The Only College Fencing Recruiting Thread You Need to Read

Athletic Recruits
541

@SevenDad @BrooklynRye @fencingmom I know of at least two international medalists who have won D1 NACs who were not even at regionals, but they are both freshmen on powerhouse teams with even higher ranked fencers, and I think they assume they will get their turn as the older fencers graduate. I know that for my son, being on a top team with highly ranked teammates was a higher priority than ensuring he would make it to the championship as a freshman. His second choice was an elite school where he would have been #1, but he felt like he would become a much better fencer with teammates who are at the same level, all pushing each other.

His first choice also happens to be top 10 for his major, so although it’s not as highly ranked overall as some of this other options, he doesn’t feel like he had to sacrifice academics for athletics. Plus finances were an issue for us, so the generous scholarship was a factor as well. He definitely wants to continue to compete nationally and internationally, during and after college, but he also wants to pursue a PhD, so I think his choice will prepare him well for either or both of those possibilities.

542

@Corraleno: Thanks for chiming in. If I read your post correctly, fencing factors played a fairly important role in the decision-makign process for you all. And…your son picked a school that might be considered lower ranked (from an academic/prestige POV) than his other choices (but still a great choice, of course) for fencing-related factors?

543

@SevenDad - Not quite reading @Corraleno post the same way.

In terms of the criteria, Corraleno’s son chose a top competitive team where he may “ride the bench” as opposed to a less competitive team where he would arguably have been a star. He did this in part because of the chances of team success, but also because he feels that the quality of the fencers on a more competitive squad will provide greater opportunities to improve his own fencing.

Re the academics, while he did weight fencing, the difference in academic choices was apparently negligible. He chose a school slightly lower-ranked in his major area, but still in the top 10. The parent/fencer apparently do not see this as a sacrifice of academic rigor or excellence.

544

@BrooklynRye Yes, exactly, S felt that the strength of the major department + the strength of the fencing program + a full tuition scholarship outweighed the prestige value of a more elite school, without sacrificing academics. His school is higher ranked in his major (top 10 in the US, top 20 in the world) than all but two Ivies, neither of which are as strong for fencing (nor were they his top choice among Ivies anyway, for other reasons). His third choice offered more money plus a strong fencing program, but weakness in his major was a deal breaker. So although he did put a high value on the quality of the fencing program, compared to someone for whom fencing might be more of a means to an end (admission to an elite school), academic quality was still his #1 priority.

He won’t exactly be riding the bench, though. He will be one of the top three on the team (in his weapon), all of whom have been top 10 on the Junior points list, with multiple national and international medals, and just below them are three other very good fencers (1 or 2 NAC medals each, top 30-50 on the points list as juniors). So he will still have a good shot at an NCAA berth as a freshman, although he will have to earn it. But he would rather have top fencers to train with every day, even if it means possibly losing an NCAA slot to one of them, than be virtually guaranteed a slot at a school where the team is not nearly as strong.

ETA: One of the things that really drew him to this school was seeing the level of improvement in some of the fencers that he knew and competed against before they enrolled there. That was even an explicit part of the sales pitch he got from their #1 fencer when he visited: “Look at where X and Y are now, compared to where they were when they enrolled. If you are ambitious and you’re willing to put in the work, the coaches and the team here will take you as far as you want to go.” Unlike a lot of top fencers, who’ve been fencing for 8-10 years by the time they’re in college and whose training may just involve a bit of tweaking or refinement, S only started fencing 5 years ago and he feels like he still has a lot of room to grow. So he really wanted a program that he felt would push him and challenge him and take him to the next level. The fact that he’s been able to find that at a school that is also highly ranked in his major and will pay his tuition, makes him a very lucky kid!

545

I’ll add another perspective to this recent discussion. In women’s foil, being an A fencer in the middle of the junior points list would make you perhaps best women’s foilist In all of Div3. I
don’t recall a single A rated D3 WF when I was looking at rosters a year ago, but it’s possible I’m forgetting one or two. It would also put you at the top of the the roster (and certainly top 3) on at least two Ivy squads.

The key point I’m trying to make is the strength of rosters is going to be different for each weapon and gender, so doing some advanced homework on squad strength and depth can really be helpful. Figuring out roughly where a new fencer would be stacked in the current roster is pretty easy to figure out. Use AskFred or the membership spreadsheet at USAFencing.com to look up ratings of each current member of target schools for your gender/ weapon.

546

Can someone clarify the following wording from the NCAA Championship manual: “No club patches or country affiliation markings are allowed at the final site of the championships. The aforementioned fine will apply if the club logo or country affiliation is not able to be removed from the student-athlete’s uniform.”

At first I assumed the phrase “country affiliation markings” referred to the national logo that’s stenciled or sewn on the leg for international competitions, but then I noticed that very few fencers in photos of previous championships had USA on the back of their jackets/lames either, so I thought maybe that counted as a “country affiliation marking” too. Then I saw a few photos of fencers at previous championships who had USA on both the leg and the back, so now I’m really confused.

I need to get my son’s new jacket stenciled before the D1 championship next month, and I want to make sure it’s compliant with NCAA rules as well — so should I leave USA off the back? Does it matter?

547

@Corraleno: I was curious about this, also and asked around (college coaches as well a highly rated ref).

I think the “No club patches or country affiliations” currently applies to the finals only. BUT may trickle down to regionals and even duals in future years. And I think it was only instituted at finals recently (last two years?).

In terms of what you should do…if you are getting your kid a new FIE jacket for international competition, you really have no choice, right? It needs the USA on the back of the jacket and the country colors on leg. However, if you are just getting him a new non-FIE uniform for domestic events/college/practice…then I think you can just do last name on jacket.

That said, I would ask the coach of the program where your son is headed what, if any, whites are provided. I know that some schools provide whites — and for weapons classes that require them, lames with the SCHOOL name stenciled on back…for anyone representing the school at regionals and the championship (and maybe even for duals).

548

My final para in #546 is missing a concluding sentence: If they are providing whites (and your son is fine with how those particular whites fit/stretch/don’t stretch/feel…I know this matters to some, including my own kid), then you have nothing to worry about in terms of how you mark the set you are planning on getting for him for April NAC.

549

As @SevenDad pointed out, at my Ds school, they have a complete set of school-provided equipment. Whites with no marks, mask with the school logo, and lame/jacket with just the school name stenciled on the back, so this isn’t an issue for those going to regionals/nationals.

550

Thank you for confirming my sense of your original post @Corraleno. You also, btw, introduce a 4th criteria — Finances. In your case, it appears as if you did a great juggling act, bringing the quality of the school, quality of the fencing program, and finances under a nice umbrella.

Did not mean to presume or to be disparaging regarding your son’s level. Glad he will have a shot for an NCAA berth as well as the regular season benefits of top competition at his school. He will indeed have to earn it as the path through regular season seeding factors through a potentially grueling regionals event, can be very painful.

It is interesting that you cite the increased level of improvement at your son’s choice of college. My anecdotal sense of this is that fencers who actually improve in college fall into two categories: (1) Those who continue to train with their high-level coach or switch to a high-end local coach, and continue to compete on the national and international circuits; and (2) Those who generally did not have elite coaching and/or enough local training competition to improve pre-college. While the best fencers matriculating at colleges tend to maintain a base level of excellence, my (again anecdotal) observation is that those precollege elite fencers almost all lose their finer skills without continuing elite training while in college. For most, it’s not a matter of skills regression (although this does happen in some cases). It’s more a matter of not continuing to improve toward even higher skill levels. This can be offset somewhat if the college coach is actually an elite coach, e.g., Buckie Leach at ND and Akhi Spenser at Columbia.

@Stencils - You make a good point regarding the relative value of an “A” rating. Regarding the OP’s targeting of HYP-C, however, I would argue that only at Yale would this perhaps carry the day. Harvard, Yale and Princeton are stocked with “A” rated fencers who have the added assets of World Championships, World Teams and a multitude of NAC and International Designated Event podium finishes. However, reviewing each roster for weapon/gender in each recruiting year can be critical. You never know when there is an anomalous opening at a school one might never have dreamt of having a chance to make.

@Corraleno - The requirement solely for NCAA Championships is that there be no country markings on whites, lames or masks. As Seven notes, to the extent to which your school provides equipment for its fencers, they will provide this. There is almost always some tension, confusion and balance associated with which takes prominence for which competitions. For our purposes, we default to International = Team USA, Domestic = Club, and NCAA = College. When my son is on the podium in Europe, he wears his Team USA jacket. In the US, he wears his fencing club’s jacket. At NCAA, he wears his college jacket, sweatshirt or t-shirt.

551

@BrooklynRye, I generally agree regarding HYP-C and women’s foil. Interestingly Princeton didn’t qualify a single WF to nationals this year, but Columbia, UPenn, Yale, and Cornell each qual’d two. Harvard qual’d just one.

552

As you know, from within one of the toughest regions, there are many top fencers who fail to qualify. A bad day at regionals can sink just about anyone. Not necessarily a reflection of the quality of any particular gender/weapon at any university. Neither Harvard nor Princeton are particularly known for strong WF. Nothing against Cornell or Yale, but less surprising that Harvard and Princeton failed to qualify 2 than that both Yale and Cornell did…

553

This posting may be little bit too late since it seems we started another discussion, yet to comment on post #526 @cashcarti, I would like to share my experience with UNC coaches as well as the somewhat nontraditional recruitment experience we had with the school my fencer will eventually attend.

My D and I met Coach Miller and Coach Webb for the first time at SN, and as mentioned before they could not have been more gracious, delightful and encouraging.

Just to give a background about my D’s fencing, she is an A- rated fencer, have been on the podium several times in the past for Div 2,3 and Cadet, and finished her Cadet year ranking in the top 30. Nonetheless. her Junior national point ranking dropped quite a bit during her junior year when she could not fence Cadet anymore (she has a 1999 birthday) and started stressing out about everything including her tough school academics load. She was not quite confident with her fencing at the time of the interview, yet the coaches had a very good word so say about her which was so encouraging.

She visited them again in early October on campus, and she just fell in love with the athletes, the campus and everything about UNC. When I went back to the campus to pick her up 2 days later, the coach offered a NLI. During the conversation, I had to ask if my D was a recruit because it seemed the idea of a recruit was a little bit different from what I had known. The coach said my D is recruit ‘who got in her own, and he did not have to use one of his 4 slots. (don’t quote me on the number since my memory can be wrong) He said an athletic is categorized into 1,2, and 3 depending on his/her academic record, and if the athlete is a 1, s/he can be accepted. If an athlete is 2, the coach has to really push it, and if 3 there is no way s/he can get in. He said my D is beyond that level so he can recruit her without using his slot, yet still can offer NLI. I asked if he had a limited number of fencers who he can recruit in such a way, and I he said not really. We received a pre-admission letter from the admission office the same week. I am not sure what makes athletes to get on their own, but knowing how tough it is to get into UNC from out- of-state, the coach’s word must have a big influence on admission. Just for reference, my D’s academic grades are

SAT :1560/1600
GPA : 99/100 with honor points/ 94/100 without at a very competitive public high school
Course load : 12 AP classes and 3 college classes

UNC quickly became one of my D’s top choices, but did not apply early. Her first choice was another DIV 1 school, which did not recruit her at that time. The way my D got accepted to her first choice school is another non-conventional recruiting story. The coach at the DIV 1 school said he cannot recruit her, but she is welcome to the team if she gets in on her own. He said she took all her academic record to the Dean of Admission, who strongly encouraged her to apply ED and also added word by word “The dean of Admission’s evaluation s very promising.” My daughter applied to that school Early Decision in late October and a week later after submitting Common App, and the coach emailed her that he was able to get her a spot and offered her NLI. I am not sure how that spot suddenly became available, but my D couldn’t be more happier with the news.This was also not a conventional way of recruitment since in most cases, the coach offers you slot, you apply, and then you get in.

The moral of the two stories show that there are different ways to become a recruit, and as mentioned by many other parents from this thread, grades can play a crucial role in getting recruited. If you are the top 5 fencers among the incoming freshmen, there is strong chance of getting recruited by meeting the school’s minimum criteria, but if you are not, grades can definitely help.

554

Thanks for sharing your D’s story, Miniblue77! It’s never too late to hear about another success story.

One thing I particularly like about your post is that it shows future prospects that there is more than one path to getting a spot on a college fencing team!

555

@Miniblue77 - Echo Seven’s thanks for sharing your story. Very useful. Just a bit confused.

My understanding is that the NLI or LL is the official recruitment document for DV1 and Ivy League schools, respectively. Since coaches have a limited number of slots, apparently averaging about 4/gender/season, they may opt roll the dice with a fencer who they want to recruit, but who can gain admission to the school without recourse to official recruitment. What I don’t understand with regard to your experience at UNC is that the coach offered your daughter an NLI (official recruitment) but at the same time did not have to use a recruiting slot because your daughter could get in on her own (non-recruitment). My understanding is that these are mutually exclusive.

Also, while coaches may be “recruiting” (in the dictionary sense of the word) a fencer who they want on their team, through support, the fencer is not an official “recruit” (in the NCAA sense of the word). For instance, I have attended dinners at my son’s DV1 school at which the freshman recruits are introduced. Only those freshmen who received an LL are introduced. Other freshman who will fence on the team, regardless of status, are not introduced because they are not official recruits. This is also true if you review announcements of seasonal recruits at DV1 schools. They only list those fencers who received an NLI or LL.

Obviously, there are risks to rolling the dice. For the parents/fencer, there is a level of uncertainty that is substantially eliminated once an NLI or LL is offered and ultimately received. For the coach, he/she must recognize that the door has been left open for another institution to offer a firmer commitment in the form of an NLI or LL.

It sounds as if your daughter was fast-tracked in terms of her academic per-read and that you received some good assurance that she would be accepted ED to her first choice DV1 program. In all likelihood, the coach at that school was also attempting to conserve his seasonal ration of NLIs. Either one became readily available and your daughter was tops on his “waiting list” and/or her stellar academics (kudos!) made her a stronger pick, perhaps even to offset a recruit with much lower academic statistics.

In any case, always happy to hear of success! Good luck to your daughter. Enjoy NCAA fencing!

556

@BrooklynRye That is what I did not understand either. He even said it he was thankful that he can recruit my D without using his ticket, mostly known as slots (Coach Webb said it is now called recommendations) We were quoted on the scholarship that she would receive and also was told that the amount was different among fencers. My D did not submit any official documents (Her transcript, senior schedule, and SAT score were all just PDF files) , and still received a pre-admission letter.
Thinking about it now, during the interview at SN, the UNC coaches looked at my D’s SAT score and said it would be better to have a SAT score in the mid 1500s. At the time, her first SAT was right below 1500s and she was planning to take it again in August. He also mentioned more than 7 ap classes is good, and the fact my D would have 12 is great. I remember being surprised thinking mid 1500s was the score you need to get recruited from UNC.

I agree that she could have been on the wait-list for the school she was accepted. The fencers who ware recruited for her weapon were either one of the top 5 fencers among the incoming class or represented another country and attended the World Cadet Championship. My D’s fencing was not near that.

557

@Miniblue77: One thing that is underscored by your posts is how key having good academics (test scores and grades) can be. TBH, I think people lose sight of that…

558

Lol. More confusing in each retelling as I am fairly certain that athletic scholarship money only comes in combination with an official recruitment including an NLI. Perhaps just a miscommunication. In any case, glad your daughter landed her first choice and his happy. All that matters in the end.

559

@BrooklynRye Sorry to confuse you but happy that I can make you laugh:) The recruitment was official as my D was offered a NLI. The coach said he just did not have to use his slot. This type (?) of recruitment might not happen everywhere but that is what I got from the UNC coach, so if anybody is interested in attending UNC you might want to talk to the coach there.
From your understanding, if the coach has 4 slots, only 4 fencers in one class can receive athletic scholarship, but from the conversation it seemed more fencers received scholarships but all in a.different amount.

560

@Miniblue77 If I’m reading your posts correctly, your D had a positive pre read at UNC (based on the PDFs you sent), was offered a scholarship via NLI, and then applied and was accepted. And at her 1st choice, she applied ED and then was offered a scholarship via NLI (although I’m not entirely clear if that came before/with/or after formal acceptance by admissions). Is that correct?