The Original Eight Public Ivies

College Search & Selection
21

<p>In no particular order....</p>

<p>1.UC Berkeley
2.University of Michigan
3.UCLA
4.William and Mary
5.UNC
6.Rutgers
7.UT Austin
8.University of Virginia</p>

22

<p>Canadian universities were included in post #15 above by ClassicRockerDad.</p>

23

<p>
[quote]
I would knock the schools that are more than 90% instate as too provincial for an OOS student.

[/quote]

Because 90%+ from in-state negatively impacts the quality of academic education or post-graduate opportunities? Sure. Makes sense to me...</p>

24

<p>Can someone post the stats of these public iveies? I'm particularly interested of the % of OOS and International Students of the student body. I'm just thinking that maybe, due to their huge student body, the % of OOS & IS would drop significantly. But when you actually count the number of students, they might equal in population to a top private student body.</p>

25

<p>
[quote]
I would knock the schools that are more than 90% instate as too provincial for an OOS student.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It could be that there are simply a much larger # of in-state students. Case in point: Berkeley and UCLA. The population size in CA smokes that in Michigan or Virginia, so you can understand why. (Not to mention that CA is so large that it's far from "provincial.") And of course, what calicartel said.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm just thinking that maybe, due to their huge student body, the % of OOS & IS would drop significantly. But when you actually count the number of students, they might equal in population to a top private student body.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's pretty much it. But people tend to go for "per capita," as it tends to make them feel better.</p>

<p>If you'd like to find out the % OOS/IS, search College</a> Search - SAT Registration - College Admissions - Scholarships for colleges; it's listed on the first page.</p>

26

<p>If we're comparing undergraduate experiences from publics in different states, than presumably people are looking OOS. Otherwise, just go to your own state's publics and why discuss it. If all you want out of college is an academic education or a post-graduate opportunity, then if you live in California or Texas, why even look OOS. For everybody else, I contend that being an OOS student at a school with over 90% instate would be an intellectually and socially unattractive scenario and my list was for those people.</p>

27

<p>Which one of you Californians are seriously ready to head out to UT-Austin?</p>

28

<p>
[quote]

For everybody else, I contend that being an OOS student at a school with over 90% instate would be an intellectually and socially unattractive scenario and my list was for those people.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This should be a case-to-case basis, IMO. Like what Kyle has said, California is cosmopolitan in nature. Almost all races are already represented. That alone is more than a scenario you would find in a school with 90% OOS.</p>

29

<p>
[quote]

Which one of you Californians are seriously ready to head out to UT-Austin?

[/quote]

UT-Austin's business school (for undergrad) is worth going for, actually, but it's quite a selective program. But you have a good point, anyway.</p>

<p>But since I said, it's a case-to-case basis, let's reverse the question and ask the students of Texas how they viewed UC Berkeley, a school as good, if not better than many top privates, if they'll head to Cal if they get an offer.</p>

30

<p>
[quote]
I contend that being an OOS student at a school with over 90% instate would be an intellectually and socially unattractive scenario

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wait, what? Intellectually?</p>

<p>I think you'd find the "socially" bit to be much less true in reality. In fact, in all my time on CC (longer than even my join date will say), nobody has been able to substantiate that.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Which one of you Californians are seriously ready to head out to UT-Austin?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A few things:</p>

<p>1) Why in the world would a Californian go to UT when there are plenty of amazing publics in-state? Berkeley and UCLA smoke UT. And any top-rated program UT has, there is invariably a top-rated program in-state (one that is usually, if not always, ranked above UT).</p>

<p>2) California does send many students to Texas for uni. I know students from my high school who are going to TAMU, UT, etc. Not many, of course, but some. (Some are also going to U Oklahoma, U Wyoming, U Washington, etc.).</p>

<p>
[quote]
Almost all races are already represented. That alone is more than a scenario you would find in a school with 90% OOS.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Exactly. UCs are blessed with the ability to draw mainly from CA and still have an extremely diverse student body. Tons of ethnicities, cultures, languages, etc. are represented, just in, say, Berkeley or UCLA. Not to mention there is enough cultural and geographic difference between southern and northern California that one could justifiably call them two different states.</p>

31

<p>Kyledavid, everything you say is true and you make my case beautifully, no disrespect intended. For the California student, the rest of the nation is irrelevant. Your list of public ivies should be Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD, UCSB, UCSC, UCIrvine, UCRiverside, UCDavis, UCMerced. Why in the world would you need to look elsewhere. You can get all of the diversity that you need just by going to the other half of the state. Those that surf the waves of Hermosa Beach get to meet those that cruise the malls of Silicon Valley's El Camino Real. The the rest of the world doesn't even need to enter the equation. Other states are for people that can't get into UCSomething.</p>

<p>The situation is different, however, for the student from the East. While the private Ivys attract students from all over the world with a much wider range of experiences to share, places like Michigan, McGill, and Virginia attract that wide audience also. And you are right that since the schools are so huge, the number of OOS and internationals are also just huge. This is simply not the case at UCLA or Berkeley undergrad. These schools seem like unattractive Ivy alternatives for someone OOS. Just my opinion.</p>

32

<p>


</p>

<p>Besides Berkeley (obviously), and to a much lesser extent UCLA, please provide a list of the other California schools that can 'usually, if not always' rank above UT.</p>

<p>Texas is also very similar to California in that even though it is required by law to be 90% in-state, the fact that Texas is the second largest state in the country as well as the fastest growing economy insures significant diversity on the Austin campus.</p>

33

<p>
[quote]
prestige boost from being a California public as well as having a medical school on campus

[/quote]

Talk about grasping at straws. Do people really think that having a med school on campus adds prestige? Research funds, sure -- but prestige... that's laughable.<br>
And being a public in CA gets bonus points too? Wow... I guess UCSC, UCM, UCR, and pretty much all of the CSUs missed that memo...</p>

<p>
[quote]
Texas' premier medical school is in Dallas at UT-Southwestern (btw- UT-Southwestern has more Nobel Laureates on faculty than any medical school in the country, but unfortunately this does little for UT-Austin's rep).

[/quote]

That's right - UT-Southwestern is separate from UT-Austin -- so why should it do anything for UT-Austin's rep? UCSF (with three Nobel laureates - just one less than UT-Southwestern) is among the top three medical programs in the nation... but it does not and should not do anything for UCB because it's not Cal's medical school. Simple as that.</p>

34

<p>If costs were similar, I might choose UT-Austin as a California student for several reasons:</p>

<ol>
<li> Desire to go away to school.</li>
<li> Strong reputation in fields I would be interested in pursuing, such as business and engineering.</li>
<li> Austin is a fun town.</li>
<li> Texas women are fine!!</li>
</ol>

35

<p>
[quote]
UCLA has certainly given UT a run for its money and is ranked higher in some fields (just as UT is ranked higher than it various academic fields), but it in no way "smokes" UT.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Fine, you can say "run for its money" instead.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Please provide data from all the ranking sources that show the other California schools have anywhere near the same academic breadth and depth of UT-Austin.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
please provide a list of the other California schools that can 'usually, if not always' rank above UT.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I never asserted that all or many California publics have programs that are "usually, if not always," ranked above UT. I said that CA students can invariably find a top-rated program in-state. So that means that somewhere, at some UC (perhaps CSU, but I'm focusing on UCs), there is a top-rated program. The point is: for anything that UT can offer, a CA student can find an equal if not better program in-state. Berkeley covers pretty much all of them, though the other UCs collectively reinforce this -- UCSC, for example, has top-10 linguistics and astrophysics departments, UCSB has a top physics department, etc.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Texas is also very similar to California in that even though it is required by law to be 90% in-state

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The issue is a bit stickier for UCs. Berkeley, for example, considers in-state residency "very important." UCLA, though, says it's "not considered." The UCs vary in this respect. I haven't heard of any quota requirements for in-state students, but there might be.</p>

36

<p>ClassicRockerDad:</p>

<p>
[quote]
These schools seem like unattractive Ivy alternatives for someone OOS.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you contend that, then I’d contend that U Mich, UVA, UNC, etc. are also unattractive Ivy alternatives for someone OOS. (The only difference between those and the top UCs is population and, in turn, selectivity for OOSers; the Ivies are known for their selectivity, and so are the top UCs, both for in-state and OOS, so that isn’t a reason to rule out the top UCs as elite publics. And obviously we’re talking quality public schools here, not match/reach/safety choices.)</p>

37

<p>My Eight(based on who I think deserves it):
UMich
Berkeley
UCLA
UW
UVa
W&M
UT
UNC</p>

<p>Bland, I know.</p>

<p>Which 8 I would want to go to(no cost issues):
UMich
UVa
UNC
UT
UW
Pitt
UCSD
Colorado</p>

38

<p>
[quote=]
Talk about grasping at straws. Do people really think that having a med school on campus adds prestige? Research funds, sure -- but prestige... that's laughable.

[/quote]


</p>

<p>Not saying it's true, but many others on here have stated Southern, and to a lesser extent Midwestern schools, get less 'prestige' by East/West coast types. Others have brought up this argument for why Rice isn't ranked higher, for example. So maybe there's some element of truth to it or not, but there is certainly an aura of prestige that (fairly) stems from the UC System's accomplishments, which may (unfairly) trickle down farther than it should to the lower system institutions. While many of the UC schools indeed have stellar departments, I also think it's fair to say only Berkeley and UCLA are comparable to UT-Austin in terms of overall academic breadth/depth.</p>

<p>
[quote=]
The issue is a bit stickier for UCs. Berkeley, for example, considers in-state residency "very important." UCLA, though, says it's "not considered." The UCs vary in this respect. I haven't heard of any quota requirements for in-state students, but there might be.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I didn't realize this with the UC System, but UT-Austin's 90% minimum undergrad and slightly more "lenient" 70-80% for grad school in-state requirement even predates the top 10% undergrad admissions law. UT's arms are pretty well tied by the legislature when it comes to controlling admission, but it's done quite well in terms of international prestige, despite this provincialism.</p>

39

<p>Kyledavid, with UNC, it's just a question of where you draw the line, but I'll concede the point on that one. However, for Michigan and UVA, OOS is a much larger population.</p>

<p>Berkeley - 7% OOS, 4157 freshman, 291 OOS
Michigan - 34% OOS, 5060 freshman, 1720 OOS
UVA - 33% OOS, 3095 freshman, 1021 OOS</p>

<p>It's the difference between 1/3 vs. 1/14. It's perhaps the difference between feeling welcome or feeling like an outsider. Again, it's just an opinion and your arguments are not unreasonable.</p>

40

<p>For undergraduate education, which do you think is the better school between UT-Austin and UCSD?</p>