@SevenDad I can answer a couple of these questions from the perspective of my Ds school:
Athlete attrition: There’s been very little attrition on my Ds team. I think they lost one person across all weapons last year.
Losing record: I’ve wondered about this too – I expect “peer group” means different things to different schools though. Take Brown, for example: while they didn’t fare well at the Ivy tournament, they did well in the Northeast Fencing Conference events. I assume that most coaches build a schedule that allows their team to experience some success and build team camaraderie.
Time Commitment: It’s big, so time-management skills are really important. It’s 15-20 hours per week of practice, lifting, and lesson time depending on tournament schedule, and that’s not counting travel and tournament time.
For the sake of question 2 above, I was putting Brown (and Cornell, which only logged one win, vs. Brown) in the Ivy peer group (because they were competing directly with these schools in the Round-Robins). I know Brown is sort of in a transitional period with Coach Ripa taking over, but it still must be a challenge for the athletes (and their coaches) to keep their spirits up over a weekend like the one they just had.
The time commitment question came up because I spoke with 2 parents I know from the NAC circuit at Ivies and both commented on how much time being part of the team takes up. Your comments echo theirs.
Speaking from the perspective of the parent of an Ivy League fencer, I will try to answer to the best of my experience:
What's the athlete attrition like — or are there too many variables to generalize?
This question was prompted by looking at the roster for a certain weapon type at a specific school. A few strong fencers who were on the roster as of the fall no longer seem to be competing for this school.
I think there is a fair amount of attrition due to several factors. First, for some, the reality of a rigorous Ivy League course load only hits home once they start college. It quickly becomes a daunting challenge to balance academics and an intense athletic training and competition schedule. Second, for some, NCAA fencing does not substitute for their experience on the national and international level. Far easier to not have NCAA competition and training obligations on top of Team USA. Third, there is a natural attrition rate as fencers age out of the junior age division. The large majority have no shot or even dreams at making a senior team and most are not even within the range of competing at international senior events. Finally, I think the team dynamics inherent in NCAA fencing can be a real culture shock for fencers used to a largely individual sport. There can be a lot of politics and difficult social interactions at play and some never adapt.
What is it like to be on a team that has a losing record?
Looking at the results from Ivies (and other dual meets), it's clear that there are schools that are going to have losing records vs. their peer schools. I'm curious about what's that like — I can only imagine that it's challenging to maintain a positive outlook.
Without intending to sound elitist, Brown can go 0-5 and the kids all get back on the bus to go back to Brown University. But on the ground, I sense nothing but team enthusiasm and the thrill of being at the tournament. Another thing unique to the Ivies is the camaraderie among the fencers and teams. This is a very elite group of colleges and students. Most have known each other since they were kids competing at SYCs. Watching the teams intermingle, the shots with every fencer wearing a different team jacket, the hugging both on the strip and off, speaks volumes about why, win or lose, they all want to be there. P.S. While I thought you were just talking about losing at Ivies, I agree wholeheartedly with Stencils’ comments above.
How much of a "part-time job" is fencing in college?
This may be another question whose answer depends on the school/program/individual, but I'm curious how difficult the balancing act is in season.
For the starters and those who want to be considered for every competition, the commitment is a big one. Most schools have regular practices for several hours each week. In addition to tournaments, there may be training camps over school breaks, formal meets with alums, and orientation obligations for potential recruits and incoming fencers. While I think the balance between academics and NCAA fencing is tough, I do not think it is even close to the balancing when Team USA fencing is in play. I literally do not know how these kids survive it all.
All of my responses are from the perspective of an Ivy parent. I am sure the responses vary depending upon the school, the fencing program, and the extent of the fencer’s competition schedule.
With the 2018 JOs behind us, the recruiting season for the HS class of 2019 should be well underway. Any questions from the next class of parents/fencers?
@SevenDad Been told from word of mouth that UNC can only recruit 1 guy and 1 girl every year due to title ix, everyone else has to be walk on. Do you know if this is true? If I try to apply as a walk-on, are they still able to try to tip the admissions in my favor?
@cashcarti - Most college coaches have a bit more leeway than that. If UNC is your target, you should talk to someone at the school and find out for sure. The current head coach, Ron Miller, is retiring after more than 50 years at UNC. You should make the effort to reach out and get certain information.
@BrooklynRye Thanks for the response, I’m meeting with some of the coaches on campus this April, will definitely ask. From your experience, do you know how much coaches can influence admissions? I think my fencing is a target for the school, but my grades are not.
Coaches influence with admissions varies from program to program. Another question to ask when you are at UNC. Depending on how much they value your fencing and actually want you on their team, the school may or may not recruit or support your application. The problematic nature of your grades rises or falls in inverse proportion to how much they want you on their fencing team. Find that out in your meeting and you will know the answers you seek…
@cashcarti: I would assume you are meeting with Coach Webb? We never got far enough along with UNC to know how many recruiting slots they had in a given year. As BrooklynRye notes, it is my understanding that — generally speaking — college coaches usually have more than 1 slot per gender.
However, it could be the case that UNC only has one fully funded scholarship per gender and that’s what people mean/what you’ve heard. Remember that fencing is not a headcount sport, so the coach can chop up that scholarship among a few people.
I would guess that they have more than one slot per gender in terms of how many people they can tag in admissions. But…all good questions to ask when you visit. BTW, I was pretty surprised about how high they expect recruits’ stats to be at UNC.
@cashcarti My son and I visited Coach Webb at UNC the summer after my son’s sophomore year in high school.
Coach Webb could not have been a more gracious and delightful host. He spent about two hours with us. At the time, I believe my son was unrated (or maybe an E) and was certainly not nationally ranked My son approached the meeting trying to just access whether he might be able to walk on the team one day. Coach Webb assured him he was thereafter a “UNC recruit”. A nice confidence builder for my son at the time.
I recall Coach Webb heavily emphasized grades. He asked my son if he had every received a C.
Webb also said he spent a lot of time at the UNC admissions office advocating for the fencers he wanted.
Yesterday’s announcement of the 2018 NCAA Championship participants made me think about the factors that go into selecting first the consideration set, then the “demonstrate interest/pursue” set for prospective fencing recruits.
Granted, there is the umbrella factor of “how much of a role does fencing play in a fencer’s college decision-making”, but that elephant in the room aside…
I’m curious how big a factor a prospect’s chances of getting strip time at a given school is in their calculus. Look at certain regions and the winners/finalists of some events would not even be starters on the strongest teams.
I’m also interested in how much a prospect’s chances of making the NCAA championship as an individual at a given school matters. This year, I can easily point to a powerhouse where a national team-caliber fencer was not even selected to compete at regionals. Yet this fencer would be the top gun at many other schools. Which I guess is very specific way of asking, “Is it better to be a big fish in a small pond or a medium fish in a big one?”
Curious to hear the thoughts of people who have been through the recruiting process or who are starting/in the middle of the process now.
Re strip time: for my kid, it was a factor, but not a major one. Proximity to his coach probably had more to do with his decision. For a friend though, it was a major factor. 'Wanted to be on a good team AND active during freshman year. The decision came down to a great team with a deep bench, and a great team with a not-so-deep bench.
I’m not sure if it is a factor at all for consideration by parents, but it’s nice for athletes to have the choice if it comes up. Fencing is not football or basketball no matter how enthusiastic we are about it. #:-S
Not to speak for SevenDad or to confuse matters, but I think the question is a bit more pointed. I would venture to guess that most kids who target schools with fencing programs, do so with an eye towards fencing. Most, I imagine, would enjoy substantial strip time. I think that the bigger question is the degree to which strip time is a priority such that a fencer would sacrifice academic ranking in his/her school choice.
Going with Seven’s big fish/small pond analogy, a mid-level fencer who might not receive meaningful strip time at a DV1, may well get more time at a DV3, without sacrificing ranking. For instance, I may not get meaningful fencing time at Harvard or Columbia, but may do so at Haverford, Johns Hopkins or MIT, while clearly still matriculating at an elite educational institution.
If, however, my priority is to be at a competitive program; first, am I prepared to be the small fish to play for such a competitive team even if it means that it is unlikely I get a berth to Regionals let alone NCAAs? And second, if my goal is to play for a more competitive team, am I willing to commit to a perhaps lower ranked school in order to accomplish this?
In summary, how does one rank the following in the criteria for selecting a school: (1) School academic ranking; (2) Competitiveness of school fencing team, and (3) Likelihood of strip time and potential for Regionals and NCAA berths?
I think a broader context that extends beyond college is needed to address some of the important questions SevenDad has raised. For top prospects, do they wish to continue competing nationally and/or internationally. Olympics? Will fencing be part of a career path. Is this sport a means to an end (recruitment). Fencing may be a passion now, during high school and most likely during college, but perhaps it has a somewhat natural end point as career and relationships compete for valuable time and new interests and passions emerge.
Context can help athletes strike the balance that’s right for them as they weigh options about being a small fish or a big one, being on a team or The Team – if one is lucky enough to have such choices.
Interesting discussion Any thoughts for an academically (very) strong, A-rated fencer? Not a first-round recruit but a solid fencer with great training, plenty of NAC (and a little international) experience, but not high on the Jr points list. Would like to be at an elite school and fence for a team; happy to be practice hard and not compete as much - thus prioritizing criteria 1, 2, and 3 in that order. Would the teams at the top colleges (e.g., HYPS) even be interested in a small fish fencer? How does the small fish fencer even go through the admissions/recruiting process?
@fencingmom - Your post serves to crystallize at least some of the issues facing recruits. To the extent to which one wishes to continue to compete at a high level both nationally and internationally, with world teams and even a possible Olympic berth in mind, how does this impact one’s choice of schools.There are DV1, elite schools that support this choice. There are others that do not. Lower-ranked schools may support it more and, in any case, the academic challenges may be less. I do believe that fencing has a natural end point as you put it for the large, large majority of fencers. Even those for whom fencing is not strictly a means to an end, i.e., for recruitment, there just comes a time when it’s over. The challenge is to reasonably assess one’s future fencing prospects so as to not overweight them in the process of choosing the best school…if one is fortunate enough to have such options.
@picklish - An A-rated fencer generally has a leg up because, points ranking aside, his/her rating indicates some top performances, hopefully at NACs or other serious national/regional competitions. That said, the points list is at least the initial depth chart used by college coaches. For Stanford you are pretty much on your own. For HYP, while they look for top points-listers, top academics and scores can get you a hearing. How low on the points list exactly are you? If you have top academics and really want to fence, seriously consider DV3 programs at elite colleges outside of CHYP, e.g., Haverford, MIT, and Johns Hopkins.
@BrooklynRye@SevenDad@arwarw Thank you guys so much for your help! Can’t thank you guys enough for all the helpful information you guys have provided. In regards to SevenDad, I’ve been in contact with Coach Randolph, but I hope I get to meet with the whole coaching staff.
In regards to @BrooklynRye, can coaches still advocate for walk on athletes to admissions office assuming their recruiting slots are full?
And in regards to @arwarw, couldn’t be more joyed by the prospect of coach Webb advocating for fencers. Although my grades aren’t necessarily the best, I feel as if I’m a pretty good people person which I hope can help.
@cashcarti - Coaches can support non-recruits, but the weight of such support varies from coach to coach. You should inquire, straight-up, regarding the strength of admissions support from the fencing coach at the school(s) of your choice.
@BrooklynRye - Middle of junior points. Thanks for the Div 3 suggestions - will definitely reach out to them. Also, very helpful info about the possibility of admissions support for non-recruits. Any specific coaches who’ve been open to doing this?
@picklish - Middle of junior points, A-rated with some national success and some international experience sounds ripe for a DV3. I think you would be down the depth chart a bit for a shot at a DV1 at the HYP-C academic level. Sounds perfect though for some of the elite academic schools with DV3 fencing. At that level you might not even have to worry about support. They could very well recruit you. Depending on your child’s academic interests and stats, I would think Johns Hopkins, MIT, Stevens, Vassar and Haverford would all be prime targets. Not saying there is no chance at DV1, but think you will find infinitely greener pastures in DV3.
Any thoughts for an academically (very) strong, A-rated fencer? Not a first-round recruit but a solid fencer with great training, plenty of NAC (and a little international) experience, but not high on the Jr points list. Would like to be at an elite school and fence for a team; happy to be practice hard and not compete as much - thus prioritizing criteria 1, 2, and 3 in that order. Would the teams at the top colleges (e.g., HYPS) even be interested in a small fish fencer? How does the small fish fencer even go through the admissions/recruiting process?