@stencils: I think BrooklynRye is the board’s resident expert on this topic.
Had fun spectating at the Philadelphia Invitational this weekend. I don’t know if this is scientifically verifiable, but I do believe college fencing meets are more odiferous than NACs.
http://www.ncaa.org/championships/national-collegiate-fencing
The above site will give you a link to the basis for assigning Power Rankings to each NCAA fencer. These are pretty much seeding factors but can be used as tie-breakers in determining berths at NCAA National Championships.
The rest of the formulae are pretty opaque, but you asked…lol
The basic formula for NCAA Championships selection is: (V/B x SSF) + (0.4 x ISF) = FSF
Where V = total victories, B = total bouts, SSF = Season Strength Factor, ISF = Individual Victories Strength Factor, and FSF is the Fencer’s Seeding Factor.
For purposes of an NCAA Championships berth, the FSF weighs 40% and the fencers results at his/her divisional championships weighs 60%
Breaking down the components of the formula:
Season Strength Factor (SSF) = 60% of bouts against fencers with the higher power ratings. So if a fencer has 25 bouts, you take the top 15 relative to each opponent’s Power Rating.
Individual Victories Strength Factor (ISF) = 50% of victories against opponents with the highest Power Ratings. Note that as opposed to SSF which counts all bouts, win or lose, this factor only applies to victories. So if a fencer has 40 bouts and won 20 of them, you take 50% of the 20 victories based on the highest Power Ratings among the opposing fencers.
General qualification rules:
18 regular season bouts
Compete in 50% of team’s regular season meets
Regarding divisionals (some refer to these as “regionals”), the winner of each regional is auto-qualified for the National Championships. Places 2-10 are eligible for berth. Once you are outside of the top 10 at your regional championship, the only way to get a berth is via the “fencer at large” route which is where Power Ratings come into play. Basically, you’re a really good fencer who had a bad day at regionals.
How does that sound, my friend…? :o)
Thanks @BrooklynRye that’s part of it.
But it looks like the data is hidden in that there’s no way for the public to see the bout-level results from duals or current FSF/SSF/ISF? The only data at the NCAA link is prior-season’s end of season FSF #s.
@stencils - I believe that NCAA coaches have a proprietary system that allows them to track in real time. A non-coach can guesstimate (I can even send you a Power Ranking Excel worksheet), but it is very difficult for a layperson to follow this on a current basis.
At recent NCAA tournaments, I was struck by how quickly coaches moved on from 2022, and are now fully focused on recruitment for 2023. And so another intense round of recruitment begins…
As we all share our experiences, information and, hopefully, a bit of wisdom on this thread, it remains rare to find posts relating to negative experiences and/or disappointing outcomes. Of course we wish everyone a stellar recruiting experience and acceptances at top choices. However, we all know that the reality of this process can be and is often quite different. There will be disappointment running the gamut of, rejection at one’s first choice school, settling for a less competitive fencing program, to being shut out of the recruiting process altogether. Expectation management and disappointment are often related. The primary intention of this specialized thread is to help guide the former to avoid the latter.
Unlike typical college applicants, we in this niche group all start with fencing. At whatever level you start, be it top 10 on the Junior USFA Points Standings, a medalist at NACs, perhaps even at international designated events, or those at levels of competition and accomplishment other than this, we begin the recruiting process with the reality of our ranked and rated position. On this plane alone, we deal with the realities of which schools on our list are recruiting which weapon/gender in our year. Sometimes there is a perfect match. Sometimes the timing is just off.
Then academics come into play. Pre-reads will show the strengths and weaknesses in the academic record. An elite school may very much desire a top 10 recruit only to find that the standardized tests are lacking. The formula of great fencing results and strong academics does not always result in a Golden Ticket. There may be issues of ‘chemistry’. Current teams are often asked to evaluate (or even to literally vote!) on prospective recruits relative to the existing team roster. Sometimes, skill and grades aside, the match is just not there for the team. This is all part of the shuffling and re-shuffling of the recruitment deck. As @superdomestique often notes, early recruitment may cause fencers to end their search prematurely (spiking the ball before crossing the goal line), leaving an opening for miscommunication and disappointment. Circumstances may result in a fencer lower on the recruitment depth chart nabbing a coveted spot because someone higher up passed, was slow to act, or couldn’t make the academic cut-offs. It is never over until it is over!
For those ultimately successful in recruitment, it is easier to share the more challenging elements of the process. However, for those disappointed with the outcome of the process, this is much more difficult to share. However, it is exactly these experiences that are perhaps the most valuable to followers of this thread, both present and future. Was the disappointing outcome due to unrealistic expectations or errors in navigating the process? We don’t expect parents and fencers who may be disappointed with their recruitment experience to post, at least not initially. However, there have been several posters touting tremendous early recruitment potential from whom there has been no follow-up/updates. Were they successful in the process and simply got what they needed from this site? Or, perhaps, were they less than successful and see no upside in sharing? Disappointment does fade and time provides perspective. Perhaps down the line, insight into what went wrong will be of use to future recruits. To whatever extent those who suffered disappointment are able to share their experiences, it may well act as a cautionary and advisory tale for those who will follow you in the process.
I have decided to post my experience in the recruiting process to reciprocate the aid I have received, but also in the hopes that someone might find this useful.
Oftentimes, I concerned myself, as an applicant, far too much with the “me” factor. Am I good enough for this team? Do my grades pass the standards? Will I fit in with this squad? It’s completely understandable. After all, it is the applicant who brings their chips to the table. They’re the deviating variable in the collegiate equation. I was suffocated by the constant polishing of the flawless résumé. Perfect could be made better. But often overlooked is the college deck itself. There are factors that applicants cannot account for, which oftentimes are overlooked in our nigh obsessive fascination with the self.
I’d like to provide a personal anecdote, one that addresses the prior notion. I fit the criteria (in my humble opinion) with my initial first choice. I had the grades, the results, even the coach said he would have given me an offer. But what didn’t align was the right deck. The college was stocked to the brim with fencers of my weapon. To my dismay, my offer was passed up in favor of recruiting fencers in other weapons. And as unfortunate a prospect as it is, even strongly qualified applicants sometimes don’t/can’t get into to the college of their choice, echoing @BrooklynRye 's sentiments in Post #504.
I had been so engrossed in molding the perfect image of me that I was devastated when I was turned down. What was wrong with me? Where did I mess up? The failure was embedded deep in my mind, plaguing me for weeks with a miasma of shame. I could never really grasp that it wasn’t my fault that it was the college’s quota that was the impediment. It’s a grim reality that we have no control over, but by no means does it suggest that the applicant should abandon hope. I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It never hurts to take your talents elsewhere. I found it best to pack up my bags (albeit begrudgingly) and move on in the college search.
That leads me to my next point, and that is following your gut instinct when making your decisions. I was later given offers from several other universities. However, the coaches imposed very strict deadlines, meaning that I would have to make a hasty decision without even getting to look at some of the other schools. I spent many sleepless nights weighing my options, counting down the dwindling number of days until I would have to send the dreaded emails. I ultimately turned down all the universities sans one, some which could have given me LLs, and turned my attention to a particular institution. It didn’t offer a LL system, instead asking its applicants to undergo a different process in order to become an official recruit.
In retrospect, the entire process was a risky endeavor, and I was very lucky to get in. I passed up what was nearly a guarantee (as the coaches themselves said I would have been approved for a LL without a doubt) for a haphazard shot in the dark, which could very well have resulted in me losing all my options. But when presented with the choice, I listened to my gut in making this decision, which I felt paid off well in the endgame in an emotional and literal sense. Following your heart is something I recommend doing when considering these monumental and pivotal four years in your life (or your child’s life, depending on who’s reading this). You never know where you might find yourself (or your child), and you will likely be happier having acted on your accord rather than forced by a coach’s hand.
Best of luck to the rest of the incoming Class of 2022, and to everyone else further down the road.
Tl:dr Don’t let a single failure get your all hopes down and follow your gut instinct.
hUp: Thanks so much for sharing your story and congrats on a great outcome despite it not necessarily being where you initially envisioned yourself. Best of luck with the rest of the USA Fencing season and next year in NCAA competition.
I have children too young to have experienced any of this, but have I witnessed some disappointments from afar. At the top end where fencers end up seems sometimes to be due to many factors beyond his or her control. And I really think too many parents push their children in the sport in the belief fencing is some magic key to the Ivy League.
I’ve told both my kids repeatedly not to fence for college, but for themselves. Then they will be happy with their high school journey regardless of what college they end up at.
Unfortunately life is full of disappointments. But without trying and not having high goals, one can only hope for mediocrity. Those top end fencers, yes, have been pushed by their parents to be the best they can be, and certainly with the hopes of being recruited at “top end” colleges as well. But it goes without saying that most elite athletes, not only fencing, have been pushed by their parents, especially when they were young, when they are easily distracted and discouraged. Fencing for the sake of fencing and treating it as an extracurricular activity is fine, without putting any undue or additional stress on our kids. But, if the fencer’s elite talent starts becoming more apparent, then the support of the parent as well as the coach I think is only appropriate for them to be pushed/“encouraged”. Then why not for these athletes to have certain colleges as their goal? Since unless you have money and time to throw away, fencing 4 to 5 nights every week, spending thousands for private coaching lessons, and attending national and international tournaments, and countless hours of driving them to lessons, all these would be sheer crazy endeavors if it was all done just for fun without any specific goal in mind.
But for the so called less than “top end” fencers, fencing for themselves, competing mostly in their school varsity team and regional events and a few national ones, and “without” the need for spending the thousands, I think these are the situation where unfairly pushing them is the wrong approach. Yes, they should be happy with their high school journey, and not get stressed about aiming for the powerhouse Div 1 one schools, since it will most likely lead to disappointments.
Hi everyone. I started fencing this year (9th grade), and am on my school’s varsity team. We compete against other teams in the area, and go to various tournaments. I am an okay/good fencer, but if I improve, will I have a chance at getting recruited for it in college? I’m wondering if I have to fence outside of school to even be considered by a college coach. Thanks so much!
Congrats on fencing varsity your freshman year! I may have more questions than answers, but I’ll try to offer as much as I can. When you say you are a “good/okay” fencer – are you comparing yourself to other varsity team members, junior varsity members, or nationally ranked fencers in your gender and weapon? What is “okay/good” – can you be more specific? Are you on the national rolling points list?
I do think prospective recruiting coaches want to see performance in a field larger than school varsity fencing. So I would say, fencing outside of your varsity team makes sense if you are are thinking of possible recruitment. If you are enjoying the sport, you would probably be looking for additional outlets for fencing anyway, since school fencing is a bit limited in both frequency of events and the competitive field, so participating in local tournaments and/or joining a club in your area might be a good start.
Hi @figuresk8school ! Welcome to the college fencing thread!
I’ll add on to what fencingmom said above. “Getting recruited” means different things to different people, and also means different things based on the schools you are interested in. There are over 45 NCAA colleges and universities with a fencing team. Some of these only have a women’s team.
The short answer is for the best fencing schools and the Ivy league, you would certainly need to fence outside of your school, compete regionally and nationally, and get quite good to hit the level that these schools will consider for recruiting.
However, if you’re just curious about opportunities to fence in college, then, as in the case with all sports, across the 45+ schools there are teams with different skill levels. There are quality colleges with fencing teams that would welcome someone on the team who has any competitive fencing experience, especially some of the NCAA division 3 teams.
For a full list of colleges with fencing teams, use this link: http://web1.ncaa.org/maps/memberMap.jsp
Select either men’s or women’s fencing in the “Sport” list and hit GO.
Most of all, if you are enjoy fencing, make sure you keep it fun for you!
I must sound like a Pollyanna but I do think children learn most when they drive themselves, rather than do an activity because they are being pressured by someone else. Yes it can make some kids world-class, and it can also break others along the way. I say this as someone who was pressured myself to do an activity, in my case classical piano, many hours a day, and who knows many kids who were pressured to do the same. It didn’t break me, and I racked up the awards. But I don’t think I learned as much from the experience than I could have. And the pressure wasn’t good for some of my friends. I do know nationally ranked top fencers who did everything required, the entire way, voluntarily because they loved the sport that much.
I think that @toandfro points to one of the most delicate balances a fencing parent must strike. When they are young, we target possible extracurricular sports, find coaches, clubs, do all the scheduling, driving and (of course) paying. As they get older, more and more of the responsibility should shift to them. This is particularly true for those traveling on their own. At my son’s very first fencing tournament, I went out on the strip with him for his first pool bout to help him hook-up. His coach wagged his finger at me and said, “He has to learn to do these things for himself.” It was a lesson I took and continue to take to heart. At times it aches me that I am no longer at every event, that I can’t be present in all things fencing. But then I watch my son travel around the world on his own, managing flights and shuttles, all manner of foreign currency and distant languages. I watch him take care of his equipment, wiring blades, mending his knickers. And I think back to that first tournament and I realize that my involvement is not nil, it’s just different. I am less involved in the minutiae and more engaged in his joy and sorrow, and in his process. I am more engaged with my son as an adult, who has embraced his sport as his own and has become an amazingly independent young adult.
@figuresk8school: First and foremost, welcome to the sport!
I’m the parent of a kid who started with USA Fencing-sanctioned events, then did both USA Fencing and high school scholastic league events, and now who back to focusing on USA Fencing events again. She was recruited by a few Div1 fencing programs and will fence for one next year.
I have seen kids who only did scholastic events go on to fence for college teams. I think stencil’s post #511 point is spot on though…if you define “getting recruited” as coaches from national title contenders and/or Ivies proactively reaching out to you, I don’t think that is going to happen unless you start fencing (and doing well in) USA Fencing events like NACs, ROCs, etc.
Here’s an example of why:
My daughter was the league’s dominant fencer in her weapon type in the seasons she fenced for a high school team. She was her squad’s anchor as a freshman and sophomore. But at the national level, I’m very happy if she makes the Table of 32 in Junior (U20) events. My point here being, for the most part there is a BIG difference in skill/experience levels from scholastic fencing to USA Fencing competitions. At the scholastic level, there were plenty of kids who took up the sport as freshman…whereas in USA Fencing, it’s not unheard of for kids to start fencing at 8 years old.
I think the point that toandfro was trying to make above is that looking at fencing solely (or primarily) as a means to a an end is probably not a great way to look at the sport. Don’t do the sport just because you could get recruited. Do it because you enjoy it — and if you’re in a position to get recruited (at whatever level), great. I happen to agree with this POV 100%.
As BrooklynRye’s post #513 shows, there is a wide range of experience possible in the sport. From doing scholastic and local events only to traveling abroad for fencing meets. As you continue in the sport (and I hope you do), you’ll find what works for you/your family. I do encourage testing the waters of USA Fencing events. As a frosh, you should still be able to do Y14 events. That will give you a better feeling on where you truly stand vs. your peers who are also interested in fencing in college.
Anyone on the board going to Ivy Round-Robins (held at Princeton this year) this weekend?
Hey guys, If you don’t mind, could I get some help with what schools may be fits for my current stats?
Fencing:
-B18 (saber)
-On the cadet and junior national points list
-Best result was winning div2 nac.
Academics:
-3.7 W
-1430 SAT (taking it one more time)
-School doesn’t do rankings.
My top choice is UNC, and I will be meeting with the coach on a campus visit. Although my fencing ability might just be there, I’m afraid my academics are too weak. I’m an out of state student and reading about the OOS students who’ve gotten deferred/rejected is pretty demoralizing haha. I think it is a wonderful school, and I really want to see myself as a student there, but I don’t want to hang on too much on something that seems like a pretty far reach.
My other choices are NYU, UCSD, and possibly Air Force. I’ve been looking into a few Div3 schools but I’m afraid my academics are holding me back. I’d really appreciate any advice as to what schools may seem like technical fits, and other general advice you guys may have. Thanks!
@cashcarti - I don’t profess to be an admissions expert. This is more of a “chance me” post suitable for a UNC admissions thread. My sense is that your fencing is fine, maybe even a bit above UNC’s recruiting level. However, your academics are a bit low. The 3.7 should probably be UW. The Boards a bit closer to 1500. I say this not so much because UNC is such a highly-ranked school, but because of your OOS status. In-state admissions dominates UNC. My advice would be to assess the fencing coach’s ability/power to rrecruit you and his willingness to commit to do so. I think his hard commitment to an NLI is probably the only way you can tip admissions in your favor. You may also want to reach out to any current UNC fencers to get advice. This may prove extremely helpful. Good luck!
@BrooklynRye Thank you so much for your response, makes a lot of sense. I will definitely reach out to some UNC fencers as I know one or two that fenced with me at my high school. Thanks again!
I watched a few rounds of the Ivies this weekend and have a few questions (which may or may not be answerable by the folks who are active on the forum):