@tigermaman One thought on club Fencing, clubs are run by students and can really vary among schools and from year to year. If club is something she is considering she needs to investigate how itʻs run and supported by the school - some schools rate their club sports and support accordingly.
@helmut? - My count is 8 at Ivies, 1 Duke & 1 ND, but I have a feeling your are only accounting for domestic fencers. Either way, pretty impressive considering the national admissions statistics for access to these schools.
@tigermaman, just a quick note to add to what @cleoforshort said about club fencing: while we did not explore these seriously ourselves, we did have some positive experiences that supports the idea that club fencing can be a great option, if the school is otherwise a perfect fit. As an anecdotal example, we were at a regional tournament hosted by RIT and were quite impressed by the enthusiasm and level of organization of that club. They had high-level fencers coming for a ROC-level tournament and were clearly dedicated to the sport. I spoke to a couple of the students who were also really happy with the school. I don’t pretend to be any kind of expert on that school or club fencing, but it struck me as an excellent option for club fencing at a school that might be the right fit for the studies they offer. So it might be worth including those schools in the Venn diagram @helmut? mentions,
Good luck!
Hi all, talking about clubs I thought I’d add in I know the University of Michigan fencing club is pretty strong for a club. The coach has been there forever and they compete with the NCAA schools too. I’ve never seen U of M on here so I thought I’d throw it out there. Plus it’s a very good academic school.
For reference, here’s a link to the site of the organization that hosts the national collegiate club championships…I’ve picked the page that lists the participating colleges (I think from last season) so people could get a feel for what schools might support their club teams well:
Hi @SevenDad - thank you for the list you sent out. We are relatively new fencing parents and even newer to this forum/ fencing college admissions game. This link has been a treasure trove of information for us newbie parents!! Big Thanks and deep gratitude to parents like you, @BrooklynRye and many, many other parents here.
This list you gave will also help us look at schools that is a good fit for my daughter and has Fencing clubs (Univ of Michigan has been mentioned by @dinjimh as having a strong fencing team which we are considering - any others?) where she can still continue her love for fencing. Unfortunately, she started only 2 years ago - she is now 15 and she is unlikely to achieve the top level that a lot of the fencers here have achieved when application period comes approx in 1.5 years.
This link has the results from 2017…and could be of help identifying the more competitive programs (at least for that one year):
https://www.fencing.net/16376/2017-usa-collegiate-fencing-club-usacfc-championships-recap/
@gtsamd Don’t be afraid of looking at some of the smaller D3 schools. Your daughter’s 4(ish) years experience when she gets to campus may not be much for the bigger and/or ranked teams, but there a few schools where that’ll be 4 years more experience than the bottom of the roster currently has.
@helmut? This is exactly what I noted from this year’s Woman’s Epee recruiting class. There were 9 girls recruited up to this point.
FWIW, I don’t think that this year’s WE class is that different from last year’s (or the year before, etc.)…I kept track and here’s what I have from a note dated Jan. 7 2018…From the Top 10 in Class of 2022: 6 Ivies, 1 Stanford, 1 Duke, 1 Northwestern, 1 Notre Dame (the #1 girl in the class). Of those, I’m fairly certain there was one B-rated fencer (who is at an Ivy). If we go out to #13 on the Class of 2022 WE depth chart, that adds another B-rated fencer who also ended up at an Ivy.
I think the point is that the 6-10 top fencers in any class are generally going to end up at the 6-10 top programs (whether measured by selectivity or competitiveness of program).
Hi @saharafrog - yes, thanks for the encouragement especially for us that may not have a super top profile for the like f Harvard/ Princeton/ Stanford nor an A-rating/ World championship type of results - congrats and salute to parents whose kids have achieved this. I could imagine the herculean effort made by the whole family!
We do plan to also look at some of the D3 schools like NYU, Tufts, Wellesley as suggested by some parents like @BrooklynRye. I just realised that we can expand our list (i.e., add the like of UMichigan) and include in the mix of schools with Fencing club-type of setup.
In fact a D3-type school (I may call a “REACHABLE” or Achievable? category) may be kind of like our targeted sweet spot for us where she’d need to have top academic results + at least B rating. We can also dream and maybe even try Brown or Cornell or Walk on as option. On the flip side, if she still falls short on the fencing part (given we have 2 years - we are late into the game transitioning my daughter from gymnastics) and wants to continue then Fencing-club type of school is an option for us then.
This will all mainly depend on a couple of factors outlined by the likes of @“helmut?” (great post btw on the Venn diagram analogy) leading up to the application period in 2 years.
Thanks for all the great advice from everyone so far! Keep 'em coming…
@sevendad agreed. Seems somewhere in top 6-10 per class can expect to be recruited at a competitive school.
@BrooklynRye I did include a fencer that fences for Canada but I’m guessing the small difference in our predictions as to where this year’s seniors will attend can be explained by date of the list we used. I used junior year post-JO rolling and I know it changed by the post-summer national’s ranking.
The other possibility is that at least a couple of last year’s seniors took a gap year and will start college with this year’s seniors.
@SevenDad I guess the only slight differences in this year’s Woman’s Epee class when compared to the class of 2022 is that only 9 fencers have been recruited so far, and all 9 have been recruited by Ivies and are A rated. Some pretty good fencers haven’t placed yet, so let’s see what the rest of the year holds. I’m sure that could be due to numerous factors including weapons needed at a particular school, academic fit, etc…
@“helmut?” - Forget which one I used, but you are probably right. Clearly elite college selection going on in both genders and in all weapons. Wonder if anyone has ever done a study to show relative allocations among genders and, in particular, among weapons…
Actually it’s 11 from this year’s Woman Epee when counting the 2 international fencers going to Columbia.
Lol. I think we can all agree that the top recruits in each season will fall predominantly to top schools and programs should that be their choice. Meanwhile, the NCAA season has heated up and is in full swing heading to each divisions special conference tournaments, regional qualifications and, ultimately, to Cleveland for NCAA Championships. Fun to watch and to cheer on favorite fencers and teams should any get a chance to drop in. Big tournament weekend in the Northeast with back-to-back big events at St. John’s in Queens, NY, and then in Philadelphia at UPenn. Only regular season meetings among Harvard, Columbia, and Notre Dame.
Notes from my first NCAA fencing meet (where my kid was competing):
- It’s less smelly than USA Fencing meets. Perhaps because the density of fencers/people is less and because most universities wash the athletes’ whites on a regular basis…but a notable improvement on the fencing spectating experience!
- USA Fencing ratings and rankings don’t matter a bit once you step onto the NCAA strip. It’s just 3 fencers vs. 3 fencers, with each side trying to get to as close to a 9-0 W/L as possible. You have Div3s vs. Div1s, you have current/former national team members lining up against D-rated fencers. It's all good.
- In many cases, it’s the same fencers you’ve seen at NACs. But there are MANY college fencers who don’t seem to fence NACs anymore (if they ever did), and TBH, it’s kind of nice to have no pre-conceived notion of how you/your fencer might match up against someone.
- Love the atmosphere in general. The team environment is VERY different from NAC fencing, even if you’re a member of a large club with a lot of camaraderie. Once people’s 9-bout weapon match-ups were done, the kids would go over to watch bouts still in progress…very often bouts that can influence the outcome of the match. When someone wins that critical 14th bout…things can get loud!
- The NCAA dual format is interesting because it takes the bout scores from all three weapons into account. So while one weapon might go 9-0, if the other two weapons go 2-7, that team will still lose. So while there is less pressure on any one bout/one fencer, there is really still a need to win by as large a margin as possible (in terms of bout count, not the score in individual bouts), to give a cushion to the other weapons. Very interesting to see how various coaches approach line-ups for a given match-up.
- This has been covered before, but aspiring fencers should really take into account what their goals for fencing in college are when considering various schools/programs. I saw teams with 8+ people on their roster for a given weapon, but only 3-4 people took to the strip. Sometimes it seemed like seniority came into play, and in other situations, it seemed like they were just fencing the best 3-4 (for that day/matchup). My point is that, depending on how deep a team’s bench is, there is a chance that you might sit for a most of a dual as a freshman — or not even make the travel squad, depending on the team’s policies. No matter what your rating or ranking is…you still have to earn that starting/alternate spot.
- Seeing parents you know from the NAC circuit (some from when the kids were Y-12s) is fun...and not just the parents from the same team/weapon type!
Can’t wait for Philly this weekend…I’ve been to it before to spectate, but it’s definitely a different experience when your kid is in the mix.
@SevenDad , I had a feeling you might post here today so I thought I’d check any updates to the thread. It was, indeed, a totally different experience from a NAC. My eyes were dried out and blood shot because there was no time to blink, because if you did, you missed something. It was very exciting!
The team atmosphere was great for several reasons but my favorites were:
a) 'got to see DS’s friends fence. Some of the kids I’ve known for a year or two but have never seen fence, either because I don’t go to NACs regularly anymore, or they fence on different days in the schedule.
b) considering some fencers were away at international competitions this weekend and missed the NCAA event, it was wonderful to witness the ‘professionalism’ of the remaining team members and how they rose to the challenge. As a parent, it really reinforced how mature they have become and how fencing benefits aspects of their lives other than athletics.
referring to your #6, another point to take into consideration when considering schools/goals is travel time to international competitions. Although the team obviously missed some of their teammates, they were more freaked out about how long it would take to get to an international airport from some of the big schools.
Spot-on notes from @SevenDad and @chelsea465 – my D was also at the same event they are discussing above. I couldn’t make this one, but I did go to a couple of collegiate events last year.
I’d emphasize #6 from sevenD’s post above. It was surprising to me how few competitors from big roster programs competed (or even traveled). A prospective fencer really needs to consider this if they are not going to be in the top 5 of a roster.
I’ll also add one more point that’s not mentioned. I think a prospective fencer would be well served by attending one or two of these large duals prior to committing to a program, as each team has its own personality (which is a combination of the fencers and the coaching style). Attending a couple of events last year I saw teams that functioned like a team, vs. some teams that seemed to function more as a competition of individuals with a team score at the end. For programs where the attitude seemed to be the latter, the fencers seemed to be having a lot less fun, as the team camaraderie/atmosphere wasn’t there.
Back from my second college meet with a few more observations:
- First, I think it's safe to say that I love NCAA fencing. I really get what @chelsea465 was saying above...that there is so much action to take in. And there is so much to cheer for...above and beyond your own kid. Whether it's rooting for your kid's team to win the decisive 14th bout, their squad to win their decisive 5th, or even just a kid who's maybe having a tough day to get his/her first win of the meet.
- Also continuing to enjoy getting to know the coaches and other parents of team members...celebrating, commiserating, planning, laughing, etc.
- An interesting thing to observe (at both meets) was how sometimes, it's just a kid's weekend. They may not be the most vaunted recruit or even the closer on a given squad, but they'll be the one who goes 3-0 vs. a tough team. So great to see that, on my daughter's team as well as others.
- A less "rah-rah" observation...I had wondered why I hadn't seen a top Ivy recruit from Class of 2022 in the stat lines for a particular school, so I asked a kid I know from that team what was up. Turn out this star recruit quit the team in the first week or so. I guess the takeaway is stuff can happen...even with the "Top 5" level recruits.