The Only College Fencing Recruiting Thread You Need to Read

Athletic Recruits
921

Recently, a few parents asked me if there is any resource for keeping track of the college fencing meets/results. IMO, the best place to start is CollegeFencing360.com and the associated Twitter Feed. It’s a volunteer outfit, so sometimes there are big gaps/lags in posts, but it’s a good site to bookmark. I’ll often start there, then go to various team sites to get more detailed results (many, but not all, teams post PDFs of the actual score sheets).

They also sponsor the annual Coaches Poll rankings, the first round of which for the 2018-19 season was recently released.

http://www.collegefencing360.com

922

This is very helpful, especially the heads up about the Twitter feed. Thanks!

923

I was looking at Wagner College womens fencing and they are listed as NCAA Div 1 but when I look at their schedule it shows NIWFA Championships in March. What is that compared to the NCAA? Is that something additional?
Still learning…

924

@dinjimh: I’m pretty sure NIWFA is the organization that used to sponsor intercollegiate women’s fencing (and a championship) before a women’s fencing championship was held by the NCAA.

NIWFA was founded in 1929…Title IX became law in 1972 and the NCAA only added women to championship tournament in 1982.

Seems like NIWFA still holds an annual tournament (maybe two?)…which looks like it includes club teams as well as varsity teams. This is separate from and in addition to the NCAA tournament, which fencers have to qualify for.

http://www.niwfa.com

925

The NIWFA events are non-NCAA event that don’t play at all into NCAA standings/records. There are actually two NIWFA events each year.

There’s a Christmas tournament – I think this is an individual event and is limited to C and under fencers, so it’s mostly Div3 and club teams that show up.

There’s also the NIWFA championship in late Feb each year. I attended this last year. This is a team event, but it’s not anything like a typical dual event or like NCAA championships. It’s actually hard to describe – each team designates one or two fencers for each weapon that are “A team” “B team” and “C team” – so for a squad of six, the two best fencers in each weapon would be designated A team, for example. Then there’s 5 point bouts in groups where the A team fencers for the different squads fence each other (and B, and C). There’s some sort of overall point system to designate the winning schools for each weapon and overall, but there were individual trophies as well. I’m 100% sure I don’t have the above quite right, because it was such a different tournament than any I ever attended. The tournament style gave some strong club teams more of a chance. Smith did particularly well last year.

926

@stencils: That scoring system sounds similar to the one used for the Santelli and Cetrulo annual tournaments held for HS teams in NJ.

927

Thanks for the information. I just wasn’t sure if that meant they weren’t NCAA anymore, but sounds like they can do both.

928

Figured I’d bump the thread in advance of a few key meet weekends happening over the next fortnight.

Huge meet at Northwestern (currently the #2 ranked women’s program, just behind ND) this coming weekend with teams bussing/flying in from all over…then the following weekend, the Ivy Round-Robins hosted by Yale. Results will no doubt have an impact on the next CollegeFencing360 Coaches Poll.

929

@SevenDad - My daughter is looking forward to fencing at the Northwestern Duals this coming weekend, should be lots of teams and lots of fencing. She just competed at Notre Dame’s DeCicco Duals last weekend. Here are a few nuggets she has picked up about NCAA fencing (some of these kind of echo things others listed earlier):

Success is all relative - while some fencers from highly ranked schools don’t appear to take it well when they lose a single bout, other, often club fencers, are ecstatic to have ALMOST won 1 of their 3 bouts.

On a related note, even though going 1-2 is a losing record, when it comes against #1 ranked team in the country, it can be a huge confidence builder.

Experience/inexperience is also relative - my daughter (who would not consider herself overly experienced) found herself giving an impromptu clinic on french grip epee when a club squad approached her after their bouts and asked for some pointers.

Another note about club squads - even though they have little to no coaching, are usually less experienced, have paid their own way to get to the competition, and tend to have losing bout records - some of them seem like the happiest fencers there.

Being your team’s anchor can be a little nerve-wracking, but few things compare to the feeling of pulling off the win to break a 4-4 tie (and/or get that 14th team win).

Being anchor for epee almost always ensures a big crowd is watching since both your sabre and foil teammates tend to finish their 9 bouts in less time.

Squad sizes - if you’re on a team that has only 3 people for your gender and weapon - you’ll get to fence a lot. My daughter fenced 34 bouts over two days of competition.

Refs (especially the older male ones, apparantly) love to make puns and other assorted “dad jokes”.

Foot touches vs floor touches - not only do NCAA coaches have better eyesight than referees, but they always seem to have a better angle on viewing these type of actions (BTW - that was sarcasm).

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@dinjimh Wagner does fence NCAA. My daughter fenced against them last Saturday at Notre Dame’s DeCicco Duals.

931

@saharafrog: Thanks for sharing your daughter’s observations from NCAA play.

“Being anchor for epee almost always ensures a big crowd is watching since both your sabre and foil teammates tend to finish their 9 bouts in less time.” <— This, especially if the match is close. In Philly a few weekends ago, one match came down to the 7-8-9 bouts of epee. So the saberists and foilists came over to watch and they were all linked arm-in-arm cheering for every darn touch. Fun stuff.

These mega-meets are good preparation for regionals (especially in the larger regions)…there is a ton of bouting to be had. 34 5-touch bouts in 2 days is a lot! I think it trains kids to make sure they are keeping themselves fed and hydrated throughout the day and that they get rest where they can (including during any rounds where they might have a bye). They also have to maintain focus for a long period of time…

Sounds like your daughter is having a great NCAA experience so far. Hopefully things warm up in Evanston before she gets there!

932

@saharafrog @SevenDad My D fenced as the last Epee fencer in Providence this past weekend. I was very happy to see her put away three fencers in front of two coaches who did not return her emails during the recruiting process. Vindication! LOL

933

@cleoforshort: Same thing happened with my D at her NCAA debut…I confess to enjoying some degree of schadenfreude during that particular match.

934

I Just attended a seminar this weekend by a head coach of a highly ranked Ivy team and I wanted to share some of the take-aways I got out of it. Probably common knowledge to many here, but may be helpful to some. These points are specific to his program, so, of course, policies will vary at other programs

Don’t try to figure out how many slots a coach might have for a particular weapon. Just ask the coach if they’re looking for your particular weapon. Most coaches will tell you what they need and don’t need at that moment.

The Coach doesn’t pay attention to Y14 or younger rankings.

The Coach likes to see your five touch bout winning percentage and quality 5 touch wins. For example, some fencers will list on their bio/resume their seed coming out of pools at premier events.

In addition to the normal quantitative info (SAT, GPA, National rank , notable finishes, etc…) on your fencer bio/resume, the coach also likes to see qualitative info such as fencing goals and current coach and training plan. He doesn’t really care about your height and weight.

The coach is typically done recruiting by July 1st.

The coach does not mind receiving bio, info and updates from high school freshmen and sophomores, but don’t expect a response.

Unfortunately a ‘C’ on your transcript is a likely disqualifier with admissions.

Your club coach recommendation is important.

If you clear the admissions pre-read and are offered a recruitment slot, you’re in.

A recommendation from the head coach to the admissions office is only worth "the paper it’s written on. " But if the coach does recommend you and you are admitted you’re welcome to join the team. If not, he’ll ask you to train and compete at an outside club your freshmen year and then meet with him again your sophomore year. He’s offered this opportunity to many fencers over seven years, but only one fencer followed through, and ultimately became a competitive team member.

He recommends working hard at your club on fundamentals, and not getting too caught up in chasing points and rankings. Don’t overdo it with too many competitions.

I hope this is helpful.

935

@arwarw - This is a great check-list!

During my son’s recruitment season we spoke in depth with 5 of the 8 Ivy League fencing coaches. Some additional perspective from a broader spectrum of coaches:

Whereas coaches are generally straightforward regarding this, there are two factors to consider as to why strategizing this remains a good idea. First, coaches are often straightforward in the way in which car salesmen are. They assess what information is out there and get a sense from each parent/fencers as to how much of this information is known to the recruit. Knowledge is generally power. Second, a coach can be cagey with you for many reasons, not least of which is not appearing too anxious in the face of competition from other schools. While there were coaches who were extremely up front with us in terms of the team’s needs and my son’s chances of recruitment, there were others that were much less straightforward. Knowing each team’s needs, regardless of what the coach said, was very empowering.

True re Y14, but don’t be surprised if coaches have been aware of the recruit back into youth fencing. 2 funny stories about this. First, in one of our visits with an Ivy coach, he recalled seeing my son fence y12 many years ago. Although he was complimentary of my son’s skill as a fencer, what struck him at the time and what he related to us was my son’s good sportsmanship in both victory and in defeat. Second, a friend of ours formerly in the government security noted that when meeting with college coaches, it was clear that they had been observing his child for years. Our friend said, “I have been in government security for decades and I saw nothing!” They are watching…lol.

Very, very true re 5-touch bouts. In the end, while individual accomplishments and accolades are nice, it’s about team in NCAA. Any fencing program worth its salt would return all of its NCAA Championship individual medals for a National Championship.

Coaches truly assess the recruit’s long term commitment to fencing. Beyond the fencer’s past accomplishments as a national and international competitor, there remains a question as to how long a fencer continues once in college. Many, many fencers stop fencing. Some retract to NCAA, but some simply fall off the grid. Coaches are very aware of this. Likely Letters are limited and Ivy League coaches hate to burn LLs.

Re July 1st, usually the case, particularly at the Ivies. There will always be anomalies; last minute deferrals and withdrawals, injuries, etc, but for the most part this is pretty accurate.

The value of a recommendation from your personal coach very much depends on the coach and his/her relationship with college coaches. There are some coaches that are pretty toxic when it comes to college coaches. There are some coaches who have little or no knowledge about NCAA fencing and/or the recruiting process. In my view, it is best to know the process and players as well as you can without relying on a personal coach to steer you. Very often, their interests are divergent from the fencer’s.

Don’t get over your skis when it comes to verbal commitments. My friend @superdomestique will be the first to caveat this. Most likely you are in, but it is not 100% guaranteed. Mind your “Ps” and “Qs”, watch personal conduct and remaining high school grades. Anomalies, anomalies…

“Support” is a bit of a crapshoot. Some coaches have more clout than others. Some very limited. Some, frankly, not at all. Most are pretty candid about the value of their support. Others are notoriously not so candid. Personally I would not rely on a coach’s support, particularly if I had a firm commitment elsewhere. We each have our own risk tolerance. That’s what makes horse races.

As you near matriculation, NCAA fencing takes priority for these coaches. They will be biased toward de-prioritizing outside fencing. They will support it to varying degrees, depending up on the ethos of the particular program. They will bathe in the PR of one’s outside successes. But never mistake their priorities. It’s all about NCAA fencing. Just ask any internationally competitive fencer who tried to opt-out of the Ivy League Championships about his/her coach’s priorities. Oh, and since at least the initial depth charts for recruiting are based on the Junior Points Lists in each weapon/gender, a bit hard not to be competitive in this arena looking towards one’s recruiting year….

936

In the “stuff happens” category, Princeton women spent two days fencing at the Northwestern Duals this weekend with a single foil fencer, so they started every dual at -6. Their roster currently has exactly three women per weapon – so no room for an injury or others issues at all. Those fencers must have been very tired after fencing every bout in two long days of duals at Northwestern with no subs. If you believe the “dubious gossip” thread on Fencing.net for class of 2019 recruiting, they have 2 new incoming fencers for each of the three weapons, but also have some graduating seniors, so unless fencing.net is missing some new recruits, they will be pretty lean next year too.

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@stencils…Worth noting that the Princeton women beat Ohio State 19-8 this weekend with just 7 fencers. PU’s roster always tends to be on the lean side, but this season is especially lean. I’ll comment more about shorthanded rosters later this AM.

938

@stencils - This is a good point. I am always amazed at schools, particularly with competitive programs, that run very lean operations. As you say, no room for an injury or other issues at all. I don’t know if this is a budgetary issue, limits on recruiting slots, or within the particular coach’s prerogative, but is seems like a really bad thing that a major fencing program cannot field a full squad in each gender/weapon at a pretty major tournament.

939

Back (and exhausted) from the Northwestern Duals.

In some recent correspondence, a fellow parent of an NCAA fencer noted “NCAA Fencing is a bit of the Wild West”…and my experience spectating at the NU Duals only served to confirm that.

  • Speaking of wild…the new Northwestern fieldhouse needs to be singled out for praise. While I know the fencers were not big fans of the Astroturf rubber beads that inevitably made their way onto the strips and made for slippery conditions, this is a great place to spectate (though my daughter felt the lighting made it less desirable for fencing). The meet was held in the indoor football practice area, which I think is a regulation size field…with an 87-foot arched roof and stunning views of Lake Michigan. Adjacent indoor (and free on weekends!) parking was much appreciated.
  • The size of the venue was matched by the size of the field. I counted 18 women’s teams on the schedule, although not all teams fenced both days. Teams fenced as many as 11 dual matches over the course of 2 days, so theoretically a fencer could attend this one meet and get in enough bouts to qualify for regionals. It was a lot of fencing and by the end of the second day, I know that my daughter and her teammates were spent. The coach of my daughter’s team thinks of the NU duals as a good prep for regionals in terms of the number of bouts the kids have to fence. That said, a fencer I know who made nationals a few years ago considers the NU duals even more draining than either regionals or nationals. I know I was hoarse from cheering by the end of both days!
  • Going back to the “Wild West” notion…I’ve noted this before, but ratings and rankings don’t seem to matter once people square off on the NCAA strip. I was surprised to see that a reigning NCAA champion dropped a few bouts, and when I looked at the scores…many of those lost bouts were vs. unranked teams. My point here is that anything can happen, and sometimes does. If you’re a USA Fencer on the points lists, do not think that because “you’ve never heard of this person before” that your bout vs. someone is going to be easy.
  • CollegeFencing360 has the results from the meet, but I want to caution people regarding reading too much into the results. What they won’t tell you is that a team like Princeton was fencing with only 7 fencers total. Or that ND was missing some key players due to JWCs and injuries.
  • Speaking of injuries…man did there seem like there were a lot of “walking wounded” out there this weekend. I saw many kids with ice-packs and wraps on the floor or simply skipping Sunday competition due to injuries. The most notable IMO was ND’s top WE fencer…who was fencing lefty (not her regular weapon hand) when she did fence…she was mostly coaching and rooting for her teammates. Curious what the incidence rate is and if men or women or any particular weapon type is prone to injuries. I also heard talk of resting people in prep for future meets.
  • A few teams did not seem to field full rosters…in addition to Princeton, some of the unranked teams would have only 2 fencers in a given weapon. This must be challenging for the teams and the fencers…but most of the kids I saw seemed to be having fun and giving it their all. I’m surprised that the teams didn’t try to recruit other athletes or people from rec programs just to be able to put 3 people on the strip per weapon.
  • I’m going to touch on roster size again…definitely something to consider when thinking of schools. If your goal is to compete and not just “be on a team”, know that even some very very good fencers (even a few As that I know of) get limited fencing time due to roster size/team philosophy. I mention the team philosophy thing because I’ve seen some coaches stick with the same 3-4-5 fencers and others get as many people into the mix for a given dual match. Sometimes it seems dependent on how the team is doing (if they’ve clinched at 5 touches, starters get subbed out) and other times it seems like it doesn’t matter what the bout record is.
  • That brings me to another point. There seem to be so many approaches to setting line-ups for the dual meets. I wonder how much some coaches care about winning a particular dual vs. getting as many of their fencers 21 bouts (the minimum required for regionals) over the course of a season. I know that in the Ivy round-robins the coaches (and schools and alum!) seem to really want to win, but IMO, I got the feeling that for some coaches the team’s regular season W-L record doesn’t matter so much. They are more focused on getting 12 people to qualify for the NCAA championship.
  • Interesting to me was how some schools are particularly strong in a given weapon. Of course, many are strong in all three weapons…but, for example, while the Princeton women only went 6-5 overall this weekend, I don’t think anyone would argue with the fact that they have one of the more feared WE lines in the country, all three former/current national team members — including the reigning NCAA champion and a former NCAA silver medalist. Or UCSD, which while they are unranked in the most recent coaches poll, has a really good WE squad that beat epee squads from 4 ranked teams.
  • I predict some shakeups will occur in the next College Fencing 360 coaches poll…though as noted, some of the losses by highly ranked teams this past weekend were arguably due to short rosters or key fencers being unavailable for one reason or another. While the poll is subjective, it generally syncs up well with the NCAA Championship contenders at the end of the year.
  • I continue to really enjoy NCAA meets. As I’ve noted, even if your kid isn’t fencing well, you can root for other kids on the squad, for individual weapon squad victories, and the overall team win.
940

Hello Fellow parents.
My son is a junior in HS and we are in a process of making list of the prospective colleges
He currently holds c-rating. He is a less of a competitor type and does fencing because he loves it.
His UW GPA is 3.5 and will like to continue fencing in the college. He wants to pursue History or Mathematics in the college. Any suggestions/comments are welcome.