in the top 32 of the JNPL (in your respective weapon) by the end of Summer Nationals prior to your senior year.
If you can achieve #1 AND #2, you will be in a strong position to be recruited by an academically elite college fencing program.
The rationale is as follows: Of the top 32 fencers (in each weapon/for each gender) on the Junior National Points List, about half of these fencers will already be in college, generally at top fencing programs. Of those who are not already in college, about half will not be academically viable for the academically elite universities. The top fencers who do not have the best grades will end up at ND, PSU, OSU, StJ, etc. (this is not a criticism or judgment, just what has historically happened).
This will leave the approximately 8 fencers (per weapon/per gender) in a very good position to be recruited at the academically elite schools. In any given year, each school’s specific needs in each weapon will vary, but the fencers in this pool will likely have multiple options. How these fencers handle this embarrassment of riches will allow the dominoes to fall for those outside the top 32.
Hope this helps.
@fencingdood - First, don’t give up. Things have a way of changing and nothing is etched in stone at this point no matter what you hear on the circuit. The recruiting landscape is very fluid, if only under the surface. There may yet be coaches, perhaps interested in your stellar academic stats, who will support your application short of recruitment. This is no small thing and you should be proactive in seeking out such opportunities as you maintain contact with coaches at all of your top choices. Second, in assessing the relative merits of academics versus fencing opportunities, the stars are not always aligned. Academics aside, Tufts has no meaningful men’s fencing program. Haverford and JHU have teams, but I would argue not as competitive as Brandeis. NYU is neither Ivy nor elite classic liberal arts, yet probably has the most competitive program of all of the non-DV1s.
Yesterday, the blog “Better Fencer” published “The Ultimate Guide to NCAA Fencing”. I haven’t read the downloadable guide, but did skim the accompanying article and recommend it to all aspiring college fencers and their parents.
https://betterfencer.com/articles/ncaa-fencing
Rogers is a graduate of OSU and an Olympic silver medalist (Team Saber).
Hey Guys, I am a high school senior going to college this coming fall. I just started sabre fencing for a month and it’s going pretty well. I’m fencing at one of the top sabre clubs in the country. I’m learning fast and I’m starting to take private lessons with one of the top coaches that fenced at PSU. I plan to transfer to a different school my freshman year. I am hoping to fence at a Division 3 school or a mediocre Division 1 school, specifically Johns Hopkins, Stanford, Cal Tech, MIT, or Brown. My coach says he knows a lot of college coaches he can put in a good word for me if I improve enough. My question is, during admissions, do the fencing coaches at these schools have any “pull” with admissions? meaning that it would be easier for me to get accepted?
Without any experience and tournament results, I think it’s unlikely you would get coach support.
Maybe you could walk on to a roster lacking in saber. Transferring to these particular schools is very difficult. Have you considered taking a gap year and applying early in the next cycle?
For any prospective NCAA fencers (especially non-elite fencers) out there, I wanted to share my son’s experience during the 2016-2017 college admissions cycle.
He’s currently a B-rated foilist, but was a C during the college application process.
GPA 95.6
SAT 720V 800M
He started touring colleges and meeting with coaches summer after his sophomore year - often times during SYC and NAC tournaments. Junior year he emailed about 20 coaches with a brief resume. I think as a non-elite fencer you really have to put yourself out there to get any traction with these coaches.
His Results:
Haverford - applied early decision and was accepted, Will attend. Visited campus twice - did an overnight. Met with coach at summer nationals. Coach offered admission support, but no guarantee. It was his first choice because he really felt like he clicked with the coach and the team; and of course, likes the college.
Lawrence University - accepted early action - Lawrence offers non-binding early action, but unlike most early action schools offers results in mid-December. It was appealing to have a non-binding acceptance in hand early… met with coach at a tournament, but did not visit.
UNC Chapel Hill - visited the college and coaches summer after his sophomore year and stayed in contact via emails and at tournaments throughout the process. Applied early action and was accepted. Notified early of his acceptance by the coach, but he had officially withdrawn his application.
Brown - He seemed like a good fit on the roster and was very interested in the school, because his older sister attends, but never really got any traction with the coach. Met with the coach on campus and at tournaments, but the coach never seemed to remember him or take an interest.
Air Force - Coach was interested. Put him on the recruit email list and invited him to a group recruitment dinner. He was also accepted to and attended their week-long summer recruitment camp Was okay with military, but concerned with academics for his area of interest.
JHU - He was interested, and reached out to the coaches multiple times to schedule meetings and visit, but never got a response. Did a regular college tour during a nearby tournament.
Stevens - Visited campus and coach early on during a nearby SYC. Stayed in touch throughout the process.Really liked the coach and what the school has to offer.
Cal Tech - Got really positive emails from the coach, and lots of encouragement from her during a NAC. Never got chance to visit.
Also visited Stanford, Duke and Lafayette, and met with the Vassar coach at a NAC.
Moral of the story: Start early, cast a wide net and keep an open mind…
I’m hoping to stay connected to this thread/group for a while. My youngest daughter is an E-rated Y10 sabre fencer. I really appreciate all the great information here.
@arwarw: Thanks so much for circling back with a snapshot of your son’s process! And I hope you do continue to stay in touch with the thread…to pass on your family’s wisdom/experience with others.
Thank you for the great recap and congratulations on your son’s successful completion of the process.
It is always nice (and good for the institutional memory of this thread) to hear how things have gone (both good and not so good) for followers of this arcane topic.
Looking forward to hearing more from others.
I agree with @arwarw that without any significant results, the coaches will unlikely show any interest, let alone support. If you only started to fence sabre now, which is the end of your senior year, it would be very difficult to acquire any meaningful skills or results by the end of this year. You’ll be on the same timeline as the current high school juniors looking to get recruited, since you’re planning to transfer to another school in your college freshman year. The schools you indicated all have very strong fencers on their team, who likely have fenced for many years. Although most may not be at the caliber of the elite fencers recruited at elite Div 1 schools, still I think it is safe to say all who received coach support have fenced for more than half a year. But who knows, if you are naturally gifted in athletics and somehow show some significant results by next winter, some Div 3 coaches perhaps may offer to provide some support.
Well I wanted to update everyone on this thread about my situation. As luck would have it, I had a good result (finally) in Division 1 Championships. My new rankings are just outside the top 32 on the JRPS and top 50 in senior team points. How much does this change my recruiting options? Is it enough to update coaches who said that the recruiting cycle is over?
Thanks
Also should I re-email coaches who didn’t reply to me?
@arwarw Thanks arwarw for your opinion. To answer your question, I’m not planning to do a gap year, as it is too late now. Like I said before, I still plan to transfer after my freshman or sophomore year.
I read results of the colleges your son was interested in and I have a few questions about specific colleges. For UNC Chapel Hill, if I have the grades to transfer there, do you think there is a high chance that I walk onto the team?
Also, I’m really interested in JHU, Brown, and Stanford as potential schools to transfer to. Right now, I don’t think my grades alone will help me get into these schools. I’d definitely need to get help from the coaches. The head coach and owner at my club has good connections with all of the coaches at these schools and he was the head coach at Stanford for 16 years. Added to my hardwork and fast improvement, the coach is willing to put in a recommendation for me to those college coaches. IF those college coaches support me, how much “pull” would I get exactly? I think for D3 and mediocre D1 schools, they don’t really care all that much about the sport.
@quiksword Hi, thanks for your opinion. If the coaches at Div 3 schools(JHU, Cal Tech, MIT) actually do end up providing support, how much support would it be? As you mentioned, the coaches will not be keen to offer me support without any significant results. Can you give me some advice on any tournaments I could fence in and what I could do to try and get the results the coaches want to see? I live in Massachusetts.
@arwarw Thanks arwarw for your opinion. To answer your question, I’m not planning to do a gap year, as it is too late now. Like I said before, I still plan to transfer after my freshman or sophomore year.
I read results of the colleges your son was interested in and I have a few questions about specific colleges. For UNC Chapel Hill, if I have the grades to transfer there, do you think there is a high chance that I walk onto the team?
Also, I’m really interested in JHU, Brown, and Stanford as potential schools to transfer to. Right now, I don’t think my grades alone will help me get into these schools. I’d definitely need to get help from the coaches. The head coach and owner at my club has good connections with all of the coaches at these schools and he was the head coach at Stanford for 16 years. Added to my hardwork and fast improvement, the coach is willing to put in a recommendation for me to those college coaches. IF those college coaches support me, how much “pull” would I get exactly? I think for D3 and mediocre D1 schools, they don’t really care all that much about the sport.
@quiksword Hi quiksword, thanks for your opinion. If the coaches at Div 3 schools(JHU, Cal Tech, MIT) actually do end up providing support, how much support would it be? As you mentioned, the coaches will not be keen to offer me support without any significant results. Can you give me some advice on any tournaments I could fence in and what I could do to try and get the results the coaches want to see? I live in Massachusetts.
@kevfu6789 Since your club coach was head coach at Stanford, I’m sure he will have a better understanding as to your recruitability, or even “supportability” by the Div 3 coaches. I know from past experience that JHU coach has a strong influence on admissions if he really likes you. But the fencers he recruited/ supported all have some kind of USFA rating, D or better, usually B’s. I do not think doing well at small local tournaments with small number of participants would raise the eyebrows of anyone. If you are able to attend at least the regionals, such as ROC’s and do very well. The summer nationals is this July. Unfortunately, most if not all of the event you will not qualify to compete, since I assume you do not have any national points or even regional points. But if you did train very hard, and somehow became good enough to compete at NAC Div 2 and 3 events in the Fall, and do well enough to stand on the podium, then I’m sure some of the Div 3 coaches will show some interest. But it will be very difficult to achieve that in only few months of fencing. However, if you are planning on transferring at the end of your sophomore year, then it will give you plenty of time to become good enough with hard work to be at a level to attract those coaches.
@kevfu6789 for UNC or any school you’re interested in, you need to google their roster, and look at the experience level of other sabre fencers. You can also go to https://www.askfred.net/ and look at the history of these fencers and see what level they were at their senior year in high school. You’ll want to look for rosters that have taken some unrated or D/E rated fencers in the past. UNC may still fit that bill. They carry a large roster, but my sense two years ago when we visited is that they we’re starting to transition away from taking inexperienced walk-ins.
You should also use askfred to find tournaments in your area. You’ll want to target tournaments where you have a shot of earning your rating…
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If Zoran Tulum (US Olympic Men’s Saber Coach) is your coach and indeed thinks you have real talent, instead of wasting your time and money going to a college you don’t want to go to. I would take the year off to train with Zoran to see how good you really are.
Under his tutelage and with some decent (NAC/WC) results, you will undoubtably be noticed by some notable college programs and the story could be portrayed as a Rockyesque college essay.
Of course, this would require that you really love fencing and are not just using it to get into college.