The Only College Fencing Recruiting Thread You Need to Read

Athletic Recruits
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To add to my post #359 (and to make it an even 360 posts — wait does that make this the real “College Fencing 360”?), note that to be officially considered a recruit (by the NCAA), a school has to add you to their “Institutional Request List”.

From the NCAAA site:

“An Institutional Request List (IRL) is a list of college-bound student-athletes who an NCAA Division I or II college or university is interested in recruiting. The action of activating a college-bound student-athlete to the IRL informs the NCAA Eligibility Center of the institution’s interest in obtaining an academic certification decision for the student-athlete. We will not begin your certification unless you are placed on an NCAA school’s IRL.”
http://www.ncaa.org/student-athletes/future/eligibility-center/what-institutional-request-list

Also found this (which confirms my assertion in post #359 that you have to register with Eligibility Center — though I don’t think you need to be completely certified — to take an OV):

“You must have a Certification Account with the NCAA Eligibility Center before you can go on an official visit.”
http://www.ncaa.org/student-athletes/future/eligibility-center/what-official-visit

In related news, one thing I’ve noticed this season is a rise in “Everything you wanted to know about college fencing/recruiting but were afraid to ask” seminars. Fencers Club in NYC has done a coaches panel for the past few years…but I just saw two new (to me) ones pop up on my FB feed — one held at Medeo in Bridgwater, NJ and the other hosted by Drew University (also NJ). Perhaps we’ll see an influx on newcomers to this thread soon!

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@SevenDad . thanks for continuing the discussion (especially for us newcomers!). I wonder how valuable those seminars are – I’d be curious to hear from anyone who has attended one. Is there more to learn than can be found through this thread or online materials? I will hasten to say that I have learned more reading through this thread already than other sources!
thx!

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@SpaceVoyager: I have been to the annual FC College Fencing Symposium (a few years ago, relatively early on in my daughter’s process) and did find it helpful — to hear the coaches speak to the issues themselves is always good. Additionally, they had both Div1 (mostly Ivy) and Div3 (NYU) coaches, so you got to hear the differences between how schools/coaches in different divisions approach things. I can’t speak to the other programs I mentioned…but both of the organizers/hosts have good reputations. Note that, at least at the FC event, only Seniors/parents of Seniors were allowed to ask questions directly to the coaches, due to NCAA rules on off-campus contact.

My involvement in starting this “reboot” thread last year was primarily that of compiler and editor. Sherpa, superdomestique, and BrooklynRye are the true gurus when it comes to college fencing recruiting, and I’m indebted to them all. Thanks to their expertise, insight, and advice, this thread is now the first thing that comes up in organic search for “college fencing recruiting”!

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By now, most if not all 2017-18 college fencing rosters have been published.

Unknown walk-ons, non-returning upper classmen are some of the inevitable surprises that happen every year. For junior fencers/class of 2023 hopefuls there is a lot to be learned about which programs will have needs in future recruitment years. With the 2020 Olympics just two years away, there are college programs that may have superstars taking 2019-20 off which may make the Class of 2023 recruitment year really exciting.

Also by now, the first wave of LLs for the Class of 2022 have been sent, with the second wave coming this weekend.

While the LL is the holy grail of Ivy League athletic recruiting, there are occasions where acceptance of LL offers are postponed/foiled by students waiting to hear from Stanford. In our recruitment year, some Ivy programs had to wait until the RD round to fill some of their top spots because their first-choice prospects were willing to roll the dice EA at Stanford (without a “pink letter”), instead of going with the sure-thing Ivy LL. In this regard, Stanford holds a unique/powerful position in the fencing recruiting universe. If Stanford gets a favorable EA yield with their fencing prospects, there may be some new LL opportunities late in the game (RD).

Nevertheless, hopefully the process is coming to a close for the HS seniors (and their parents) who have been following this thread (over 35K views in 15 months). We encourage this year’s prospects to add to the institutional memory of our thread by sharing the highs and lows of their recruiting odyssey once it has concluded.

Best of luck to all!

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Just to echo my friend’s comments above, please (please) share your experiences. Many of you have opted to reach out to the monitors on this thread privately with your questions about the recruiting process. Your unique progress through this process, your worries and concerns, your experiences engaging with coaches and programs, and just about everything you experienced are invaluable to those who will follow you in the process. Good luck to all!

366

“Parents-only” meeting with the coach?

Our child is a junior who is top 20 JPNL and we started looking at colleges (mostly D1) this fall with the initial contact and coordinating was from her. We had an on campus face-to-face meetings (fencer and us parents). With one of them in particular there was strong interest but we were told to forward some info on academics, etc. There was a request for us to contact later this year and come back and meet with some other fencers, etc. Since it is still early I do not believe it would be an official visit although if the timing were different (coming back after July 1 after junior year) I do belive an official visit invitation would be granted.

The schedule wouldn’t allow for travel back to campus for another visit between now (October 2017) and the end of this year. What are thoughts on a “parents-only” meeting with the coach during a road trip competition for the fencing team. It would be much closer for us. Apart from being within the NCAA D1 rules, is this an unusual request? We are of the opinion that is should be nearly 100% fencer speaking with the coach; however, logistics make it difficult especially with the holidays and school break coming up and on top of that some unpleasant weather into January and February. We are close on making a decision (dream school) and just want to clear some minor issues up before doing so. We do believe the coach would be pleased to do an early deal as well since there are results in two weapons which can be useful to a team, or so we’ve heard.

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Just to clarify, we would not be doing a handshake deal on behalf of our fencer, we would leave that special moment between them. As an alternative, I’m guessing these things could be cleared up with a phone call but some things are best left face-to-face.

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A little confused. You are saying that your daughter’s first choice wants her to return for another visit to meet with other fencers? The one that could be an official visit if post-July 1 next summer? However, you wish to be proactive towards a potentially early commitment by you (the parents) meeting with the coach of the dream school during a road trip of this school’s fencing team prior to when your daughter is able to do so on her own?

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Sitting in LAX waiting for flight home from Oct. NAC and I have a question for the group. It’s not even necessarily fencing-specific.

Here’s my question: At what point in the process is it prudent to tell non-family members/consiglieri where one is planning to go to college? And what do you tell people and who do you tell when?

For example, does an LL recipient make that info public the day s/he receives letter? (I don’t think they are supposed to, btw.) Do you wait for acceptance letter to arrive in Dec or can you say “I’ve committed to the application process for Ivy A.”

Unlike LLs, NLI signings can be a very public thing, so I’m assuming once the athlete is featured on high school website/local newspaper at his/her school’s signing day…the cat is out of the bag.

This question is prompted somewhat by what I thought were some obvious cues (and one parent telling me point blank about his/her own kid) as to what school various HS seniors were associating themselves with. Before anyone asks, I have good reason to think these kids were not “just wearing the shirt” from School X… :wink:

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In my experience, most parents play this very close to the vest. While the signing of an NLI and/or receipt of an LL are very public displays of commitment, nothing is truly etched in stone until the fencer is officially accepted. This said, recruitment can be a very heady, exciting time, and people just want to share. Can’t blame them. Other than embarrassment if the ‘commitment’ falls through, the main pitfall is a strategic one. By making one’s commitment public, you will no doubt close off most, if not all, alternatives. But even that is a minimal risk. If you are committed one way or another, word gets around and the lack of early application will tell the non-early schools you are committed elsewhere or just playing the field. If you are not committed, then there is nothing to divulge as you enter broader marketplace with hopes perhaps, but otherwise uncommitted. Personally, without taking out an ad in the local paper, it was great fun to chat with good friends and most were pretty forthcoming about their commitments. Personal preference in the end, I think…

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I am glad I am not the only one who was confused by @hookedonphonics1‘s post.

Initial questions:

  1. Is the program you are hoping for an “early deal” from an academically elite or non-elite program?
    If the former, without any meaningful academic milestones, it may be difficult for coaches to give any sort of actionable encouragement unless your daughter is a truly exceptional fencer (future Olympian, top 5 or better on the JNPL, etc.).
    If the latter, it is still very early. Why rush if the dominos at the academically elite programs have yet to fall?
  1. Are you asking is whether it is okay to meet with the coach of your daughter’s "dream program" at a competition to have a “parent-only” conversation so you can negotiate the terms of her admission eight months before a binding commitment can be made? Is this what you are asking?

It is worth noting the examples of early deals and parents negotiating terms are rare and occur only in cases where the fencer in question is at the absolute top of his/her classification. If this is your situation, congratulations and you should PM @brooklynrye to learn the nuances of closing the deal.

However, if that is not your situation, as I have written many times before, it is not wise to close your fencer to any opportunities before a binding commitment can be made. It is still a long way from home.

Clarifications:
An OV can only be made in a HS prospect’s senior year while school is in session. Anecdotally, most of the top recruits, especially those who know who their dream school is, will make binding commitments before an OV can even take place (meaning July/August before senior year) and the OV is not taken/necessary. If you are a top recruit taking OVs, it probably means you have not decided on your top school yet, or you may not have been in a school’s first wave of LLs.

All this being said, we didn’t take any OVs, but made many unofficial visits (most after July 1st, but a few before).

Happy to answer more clarified questions.

The thread has been so quiet recently eventhough two waves of LLs for the Class of 2022 have been distributed. Hopefully fencers and their parents are being conservative with their information and/or good fortune.

To answer @sevendad’s query, while I have come to believe a LL is as good as a letter of acceptance, we did wait until December 15th to share officially with non-family members and acquaintances. That being said, news travels fast and it became relatively well-known amongst the fencing community where our son was going soon after the LL was received.

With regards to an NLI, I am not sure if an NLI is a guarantee of admission, or an agreement of financial support if admission is granted. I think it is the latter, but could be wrong. It would be important to make sure about this distinction before moving forward with any announcements.

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@superdomestique: Yes, the NLI is the financial support doc (not any promise of admission) — but for fencing, I think it’s safe to assume the prospects are going to be academically admissible (which is not always the case for the big money sports).

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Thank you for such a helpful and informative thread. Is there such thing as coaches support without financial support (or being a top recruit)? At which schools, and how would one approach a coach about this? This would be for a fencer with very strong academics and extracurriculars outside of fencing, but who might not be high up on the junior points list. Also, there seem to be two different lists for Jr points - what’s the difference between Jr rolling points and Jr Team points?

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Welcome to the thread, Picklish!

Coaches will offer support for a fencer who is not a top recruit, but it is usually under narrow circumstances.

First, will almost certainly require very high academics. This lends value to the team from other than competition.

Second, in most cases (unless the fencer is being recruited solely for academics to permit recruitment of a better fencer with lesser academics), there has to be some level of fencing status, e.g., at least top 50 on the Rolling Points list, on which a coach justifies the competitive recommendation.

Finally, this all assumes that the coach does not meet his wish list of recruits through more customary channels based on top ranked/top academic candidates.

The Rolling Points list runs continuously from one season to another with points from each event ‘rolling’ off when that event recurs in each subsequent season. The Team Points are activated after a given number of “designated events” occur in each weapon/gender. These Team Points then determine eligibility for remaining designated events that season as well as, ultimately, the members of each World Team.

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On the topic of providing support, it seems that some of the top schools have a set number of athletes for which they can provide “full support” each year, which may be distributed amongst the different weapons given the current need. Is this the case? Does anyone know they number of athletes which can receive support annually? I assume it varies by school, but are the Ivy’s different from others?

It also seems some schools can provide “partial support” or a “recommendation” - probably to athletes that are maybe not the top few in any weapon, but probably have strong academics and could probably get in on their own.

My son is probably in the top 10 in his weapon (but #10) in his Junior year, but his academics are very strong. I would hope that’s a pretty good hand to hold as he enters the recruiting process this year.

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“Does anyone know the number of athletes which can receive support annually?”

From what I understand, this does vary from school to school AND from year to year within the same school. Checking rosters to see what needs they might have during your recruiting window (how many seniors in weapon/gender are graduating) is wise.

The “partial support”/“recommendation” (vs. full recruiting slot) issue has been discussed here (and in the general athletic recruiting subform) a bit. Seems like a lot depends on school/program/coach. Not a bad idea to ask coach point blank what the history of applicants that received this level of support was…how many were admitted/how many were not.

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I think there is an agreement amongst the Ivy League schools that places a maximum on the number of LLs than can be awarded each year (300?). Of this maximum number a large portion (240?) are used for athletic recruits.

How these athletic LLs are allocated between sports is determined by the school’s AD and may change year-to-year depending upon a specific school’s institutional priorities.

In recent years, some schools, notably Brown and Yale, have publicly stated that not all their athletic LLs are awarded. This may be illustrative of these school’s commitment to athletics, however Brown and Yale’s recent dominance in men’s lacrosse may indicate a change in institutional priorities within athletics.

With regards to fencing, I think the coaches have different weapon/gender needs every year and possibly a varying number of LLs to award. Obviously, the LL is the ultimate in Ivy athletic recruitment and there is some disagreement over how influential a coach’s recommendation/support is with admissions short of a LL.

Personally, I am in @sherpa’s camp that once a coach is out of LLs, he/she has very limited influence on admissions. I know @brooklynrye disagrees.

I guess the problem is, the prospects that do not get admitted despite having coach support (but no LL) rarely feel like sharing this experience.

Hopefully this year’s class of recruits can provide us with insight as to whether this level of support is helpful or not.

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Given that there may/may not be influence beyond the LL, do you think most fencers would be welcomed on a Div I team if they were able to get into the school on their own? I’m talking about an A-rated fencer on the lower half of the Junior Points List, top 8 NAC finishes, international experience, etc.

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Hi, Rollhigher.

When you originally posted that your son “is probably in the top 10 in his weapon (but #10) in his Junior year” are you referring to rank solely among those in his recruitment year or literally top 10 on the JPL for his weapon?

If the latter, with strong academics, you are in great shape for recruitment. Historically, the top 3-5 go first and you may have to wait on your first choice, but you will almost certainly be among the elite recruits.

If the former, you are playing a slightly different game. Fencers who excel across all age groups have some cache and will most likely be ahead of you in line. This is largely cosmetics as your son’s rank could be in the 50’s, but still top 10 in his recruiting class. As a fencer who’s top ranking is limited to his recruitment class, you are still in good shape, but perhaps not as early a recruit as you might like.

In any case, solely in the abstract, a top 10 fencer with strong academics will certainly have a shot at a DV1 team. This all depends on the needs of each team as well as your personal wish list. The ability to get into the school solely on one’s academic is a great asset as it renders you independent of recruitment. But if your son is a top 10 or better, with strong academics, the LL is a real prize.

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@Rollhigher Is your son interested in fencing at a particular D1 school (no need to name it if you don’t want to) or is he interested in fencing D1 and will be flexible as to the school?

If the former, research the fencers currently on that team and see what types of ratings they have. If most of them at your son’s weapon are C,D,E,U, then I’d imagine the coach would very much be interested in having your son try to walk on.

If the latter, he may need to cast a wide net by sending out emails (at least semi-personalized) and fencing resumes to many coaches. He should let them know he is interested in fencing at their school and wants to know about walking on/trying out for the team.

I think a fencer with an A rating and good finishes at NACs would interest at least some of the D1 coaches out there.

One other thing, if an opportunity for fencing in college is the goal - don’t discount the D3 schools. There are some good programs out there.

Best of luck,
–S.F.