@2padawans - I concur with @BrooklynRye and encourage everyone to view a “letter of support” as a “pebble on the scale.” It’s impossible to know how much that pebble weighs, but always better to have one than not.
At some schools, the coach may not have enough “official” slots to fill out a roster. I expect “support” to mean more in that context, where the coach has a compelling case to admit more fencers. At other institutions, support may put an academic star over the top, but not help a stronger fencer whose scores and grades don’t stand out. (My kid was more accomplished on paper than on the strip, and all-but-assured ED admission at a couple of great non-Ivies. These institutions appeared to have enormous appetites for academic superstars who would be good teammates - and successful STUDENT-athletes - even if they weren’t at the top of the depth chart. The best offer from an Ivy League school was a letter of support.)
If schools are indeed trying to maximize their yield (ie, the % of admitted students who matriculate), ED-I and ED-II take on even more significance - applicants who aren’t in one of those pools have, in effect, told the Admission Office, “you’re not my first choice.” This complicates the calculus of deciding where to apply.
For Ivies that use fencing and other sports to lift the overall AI of their recruited athletes (i.e., to compensate for lower AIs in football, for example), the coach’s calculus will be constrained by the athletic department’s overall numbers. (It would be fascinating to know what the AI is for all of the Ivy League fencing squads, but I don’t know how anyone could reliably figure that out.)
Regardless of where your daughter ends up, college is a great thing, and she is going to have a fantastic time if she jumps in with both feet and immerses herself in her new school.
Thank you. I think we’re leaning toward the RD non-ivy. The school is rigorous, treats athletes with respect and provides excellent academic support as well. It seems to be the best of both worlds. As for the Ivy that offered support, the coach requested an official transcipt, official high school profile, senior class schedule and scores for a pre-read. He then came back and said they needed to be in PDF format so we converted them. Then, he said he had the pre-read but needed her senior class schedule in semester format and that it had to match the NCAA profile exactly. So, after jumping through some hoops at her high school, guidance uploaded her transcript again and we resent her senior schedule in the format he requested the next day. Then, we waited. After a couple of weeks, D left a message asking about her pre-read results and if anything else was needed. After another week, she sent an email letting the coach know her application was ready to submit. (Her way of reminding him that she was still waiting for her pre-read and time was running out) He finally sent an email with this message " You can submit your application anytime you want, just let me know when you do. I have you on my list for support. I hope it all works out. "
No mention of the pre-read. The dialogue with this coach began mid-July and ended last week. If there was a slot available, it must have gone to someone else or maybe he felt she had a good chance of getting in without using a slot. He may have had to use the slot for another strong fencer with weaker academics. Maybe my D’s AI is a bit of a curse after all.
@2padawans - I’m sorry this is so uncertain - it must be stressful. I agree with what @BrooklynRye and others have said in terms of it being a priority to choose the school that best meets your daughter’s academic and other needs (size, location, opportunities outside of fencing, etc.). I know this is a fencing thread, but there are actually important things that the kids do at school outside of fencing (imagine that! ;-)). It sounds like the school you are focusing on has the values you are looking for, which is great.
I am wondering one thing; you mention regular decision - does that school you are interested in not have an early decision process? It’s more a general thought than a fencing-specific one, but I always thought it was a good idea to apply ED when that was an option (make clear to the school it was your first choice, reduce stress by knowing earlier, and also have time for applying regular decision elsewhere if for some reason things don’t work out, etc.). Maybe I’m missing something but thought I’d ask…
In any case, good luck!
@SpaceVoyager - Not all schools require that official athletic recruits apply early. While it does seem to be the case at Ivies and some of the more elite academic DV1s and DV3s, it does not seem to always be true at the Big Box schools. Notable case in point is Notre Dame. This may have to do with limits on the number of early applicants the school will accept (perhaps related to school admission stats?). In any case, we are familiar with many top fencing recruits into ND who applied regular decision following the instructions of the coach.
@2padawans Just want to point out to all the current high school fencers, especially the junior (11th grade), especially those who are very high on the JPNL list, that timing of contacting the coach this year is of the utmost importance. From our experience from couple years ago, most of the elite fencers already met with the Ivy coaches by January of their junior year. Many had already given their verbal commitment to their top choice school by mid Spring semester of their junior year. Since the coaches hold true to their word, they honor their verbal commitment. Therefore, if all of their recruitment slots are filled by the end of Spring, no matter how great of a fencer comes along he/she will not be given a likely letter slot. Since the pre-read of the recruit is done during the summer, if one fails, there may be a slot that would open up. However, most coaches would know from experience if the athlete would have a good change of passing the pre-read.
Many Ivy schools start giving out the Likely letters on Oct 1 of the senior year. Therefore, any potential recruits contacting the coach in the Fall will have a very slim chance of being told a recruit slot is available. They may offer support for your application, but not a Likely Letter slot.
For those who are currently engaged, perhaps starting this season or looking forward to future seasons, link is for 2018-2019 NCAA Fencing Strength Factor Ratings, Championship information, and schedule and locations of Regional Competitions:
http://www.ncaa.org/championships/national-collegiate-fencing
@BrooklynRye: Thanks for sharing. Perhaps a refresher course on what the FSF is and how it factors into the NCAA championship selection is in order?
For those new to the Field Strength Factor (FSF) data that’s found at the link posted by @BrooklynRye, here’s a bit more background.
The FSF document lists the “final” end-of-season FSF data from last year. This is a score for each fencer based on their strength of competitors fenced and results against those competitors.
This list is all roster competitors from last season, so it will include graduated seniors, but does not include incoming freshman.
@BrooklynRye, the FSF is used to determine qualifications for NCAA regionals, correct? Can you also remind me of the relationship between FSF and the Power Rating Scale?
Edited to add: I was typing this up while @SevenDad replied above, but BrooklynRye is the real expert on this topic!
@stencils: One thing to note is that the FSF only counts for 40% of the final point total considered for the championship, and the fencer’s showing at regionals counts for 60%.
So a strong showing at regionals can make up for a so-so season and a so-so showing at regionals may trump a super strong season. Note that a Top 7-8 finish at regionals being a “must” for qualifying for the championship is not a hard and fast rule, but rather a very good guideline. There have been people who finished outside the top 7-8 at one of the larger regionals who still qualified for the championship. But it’s the exception rather than the rule.
For those interested in diving deeply into the calculation of the FSF, start reading on page 14 of the linked doc: https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/fencing/nc/2018-19NCXFE_PreChampsManual.pdf
Since the process of selecting fencers to compete at Regionals and, ultimately at the NCAA Championships, is so opaque, I advise against getting too weighed-down by these numbers. More often than not, it results in frustration and even confrontation with coaches as to why one’s fencer didn’t get to compete.
In essence, however, the Fencer’s Seeding Factor (FSF) is derived from a formula of a percentage of bouts against top fencers and a percentage of victories versus top fencers. The FSF counts 40% toward qualifying for an NCAA berth. The balance is derived from the fencer’s performance at Regionals.
The best I understand about Regionals is that the winner auto-qualfies for an NCAA berth. Finishers 2-10 in each gender/weapon also “qualify”. Initially there is a filtering process where qualifiers from schools that qualify more than 2 fencers are removed from the final standings. This in turn moves fencers outside the top 10 upwards. I think (but am not sure) that the FSF is used to rank those fencers outside of the top 10 so that the move up tends to qualify the best fencers from during the season. May stand corrected on this last bit.
“I advise against getting too weighed-down by these numbers.”
I agree with BrooklynRye on this…last year, I tried to calculate my daughter’s FSF before regionals and it made my head spin.
One interesting bit of news from the NCAA site is that the Mid-Atlantic/South Regional will be held at Duke this season, after a few years at Lafayette. This means that all teams except UNC/Duke are going to have to travel (at least 7+ hours by bus).
I think that FSFs are used to seed fencers, and generate first round and second round (for those who don’t fence in round 1) pools, at NCAA Regionals. They may be used at “open” tournaments, too.
Per the memo to coaches on the NCAA web site: “Regional Qualification. For a student-athlete to compete at their respective regional, they must compete in a minimum of 21 bouts, as well as achieve a 25-percent win-loss percentage in scheduled bouts.“
I’m pretty sure that the 21 bouts need to be against NCAA (not club) teams in scheduled dual meets - i.e., not “open” tournaments, such as the Garret Open at Penn State or The Big One at Smith College.
Some coaches may not bring all of their qualifying fencers to NCAA Regionals for budgetary or other reasons. And some student-athletes - especially seniors (?) who know (a) they’re not going to the NCAA Championships and (b) how brutal the competition at Regionals will be - may choose to forego Regionals in favor of studying/finishing a thesis…or a good off-campus party that isn’t a 7-hour bus ride away!
@EmptyNester2016 -
Yes. The FSF is used to seed fencers.
The regional qualification requirements are relatively easy to achieve considering that at a typical 4-5 team meet, a fencer can fence 10-12 bouts. Winning 1 out of 4 is also not excessive considering the field one will face at Regionals and beyond.
Believe you are correct that “open” meets like Garrett do not count for these totals.
Top teams are looking to qualify 2 fencers in every weapon for both genders, i.e., 12. Most of these teams will bring at least 3 per gender/weapon, with extra in any gender/weapon the coach views as more competitive to qualify 2 fencers.
This said, teams that have 2 very competitive fencers in a given gender/weapon, may simply send those 2. It saves slots or costs, as the case may be, and eliminates the possibility that a 3rd fencer in that squad outperforms, perhaps even winning the tournament, and suddenly displaces 1 of the top 2.
Budgetary concerns apply more often to less competitive, perhaps less well-funded programs. But there are indeed even top fencers who are not interested in going to NCAAs who will forego a shot at Regionals.
Hi dear fencing parents,
Looking for some advise. Daughter is heading to the October NAC tonight, where she has a meeting set up with a coach from one of her target schools (she is a junior). Should she go to that meeting herself, or can dad tag along? What do people generally do?
Thanks!
@tigermanan I think it’s perfectly fine to be with your daughter during the first meeting with the coach. You should try to make sure that she does most of the talking and asking. You should also have a few pertinent questions ready to ask the coach as well. When we started our recruitment process, our first meetings as well as other fencers were with their parents present. The follow up meetings and email correspondences were between the fencer and the coach.
@tigermaman
I agree with @noanswers above. Our experience was prior to allowed off-campus contact for juniors, so at summer nationals between junior and senior year it was a game of musical chairs as each prospect had multiple meetings with prospective coaches and a parent was almost always sitting with the student.
Coaches know these are still 16/17/18 year-old kids, and expect parents to listen in. The more the student is the lead in the conversation though, it demonstrates maturity to the coach. As a parent, I was silently gauging “Is this someone that I want as a strong role model for the next four years for my fencer?” – that fit is important too.
Good coaches will turn to the parent at the end and say “Do you have any questions?”
Thanks everyone for your replies. I have another question, which was probably addressed here before - I will go back and look. Is international experience super important? We haven’t really tried to go to any international competitions. My daughter is not so high on the points list to make the team easily each time, and frankly, expense and time commitment is too much. The only designated world cups she could go on would it in cadet. Not sure if traveling to any of those would be a worthwhile exercise. Daughter is worried that this is what Div 1 schools look at first (some coaches told her). She is not a slam dunk recruit - her fencing stats are good, but not amazing, but overall, she would make a nice addition to a team. At the October NAC in Div 1 she did better than all of her target school’s team members. I understand that at some point we, as parents, have to put our foot down and do what is the best for the whole family, but I am not opposed taking her to a couple of international tournaments if it may benefit her during college recruiting at the end.
@tigermaman
So interesting you asked; this was one of the first things we asked when coming to this forum initially. You will likely hear a variety of opinions, and it is certainly worth perusing earlier discussions on this. Key points were this:
- If the goal is a high-level academic college, the most important thing is to ensure that your daughter puts academics first. Some students are able to keep up with academic work while undertaking a rigorous travel schedule, others aren’t so that is for you to assess. This is a very personal decision that only you can figure out.
- We were fortunate to be encouraged to participate in the international circuit (also Cadet), including through excellent advice by members of this forum, and I would say that made a difference in a few ways. It inspired my child as a fencer; he got a whole other level of experience and practice; and eventually was able to medal on the international level. I hasten to emphasize that we did not go to the tournaments with those expectations – we just thought it would be a great experience, and he really wanted to do it, so we supported him.
- I am really not an expert in what all the coaches look for, but I do not get the sense that participating in international tournaments is a requirement; perhaps it demonstrates the level of interest in fencing a student has, but many students do not have the means (it is expensive) to do it, and there are certainly strong fencers who get recruited who do not. You mention that these may be constraints for you, so again, be your own judge about what works for your family.
- Again on the plus side, the tournaments are a lot of fun and if you look at it as an educational experience as well (traveling somewhere new, maybe take an extra day to tour if that is an option), then it can have value on its own. If you do go, I would encourage your daughter to do the team event for sure, those were highlights in our experience.
Congrats on the Div I achievement and good luck!
FWIW, I don’t think international experience is super important, especially for a second-tier recruit. (Many of the top-tier recruits will be pursuing a national team berth, so will probably do it if their family can afford it.)
The coaches know it costs money to go abroad and that not everyone has the means. Our daughter did a few Cadet events and never placed that high, but I don’t regret going (and I don’t think she does either). If you’re on the fence and/or would just prefer not to spend your money that way, don’t sweat it.
Also, I think your daughter’s relatively strong showing in Div1 compared to her target school’s current team WILL be noticed by the coaches, so that’s a good thing. Well done!
Thanks, @SpaceVoyager and @SevenDad , I appreciate the responses. Did you travel to designated or non designated tournaments? We are hoping to travel to designated events and make the team, but non-designated are also being considered. Also, what is the timeline? I know all cadet events mostly take place in the fall/early winter, and junior events start happening a little later. I know experience is important, so hopefully we can squeeze in at least one of those. These events are rarely in cheaper, easy to reach locations! 
Balancing academics and fencing is a challenge, for sure. But yes, happy at her showing at Div 1 competition, hope she can keep her performance a little more consistent though…