The Only College Fencing Recruiting Thread You Need to Read

Athletic Recruits
121

@toandfro - I wish you luck and fully respect your proposed course for your kids. I will note, from many years of experience, that fencing in particular is like a snowball rolling down a hill. One starts off slowly, often coming to this niche sport by happenstance, with lessons and local competitions. Then its a NAC and, of course, one’s first Summer Nationals. It gets into the blood this sport. Perhaps it is the unique combination of mind and body. Perhaps it is the incredibly precocious, eloquent and engaging demographic often represented in the sport. Whatever the reason, the passion only increases for most, successful or not, and the snowball rolls on. If the fencer shows potential or is even a “natural” as may happen, the snowball rolls even faster.

The pace and pressure of travel and training are intense, even more so when international competitions are part of the mix. The sport competes with high school, family, and friends. It is costly and wears on parents as well. But it is not always about that “critical junior year” nor is it always about the flashiest or highest ranked. Coaches will have seen your child compete many times, sometimes as far back as preteen, so you will not always be judged on the immediate, but rather on the composite of several years of work. In my experience, this is a sport that awards a body of work and does not endorse just a what-have-you-won-lately mentality.

All you cite as benefits of the sport are yours and your children’s for the taking just from lessons and even a minimum of competitions. But without the rigor of training and competition from which you propose to refrain, it is more than unlikely that your children will perchance find themselves at the top of any leader board. This is a sport of incredibly hard work, discipline and focus. This does not mean putting all of your eggs in one basket. Just, IMHO, don’t look for lightening in a bottle either.

122

Parents of older high school kids I know seem pretty worried about short-term results.

We travel domestically right now - pretty much the whole hog - as the kids are young, but at some point we will need to draw some kind of a line. Travel, particularly international travel, strikes me as extremely consuming and doesn’t leave a lot left for other interests and activities (or friends?).

If my kids are adamant about going “all out” when they are older, I’m not 100% sure I’d have the heart to stop them. But as their parent I don’t think I’ll be pushing for it.

123

They are misinformed and/or are competitive in the immediate without regard to college prospects. There child’s short-term results are not without value, but they are not the whole story by a long shot.

Where to draw the line is a personal prerogative. A given child’s ability to achieve an active social life, explore other activities, etc., is very much a function of the child. We know many fencers with outside interests including building computers from scratch for students in Indonesia, working in medical clinics in Honduras, and doing stand-up comedy. The tension between the balance you ideally seek and the passion for the sport is what becomes most telling. How your children handle this tension, the choices they make, will decide many of these questions.

The going “all out” is largely the parent’s decision. Our kids don’t get to unilaterally spend our money, at least not to the degree required by international fencing. I was just giving a fellow parent the benefit of my experience. If you don’t intend to support it, beware the snowball gathering too much speed and size for you to stand in its way.

124

@toandfro If your child is indeed very young (betw 8 to 11?) then by all means he/she should explore all activities before going “all out” in one particular activity. But I think by the time they are a high school freshman, they may have a much stronger sense if fencing is something they would want to pursue with more passion. This strengthened passion will help them to withstand the grueling practice regimen, to make more fencing friends and fencing more enjoyable, and to strive to become the best fencer one can become and pursue the highest possible achievement one can obtain as an athlete. I think most top level fencers have this kind of drive. Then it goes without saying that these are the kinds of athletes the college coaches will want on their teams.

125

Chiming in as the parent of a current junior…

This is the first season that we’ve gone to every NAC…and admittedly it has been a little much. But I don’t see the addition of international events (if you can afford the time/money) as that much different from NACs. Assuming a “two events per month” schedule…you just slot in the international for a ROC or RJCC or whatever. Or swap out a NAC.

My daughter’s fenced at one international event each of the past two seasons and despite not earning any additional points on either trip…both were totally worth it. I mean, c’mon…what’s not to like about exploring Vienna on foot at night/eating French fries in France/sight seeing in Europe in general?? Another great aspect of of going on international trips is the opportunity it affords to get to know parents/fencers from different clubs. To see them as friends/teammates instead of rivals.

Now, of course, I’ve seen some kids falter and others rise this season…but for the most part, the strong kids remain the strong kids. By and large the status quo has held. Additionally, as BrooklynRye states above…one bad season does not a fencer make!

Going back to my post #117 above…making it all about getting recruited/getting into the “right” college is probably unhealthy. But IMO, that’s unhealthy even without fencing in the mix. People need to start adding “for me” to their thinking…Instead of “I want to get get into the best college.”…it should be “I want to get into the best college for me.”

Being realistic about ones chances also helps. I think this is covered in some of the posts that kick off this thread. Maybe those parents and kids you are observing stressing have their hearts set on one of the top teams…when in reality, theirs skill set is better suited for a less competitive team. Best of luck to you and your kids. I hope they continue to enjoy the sport.

126

@toandfro
Thanks for sharing.

As this is a college fencing recruiting thread on a website that provides unfiltered insight on the college admissions process, your comments seem misplaced. Perhaps your posts should be moved to the “Don’t Worry Be Happy” section of the Parents Café?

More seriously, if you don’t see your children (or you) dedicating themselves to fencing, that is fine and is your choice. However, if you hope/plan/expect/want them to go to an elite college, know you will be making a high level commitment to excellence in some field/activity/endeavor to achieve that goal. If your kids like to fence, why not fencing?

FWIW, the college application process has gotten so competitive and ugly, I would offer that all HS kids with aspirations of elite college admission are stressed out (not only the fencers).

As someone who has now been through the college admission process twice, once with a recruited athlete and again without the advantage of athletics, I will tell you that getting into an elite college is not easy and requires that the student’s exhibit tireless hard work, focus, and most importantly sacrifice IN SOMETHING to make themselves worthy candidates. To support this level of dedication, parents are often called on to make similar efforts and sacrifices to help their children distinguish themselves.

I am not saying this is right, it is just the world we live in.

So if it is not fencing, it will be something else( if attending an elite college is important to you or your kids). Elite-level excellence, whether it is in athletics, science/math, community service, etc. is time consuming, expensive and often requires sacrifices (other activities/friends/travel etc) to achieve recognizable levels of excellence. On the plus side, properly executed these sacrifices will develop amazing time management skills in young people.

As your children are young, hopefully you have some time before they have to commit to, and demonstrate being excellent in something. Please let us know if and when you or your children find something worth making sacrifices for (if it is not fencing).

However, if they stay in fencing, you may find that the contributions made to this thread by parents who came before you to be insightful, if not useful.

As I mentioned earlier, I have been thru the elite college admissions process twice, one was a recruited fencer and the other was not an athlete. While both kids were admitted to their first choice Ivy, ON A RELATIVE BASIS, the process was much easier and less stressful for our fencer. When you become more familiar with the process of elite college admissions, you will realize that varsity athletics is one of the last remaining venues that can make the elite college admissions process easier, earlier and more certain (with definable milestones).

In your posts you mentioned how stressed out HS fencers and their parents seem. Are they any less stressed out than HS kids and families are who are not potential varsity athletes?

Good luck to you and your kids whichever direction you go.

127

Thanks all for your input. All your thoughts are helpful, and this thread generally is so useful in a niche activity where not a lot of good information is available.

I don’t want to detail the particulars of the individuals I’ve seen. I will say we live in an area known for very competitive high quality fencing, where there are nationally ranked fencers who are recruited to the big names. I’m very impressed by the hard work and dedication I’ve seen, and generally have been impressed by the kids and adults this sport attracts. The stress does seem high to me, though I admit maybe too much of my time is being consumed hanging out with fencing folks.

I have two kids, neither in high school yet. My older daughter loves it and is catching on fast, but she also has significant talents in other areas like the arts, and I could see her pursuing those with similar enthusiasm. My younger son is still deep in his elementary years, but his drive for fencing is such that, if it continues, I’d have to let him pursue as far as he wants, including the crazy travel.

Didn’t want to derail the discussion - just wanted to add a slightly different perspective.

128

It’s all good, toandfro. Your perspective is quite valid and expands the dimensions of our ongoing shared experiences and discussion. Btw, not to get off topic, my daughter just went through the art school search last year and is a happy (if exhausted) freshman at the Rhode Island School of Design. Threads on CC for dedicated art school are numerous and filled with all kinds of useful information. Feel free to PM if you would like to talk about art schools!

129

“In your posts you mentioned how stressed out HS fencers and their parents seem. Are they any less stressed out than HS kids and families are who are not potential varsity athletes?”

I totally agree with this. I think the stress level and it’s intensity is just as high whether one’s an athlete or not, just in a different form. As a parent of a current high school junior, anything that is happening this year will be the culmination of the final “college admission package”, especially if the student is a high level fencer seeking to be recruited to an elite Div 1 school. But I also remember when my older son when he was a junior/senior (not an athlete) his and our stress level was just as intense in getting prepared for college admission, knowing how extremely difficult it is now to get accepted into a “good” school. It goes without saying, all the juniors in my son’s school realize that they are at the final lap of a long marathon, and they and their parents are all on “high alert”. So, @toandfro when you see the high school juniors and their parents appearing to be all very nervous and stressed out, believe you me, it isn’t just because of fencing. Fencing is just one of the reasons.

130

How 'bout this Kansas City weather, though?

131

Some observations from the 2017 JOs (besides the atypically warm weather for JOs):

  • Many coaches were scouting/watching the HS Class of 2018 (and possibly 2019)…they must already have a “watch list”...(most wear logo gear, so it's not like it's hard to tell who they are)
  • I saw some conversations between Div1 coaches and some of the top prospects in the weapon/gender category I’m most familiar…just “exchanging pleasantries”, I’m sure.
  • Don’t know if this is mentioned earlier in this thread, but apparently Div3 coaches can talk to prospects after the end of an HS student’s Sophomore year…(and can schedule an official visit starting Jan 1 of student’s Junior year, accord to rulebook). I definitely saw one rep of a Div3 school taking quick meetings on the competition floor.
132

To give some support to toandfro’s concerns voiced above, I also overheard a parent telling their kid (who I assume had just been knocked out of whatever bracket) something to the effect of “Now you’re going to be invisible to colleges!” in a very disapproving tone. So I guess the pressure is there for some.

133

I also saw some coaches intently watching at least one member of the HS Class of 2017. Sure, the top fencing programs have long been locked into their fencers, but some academically solid schools with fencing programs can still grab someone if they really want that person.

On a related note, I know of a Class of 2016 fencer last year who wasn’t actively recruited through the fall but was guaranteed admittance right after JOs to a school that had both a stronger academic program and fencing program than his/her ED choice (where the coach was interested, but not that interested). His/Her fencing results had taken a solid move up throughout the fall season through JOs.

134

Perhaps boiling this down a bit from the anecdotal and speculative, to more concrete advice for inquirers on this thread…

  1. Coaches watch fencers of all ages, particularly once the fencer is in high school. Attention to a sub-Junior year fencer can be genuine curiosity or the fencer could be the coach's niece or nephew.
  2. With RD due out next month, the recruitment of the class of 2021 is pretty much over. Hence the interest in 2022, in earnest post-JOs, i.e., the close of the upper age division season. If nothing else, there is a ready depth chart (or "watch list" if you prefer) in the form of the Rolling Points.
  3. Are there recruitment lines crossed at and outside of tournaments? Probably. But I (naively?) believe most coaches at top programs are cognizant of and strive to avoid flagrant violations.
  4. Recruitment is fluid. Commitments are not etched in stone and things have a way of changing at the last minute. Lville's 2016 may have lucked into a sudden vacancy at a school that thought it had that slot filled. His 2016 could also have agreed to defer a year and come in as a 2017 recruit. Seen both happen more than you might think.

Most importantly. Attention to which coaches are watching which fencers, which fencer is visiting which school, and the general play-out of each recruitment season is fascinating. We all get caught up in it. But don’t allow the ‘noise’ to outweigh your better judgement on behalf of your fencer. Don’t be dissuaded from your fencer’s top choice because you believe someone ‘better’ is already locked in. Don’t look to settle on a lesser choice simply because the depth chart or the talk tell you it’s a safer bet. Be realistic. Use all your tools. But (please) try to filter out circumstantial, anecdotal input. It will drive you crazy!

135

I’ve witnessed parental rants similar to what @SevenDad describes above – at SYCs! Apparently some parents believe a bad pool in a Y14 event is going to prevent their kid from getting into Harvard…

I’ll also echo and expand on @BrooklynRye 's comments from the perspective of a parent of a class of 2017 fencer in the second tier of recruits. By second tier I am referring to fencers that are highly rated (As and Bs), but are not on the top half of junior points list (or perhaps not on the point list at all).

Recruitment is fluid Recruiting in this second tier is probably more fluid and goes on later in the year than the points-list fencers, as there are still uncommitted A/B-rated 2017 fencers being actively recruited by selective schools and competitive fencing teams to fill out rosters. This week I spoke to a parent of an uncommitted B rated men’s fencer that met with multiple coaches at JOs. Naturally that student has already applied to these schools and is just waiting on RD admit decisions, but will likely have multiple options and make their decision in Mar/April.

There are more roster openings in Div1 programs every year than there are points-list fencers in that year’s class. Once the tier-one candidates commit, coaches need to complete their roster with second tier. As BrooklynRye pointed out, roster slots can suddenly appear when a prized prospect changes their mind about their top choice or an unexpected admit denial occurs.

Recruitment lines crossed: Especially in this second tier, it is our experience that Div1 coaches are very careful to not violate recruitment rules. They return emails and will do unofficial on-campus meetings prior to July 1 for rising seniors, but off-campus contacts (at a NAC, for example) are limited to “Hello, nice to see you again. Good luck fencing today.”

136

I can safely say that the coaches have not approached my HS Jr. who is doing fairly well. I usually don’t travel anymore, but did grab a last minute flight for JO’s. SevenDad, you will have to point those coaches out to me at SN because with a few exceptions, I don’t know who they are. And I’m so concentrated on the kid’s bouts, getting Gatorade, food and Advil that if they are around, I don’t really notice. On a side note, current university team members can be incredible salespeople. “why do you want to go there?” “you should come visit” etc etc. Don’t count out the fact that current team members want people that they have confidence in and get along with.

137

You make some great points, Chelsea.

First, by all means avail yourself of students at schools in which your fencer is interested. They are are a great resource for inside information about the coach, program and team members. They are also not bound by NCAA recruitment rules. Coaches often canvas their current team members both for recommendations of future recruits as well as evaluations of those already on the coach’s radar. While the coach clearly has prerogative, there are more than a few cases in which the team has come out strongly against a certain recruit and prevailed.

Second, while the coaches may be obvious (team colors and all that), their focus is not. I had an experience where parents were all aflutter because they thought the head coach of an elite Ivy was watching their son compete. He was sitting on the strip speaking with another coach. Turned out he just sat there to talk to the other coach, having on particular interest in the bout on the strip or in either of the fencers.

Third, have you tried Nuun,Chelsea? Great alternative to Gatorade!

138

Thanks Brooklyn, I’ve never heard of it before. Looks great. I always send along a bag of snacks, protein drinks and the individual packets of powdered gatorade, but this looks like a very interesting alternative! We did discover the Mountain Dew energy drink last weekend. Disgusting but absolutely necessary on the third straight day of competition.

139

@chelsea465 Any Div 1 coaches will not be approaching HS Jr during any of the tournaments, despite how good of a fencer one may be. And if you try to approach any one of them outside of their campus, aside from some pleasantries, you likely will not get much a meaningful response. I agree with BrooklynRye in that the current team members seem to have a significant role in “assisting” with the recruitment process. They would often act as a “scout” to feel out potential recruits they are friends or at least familiar with. So if your child is friends with fencers from schools he/she is interested in, may not be a bad idea to have your child reach out to them on whether their coach will recruit anyone new in their weapon.

140

As I have mentioned in prior posts, it is important to separate the noise from what is meaningful in the recruiting process.

Because my son was a late bloomer fencing-wise we got a late start to the college recruiting process. We did not have meaningful contact with coaches before the SN between junior and senior year and certainly did not keep track of whom the college coaches were talking to/watching at NACs or JOs.

Quite frankly, these sort of distractions add noise to the process whose nuances require focus and the ability to ignore anecdotal/circumstantial noise, no matter how loud it gets.

Every year there are probably some HS fencing superstars (like @brooklynrye’s son), whom all the elite programs want and some level of non-binding early recruitment happens. These kids are rare and I offer that these early commitment examples are more the exception than the rule. That being said, these early recruits (jf any) do set the stage for the dominoes that fall after July 1st.

Nevertheless, opportunities for HS fencers to continue fencing in college are many, and the good news is if someone wants to fence in college, they most likely can at some level. The bad news is, there are some (fencers/parents) who only want to fence for certain colleges. This is where the process becomes problematic and the noise becomes the loudest.

In our experience, all the coaches we contacted junior year/before SN cited NCAA rules but encouraged our son to email updates of fencing results and academic accomplishments. At NACs and JOs, despite my best efforts, none of the coaches seemed interested in meeting with us, and if they were watching my son, they exhibited NSA-level stealth capabilities.

However, at the end of the process, despite little contact before SN, our son ultimately received 5 LL offers (out of 6 men’s Ivy programs). If anyone in our weapon had believed they had received an early commitment from any of these 5 schools, it is possible that they may have experienced some level of surprise/disappointment late in the process.

I am not sharing these statistics to brag, but rather to assure HS fencers and their families that this noisy process is long, and that is not over until it is over (which is well past July 1st). Had we listened to all the noise and not been disciplined about continuing to update the coaches of the programs we were most interested in, things may have worked out less favorably.

In our recruitment year there were at least 2 examples of highly-ranked fencers who made their “early commitments” known, who ultimately did not end up at those academically-elite programs. Practically speaking, the junior year academic file cannot be complete until June, so no matter how much a college coach may say they want your fencer, it is never done until admissions signs off. What this means is that most aspiring college fencers should keep all options open until at least July 1st.

Obviously, a HS fencer who is a world or national #1, may enjoy some wiggle room on commitment timing if their academics are strong. Honestly if your fencer is this level of recruit, you do not need college recruiting advice from a bunch of strangers on a public website.

That being said, it is important to be realistic. If you believe you have a “special” fencer and have not yet received an explicit early commitment from an academically-elite school by junior year JOs, I am reminded of Warren Buffett’s famous quote:

“if the phone don’t ring, you’ll know it’s me”

Not having a commitment by junior year JOs is not a tragedy. In my opinion only a small handful of HS fencers are really done by junior year JOs, and the majority of commitments happen after July 1st.

As I think back on our experience, I recall that one coach told us that his program was looking for a recruit who was going to do his/her best fencing in college. While this may seem obvious, he told us that some HS fencers with years of global fencing success can be stale by the time they get to college and may not have the enthusiasm required for another four years of NCAA fencing.

It was because of this coach’s approach and attitude that we committed to his program over other academically-elite programs. I am proud to report that my son is much better fencer today than he was in HS and he continues to improve. At last week’s Ivy Championships, he defeated a number of fencers he could have never beaten during HS.

In summary, I think there are many ways to be recruited to academically-elite college fencing programs. While I can understand some of the reasons for early commitments, I think that college coaches also look for less obvious qualities such as yet to be unrealized individual potential and contributions to team balance (who is going to make the environment in the fencing room better?). These qualities become more obvious the longer/later the observation period.

While I think we have created a nice body of work here on this thread, I caution fencers and their parents from getting too nutty about the process. Hopefully, aspiring fencers and their families can put their best foot forward and stay disciplined/focused, without letting the noise get too loud.

With all the current recruits who are following our thread, I hope they can provide feedback/insights on their experiences to add to the institutional memory of this database of qualitative college fencing recruiting information.