<p>Quote: "all triggered by a few students doing something really stupid."</p>
<p>...Or it could be that the majority of the students routinely engage in stupid behavior and taht only a few get caught. We just don't know from the information presented.</p>
<p>Once again.... faced with something less than perfect about Swat, assume it's only a few students doing something really stupid.</p>
<p>I'd just love a parent (* names deleted by Mod*) admitting that their kid did something stupid under the influence. It would sure boost your credibility as real live parents who have raised real adolescents.</p>
<p>[Personal comment deleted by Mod] you surely cannot believe that the bulk of the drinking goes on during the weekend of the Harvard/Yale game. Legions of parents who take the Saturday morning tour with their HS kids have reported on the scene as they wade through beer cans walking to Byerly hall. It was a major item of discussion at the Harvard presentation I attended in my area; the Adcom was happy to inform us that the City of Cambridge has banned the sale of kegs which made the parents who had seen the wall high stacks of beer cans outside the houses laugh hysterically. Ban kegs? So kids drink a 6 pack at one sitting. talk about denial.</p>
<p>And wasn't there some Mather Lather deal last year? Cops had to shut the party down.... and I don't think it was the w/end of The Game.</p>
<p>Perhaps, I should define the term "really stupid" behavior.</p>
<p>Three of the four incidents that resulted in citations at the Halloween Party were:</p>
<p>a) a student urinating in the middle of an intersection in downtown Swarthmore in plain view of police car</p>
<p>b) a student staggering and falling down the center line of an street in downtown Swarthmore in plain view of a police car</p>
<p>c) a student picked up and removed from the party by campus security (after a proper call by the Party Associates). Questioned by police upon his arrival at the Health Center, the student became beligerant with the officers and earned a disorderly conduct citation along with public drunkeness. This guy, BTW, was one of the three hospital transports last year at the college. He was able to walk (run, in fact) and was transported to the hospital mostly because the alternative was cuffing him and transporting him to jail.</p>
<p>I think each of these students well and truly earned their citations. In all three cases, the student went out of his way to get arrested and screwed it up for the 750 or so people in attendance at the school's largest party of the year.</p>
<p>It is theortetically possible that the majority of Swarthmore students pee in the middle of an intersection in downtown Swarthmore in front of a police car and don't get caught. However, I don't believe that is likely.</p>
<p>But ID, I think you're missing the OP's point. As Blossom has already pointed out, nearly all underage Swarthmore students consume alcohol in a responsible and orderly manner that is unheard of in practically any other non-religious institution in the country. World, probably. But Eddy's point was that Swarthmore is doing what got the Williams officials busted 10 years ago--and that was his concern. The liability the college incurs with this policy, not the behavior of underage wine-sipping Swatties discussing Kant and Hegel.</p>
<p>No, of course, I do not deny that drinking happens at Harvard. I did mention that Harvard deans were concerned about excessive drinking, didn't I? I was reporting on MY son's and no one else's experience. I know my son does not drink because he does not like the taste. Would not touch beer, champagne, or wine at home--not for the lack of offering (I was raised in France, after all). So I really don't see what your objection is about.</p>
<p>I also did not mean to suggest that excessive drinking happens only at The Game. I DID say that excessive drinking tends to happen at specific events. I took note of The Game because it happens before Thanksgiving which is when Mr. Seaman visited the infirmary. Mather Lather happens in the Spring--in fact right when my S was attending the admitted students weekends. </p>
<p>Again, I am not saying that my son is typical or that his Harvard experience is typical. It would be a hard claim to make consdering that he has been there all of two weeks. Just that, if there is a lot of drinking, it has not affected him or his suitemates.</p>
<p>And, Blossom, I take real offense at the suggestion that I lack credibility because I am not admitting that my S has done anything stupid. HE has not--at least so far. So I can't oblige. But in the meantime, I believe an apology is in order: to me and to my son.</p>
<p>Driver:</p>
<p>You may have hit upon something with your comment about "non-religious" institutions. Maybe the Quaker influence at Swarthmore really still prevails? All the students could be closet Quakers.</p>
<p>"In the nineteenth century Quakers saw the bad effects that drink and drunkenness had in society. Along with other Non-conformist Christians they campaigned against alcohol. Many Quakers were active in the Temperance Movement - a movement of people who "took the pledge" (promising that they would never drink alcohol) as a witness against the evils it caused."</p>
<p>Could you please enable your PM and PM me? I tried to contact you but you allow neither PM nor e-mails.</p>
<p>Thanks for your cooperation,
Mod JEM</p>
<p>I was actually married at the Swarthmore Friends Meeting, on campus. No drinks allowed there, but it doesn't apply to the rest of campus. Not a lot of Quakers there anymore. No, the uniquely responsible use of alcohol by the Swatties has to do with their exceptional nature--at least that's my theory. But the perception that the administration supplies booze to parties is something the legal department should take a hard look at.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'd just love a parent (Marite, Interestdad-- any takers?) admitting that their kid did something stupid under the influence. It would sure boost your credibility as real live parents who have raised real adolescents.
[/quote]
Interestingly, I have long thought that SOME of these kids adopt this lifestyle eventually because adults consider it a given that they will (the parental form of "wink, wink, nudge, nudge"). I was just oppositional enough as a teen to ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to do these types of things (drugs, heavy alcohol) if only because I considered it a challenge NOT TO in the face of all the adults and other kids saying, "EVERYONE will do it eventually." </p>
<p>To those people I would say, "Thanks all!" It was precisely because of those peole that I never so much as experimented with marijuana or any other illegal drug even ONCE in all of my life. I drank in extreme moderaton, just as I had done before I left for college (the drinking age in Texas at that time was 18). That meant ONE beer or ONE glass of wine. </p>
<p>It is foolish to think that every "normal" kid must experience alcohol abuse or do something "stupid" to be "real". I did not. My son has not. I am not guaranteeing that he never will use alcohol, but my guess is that if he ever decides to drink, it will be responsibly and with the restraint he's observed in his own family. He has NEVER been "preached at" regarding this stuff, only had a decent example set for him. My money's on him, notwithstanding the adults around him who may think that he WILL become involved in this as a matter of course. I expect more of him than the parents who express the notion that a kid is not a REAL kid if he DOESN'T do this stuff.</p>
<p>And yes, I am a REAL, imperfect parent of perfectly imperfect children, even if they don't abuse alcohol! ~berurah
p.s. My kids manage to do really stupid stuff sometimes while NOT under the influence <em>lol</em>.</p>
<p>I'm sorry this is a topic that raises people's hackles. The intensity of the drinking at some of the high-pressure schools is troubling, for sure. But I think one difference is intensity vs. duration. Example: my daughter attended an intense LAC; her best friend, even a better student, attended our state's big U. My daughter, a nondrinker in high school, partied on weekends in college and probably did some stupid things. But she was too overworked to do more than weekend partying.</p>
<p>Her best friend flunked out of big state U by spring! She was a nerd in high school like my daughter, but found herself in an atmsophere that encouraged partying on week nights, too. She said that of 24 freshmen girls on her floor, only three others were serious students. </p>
<p>A generalization, but there's no denying that the workload of places like Swat is some deterrent to partying! </p>
<p>And some of our kids don't drink. Doesn't mean we're in denial if we say so. My son lives in a house with drinkers, but he's too much of a health freak to join in. He does other stupid things!</p>
<p>BERURAH </p>
<p><strong>And yes, I am a REAL, imperfect parent of perfectly imperfect children, even if they don't abuse alcohol! ~berurah
p.s. My kids manage to do really stupid stuff sometimes while NOT under the influence lol</strong></p>
<p>I like your attitude - very honest and upfront - refreshing with eyes wide open!! TY</p>
<p>
[quote]
And some of our kids don't drink. Doesn't mean we're in denial if we say so. My son lives in a house with drinkers, but he's too much of a health freak to join in. He does other stupid things!
[/quote]
farawayplaces~
Yes, exactly. This would describe my son as well.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I like your attitude - very honest and upfront - refreshing with eyes wide open!! TY
[/quote]
JeepMOM~
Thanks sweetie. And that's exactly my point. I DO have my eyes open and I DON'T live under the mistaken notion that my kids are perfect. It's just that my son doesn't drink....at least yet. And I don't think it's necessarily a given that he will...he has always followed his own path. </p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>
[quote]
But Eddy's point was that Swarthmore is doing what got the Williams officials busted 10 years ago--and that was his concern. The liability the college incurs with this policy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Virtually all colleges face this liability, regardless of the policy. For example, I believe that UColorado "enforces" a "ban" on underage drinking and national fraternities "enforce" a "dry" policy. But, I don't think that will absolve either of them of liability in the frat-house death of Xiggi's friend last year. I think it is precisely the unrealistic nature of the drinking laws that lead most college administrators to disagree with the 21-year old drinking age. </p>
<p>Having said that, I think that broken town/gown relations events, such as the arrest of the Public Safety chief at Williams, more likely result from disruptive behavior than everyone suddenly wakingup one day and realizing that underage drinking occurs on campus. Here in Massachusetts, the push for stricter enforcement came as a result of visible incident -- the much publicized alcohol poisoning death at MIT. In many ways, the Williams town/gown friction was an extension of that.</p>
<p>Swarthmore is fortunate that they have a low incidence of these triggering events and disruption of the town. Part of it is that the binge drinking rate is just plain low by national standards. Part of it is a lucky geographic break. The town of Swarthmore is dry, so you don't have drunk students traipsing up and down main street to and from bars on a typical Saturday night. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, the chief of police would like to keep it that way. His problems would multiply if Swarthmore were to go back to the days of an enforced ban on alcohol. In the old days (pre-1960) when the campus was dry, Swarthmore parties all took place off campus. From what I can tell, the town and the college have a pretty good working relationship on the alcohol issue. The police presence on campus is just enough to keep the students on their toes and complaining from time to time, which is probably about where it should be.</p>
<p>My complaint with Swarthmore's alcohol policy is that they still have two fraternities. But, that's just me. I also think that's just a matter of time. They are down from seven to two and the two have struggled to attract membership in the last ten years.</p>
<p>I gotta say I don't think I have ever laughed harder while reading College Confidential than I have laughed reading this thread. ;)</p>
<p>Berurah, I also liked your PS comment about your kids. I got a kick out of it.</p>
<p>Anyway,
Marite never said that drinking does not go on at Harvard. She is not in denial. She merely expressed HER son's experience as a non drinker and having friends of that sort. Drinking was not part of his experience at Harvard. That does not mean Marite does not think that drinking is going on at campus (besides THE game). I think we all know drinking goes on at all campuses. But there ARE some kids who opt not to drink. Her son is one of them. Does that make him a "normal" teen? I think so. There are teens who drink and some who don't. </p>
<p>Is Marite son a "real adolescent" as Blossom put it? Yes, indeed he is. Is Marite credible just because she has a son who has chosen to not be a drinker? She is in my book. There are all sorts of kids and at all sorts of campuses. Just because LOTS of teens today do this sort of stuff, it does not make someone abnormal just because they don't. Not everyone goes with the crowd.</p>
<p>By the same token, those who have kids who do drink are raising some really good kids too. And they are "normal" too. And their parents are credible too! </p>
<p>Do I have to have a kid do something "stupid" to make me credible?? Gosh, I hope not. In high school, I feel 99.99999 % sure that D1 never had a drink. Gee, I hope she is normal and that I am credible. </p>
<p>By the same token, I have had my kids make mistakes like many adolescents do. D2 was in the wrong place at the wrong time one time already since she got to college. Has she learned from that? I hope so. She was not involved at all but being some place at the wrong time was not in her best interests. That is all I will say about it here but I am wondering if I am now more credible because I have a kid who made a mistake to allow herself to be near others who were doing something stupid? My gosh, I can join the crowd of those who have imperfect kids. I must be credible. But if I discuss my other kid who has never gotten into an ounce of trouble her entire life, I must have an abnormal kid and I must lack credibilitiy in discussing teen behavior today.</p>
<p>I think all these teens are normal, whether they drink or not. I don' think they are any more "normal" if they drink. I think that is a defense and trying to say "My kid is not so bad just cause he does not choose to abstain like your kid. He is a normal kid because he does some stupid things that many teens do today." No, your kid is not bad. Your kid is normal. But by the same token, a kid like Marite's is normal too. She, nor nobody else, said he was BETTER or more "good" or less "stupid". He just makes certain choices that work for him. Those kids who drink are pretty normal too and are not necessarily stupid. Nobody implied that they were or that kids who don't are holier than thou. But kids who don't drink are normal too (in my view). I hope you aren't consider abnormal if you don't go with the crowd.</p>
<p>Some of this is not which school you go to but which crowd of kids you associate with. Marite did not say there was no drinking at Harvard but simply said her son has not been part of a crowd or around those who do it. If that ain't credible I don't know what is. </p>
<p>You don't have to have a kid who has made some mistakes or who has gotten into some trouble or who has had a drink (add anything here) to have a "normal" kid. Yes, it may be more typical but there are kids who do not do any of those things and they are out there too. I guess we can call them abnormal if you like. But their parents are still credible. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>This conversation has been quite interesting; I am actually looking forward to discussing it with my daughter when she comes home for October break. </p>
<p>It is true (at least anecdotally, amongst her friends) that Swarthmore does attract kids to whom the Quaker values appeal. She is a non-drinker, and was looking for a college that seemed to have less of the typical college drinking activity. She hasn't been disappointed so far. She is having tons of fun with her primarily non-drinking friends, and feels absolutely no pressure or censure. When I asked her about the level of drinking, she said that "a couple of guys at the end of the hall" reportedly drank a lot, but she hadn't seen any evidence of it. She would, however, generally steer clear of the mad crush of a large party--it just doesn't appeal to her, sober or not. And she seems to have plenty of options. </p>
<p>Is it all perfect? No--I often warned her that despite how perfect Swat sounded for her, she was sure to find a*****ish behavior there, and she has---but not as much as there was in HS. And she definitely has found more kindred spirits there. She probably agrees with Arthur Chu to an extent, becuse I know she hated the hypocrisy exhibited by her HS, the students and especially some of the parents. But at the end of the day, she can only control her own behavior--and of course, choose who to hang around with. </p>
<p>Blossom, I know she has done some embarrassing things in her life (what "geek" hasn't?), but never while inebriated, and she probably never will. Sorry, but neither have I, and I do consider myself to have been a typical adolescent--seriously. My college, in the late 70's did not act "in loco parentis", and seemed to have more or less the same type of policies that Swarthmore does. I managed to learn to drink moderately and responsibly partially because of the freedom we were given--but primarily because of the example set by my own parents. I think that when and if she chooses to drink, it will be in the same way.
Yes, I know that it doesn't always follow--but I do think that plenty of kids at Swat have consciously chosen a school without a big Greek scene, without a typical "party" reputation, without "the big game" mentality. </p>
<p>As I said, I'm looking forward to hearing more of the story when she comes home--we just IM'ed briefly about the table incident, so I know she's aware of it, but work beckons, and the "big hunt" is tomorrow night, so it can wait!</p>
<p>Soozie:</p>
<p>Many thanks. I actually wished my kids were more amenable to drinking a glass of wine so we could open a bottle now and then. Most of the time, when we do, half the bottle goes down the drain. Sigh...
S1, when in college, was always the designated driver because he did not drink.</p>
<p>S isn't even in college yet, and I could report on a lot of stories from his previous boarding school. I was actually the parent who was trying to tell the school some of the things that were going on! The kids were keeping vodka in Propel water bottles in the dorm rooms, for one thing. Some things very similar to the incidents leading to the Swat citations as reported by interesteddad occurred with students at this boarding school (not the current one S attends). One kid came back to campus after a party so drunk that he had to be taken to the hospital- I should point out that he is now a soph at Swarthmore.<br>
At S's current school the kids seem to be smart enough not not break the strict rules against alcohol etc.- but I don't think for a minute that there is no drinking when they all go into NYC on weekends!<br>
Blossom, I, too, would like to PM you.</p>
<p>I personally think this is a problem for Swarthmore students and administration, alumni (and possibly Swarthmore parents) to resolve. Interesteddad Pm'ed me with more information about this and other personalities on campus. I think he is worried about it too and worried about his daughter as well. But this does not belong here....as well as the slings and arrows..</p>
<p>Swat is not immune from any of the problems that other schools face - in any way - shape - or form - and all parents of college students should be worried about their kids - tho there is little we can really do at times - with them being out from under our protective wings.</p>
<p>Students will make their choices as they will - and schools will make their choices as they will - as to how to manage/control/minimize the alcohol intake on or around campus.</p>
<p>It sure would be interesting to know what the alcohol sales are like around Swat - or any school for that matter - when school is in/out of session- as this would certainly tell a story of the alcohol consumption habits on the campus involved .</p>