@Pizzagirl As part of the whole discussion about “dolling up”…I’ll bet I can ask you this, then.
Does one go to fraternity/sorority parties with “shoes that cut”, or something easier to walk in?
@Cardinal Fang
Getting women is a byproduct of throwing good parties. I don’t know any fraternity that sets out with the goal to get girls for the night. We’re not animals
Obligation Sex is the most ridiculous term I’ve ever heard. It’s used by women and men who feel guilty about what they did the night before. These women have every right to leave. They are choosing to stay. The men aren’t doing anything wrong.
@TransferGopher
Stop lying to yourself.
Read the article. It’s clear you didn’t. Because I would hope that no human would have the audacity to brush someone off like that when they are saying the felt as though they had no choice. Obviously if she felt as though she had no choice, leaving was not an option. If you don’t want to read the whole thing, at least go to section 2, subsection 2.
@TransferGopher And goodness, at least pretend to be objective. Based on your previous posts threads, you’re currently in a fraternity and you to seem have problems with people who address sexual assault in Greek Life. If you’ve got such a problem with it, tell your boys and the neighboring fraternities to stop assaulting women. It’s that simple.
“They shouldn’t feel that way, therefore they didn’t feel that way” – is that the claim here, @TransferGopher? It’s not a persuasive one.
The distinction between “we’re throwing parties and we hope some great girls show up so we can dance, get to know them, etc” and “we’re throwing parties because our goal is to get every brother laid tonight, we don’t need to know their names and we won’t call them tomorrow” is COMPLETELY lost on some of you.
Years ago, I was at a frat party dancing with a guy who later became a well known actor. We were flirting like mad. I’m quite sure that if I had chosen to, I could have “escalated” it to a higher level physically. I chose not to. If I had - and regretted it later - that would be on me. I am really tired of the lack of distinction between a forcible assault situation (I said no and he held me down)and simple regret of a consensual act in the morning light. And complete bs that someone felt “obligated.” No. That’s not how grown up relationships work. If you repeatedly find yourself regretting one night stands, then don’t engage in one night stands.
“For fraternities, “obligate sex” is a success. Fraternities should want to encourage “obligate sex,” because it achieves their goal of having their members have sex.”
This may be hard for those of you who have reduced men to just their genitals to believe, but there are nice young men who desire relationships with girls they like that then naturally lead to consensual physical activity. Not all guys are pigs who just want to get their rocks off with the nearest female.
“Pizzagirl As part of the whole discussion about “dolling up”…I’ll bet I can ask you this, then.
Does one go to fraternity/sorority parties with “shoes that cut”, or something easier to walk in?”
I have no idea what you are talking about here. How would I know what “women” do, as though they are some uniform group who all do the same thing? Wouldn’t it depend on the weather/climate, whether the situation demanded a lot of walking, and the person’s own tastes and preferences - just like anything else?
TransferGopher,
I appreciate you sharing your perspective.
PG,
You are a saint to soldier on, having to explain how basic human relationships work. Sometimes I wonder whether some posters have lives involving humans, outside of their cyber worlds.
No, you’re right. Best as I can figure, it’s somewhere in the neighborhood of 90%, not adjusting for sexual orientation.
Speak for yourself.
Were the husbands of the female posters on here like that when they were younger? Are their sons like that now?
The party scene paper was interesting, yet hard to know how their conclusions may be applicable beyond the party floor and high level frats at this (or very similar) large, mid-western frat-dominated colleges. They did not seem to look at other frats or women not as invested in the scene. The paper suggests that sexual assault or anonymous and degrading treatment of women is widespread at frats that are dominated by white guys. As PG said (and others have said elsewhere), there are many frats where this is not true and where the guys are actually good guys.
The paper’s conclusion shows how difficult it is to make things change. They discuss education, but really find that most of the women enjoy these parties, have a great time, and have consensual sex or don’t participate. It is not clear whether the girls are not let into parties if they previously did not cooperate sexually with the the frat men.
This conclusion is what I what I was saying in the other thread. If the women do not want the scene to change, there is little incentive for the men to change the structure of the parties. However, education can hopefully make men understand how they can have parties with alcohol, dancing, and fun that does not lead to sexual assault.
You know, Pizzagirl, as a man, I’ve had some experience over the years observing and interacting with other men, and I’m going to have to reiterate the same thing I already said.
Speaking in general terms about the husbands and sons you mentioned the answers are “yes” and “yes”, but I’m sure yours are different.
What I thought was interesting about the paper was how they described how “misfits” didn’t participate in this social scene. I’m willing to bet the people who these girls characterized as “misfits” went and did their own thing on Saturday night, had fun with their own crowd doing whatever, and didn’t for one moment worry that these girls thought of them as “misfits.” I cannot stand people who do not have the courage of their own convictions or who worry excessively about what other people - who they don’t respect! - might think. I don’t know, I didn’t attend a lot of frat parties, it’s not my style, I went and did “quiet” activities with my boyfriend or with my girlfriends, and if other people thought I was a “misfit” because I wasn’t partying til dawn at the hottest fraternity on campus – well, that would fall under pretty much their problem, not mine. These girls seemed just very superficial and desperate, and so, oh well, when you define your life by “what will the hawt guys think” and make moves with that objective in mind, you’re going to have to take the consequences.
I mean, spare me the sanctimony over “oh, I couldn’t possibly be caught in the ‘wrong’ fraternity house, I’d lose my social standing.” No, honey, when you think like that, you’re already a loser. People of substance and character know that it’s not of critical importance that your boyfriend is a Sigma Chi.
Indiana University has an extremely competitive Greek system. I don’t think it’s comparable to other places. I can’t speak to how comparable it is to USC (though USC is competitive in its own right) - but I knew two women who were both members of sororities at USC (one graduated last year, the other a few years ago) and both are smart, confident, professional women who don’t see it as their life’s mission to attract men and who wouldn’t stand for anyone pressuring them into stuff they didn’t want to do.
Pizzagirl wrote:
JustOneDad responded;
Not all men on this thread are like that. None of the men close to me in real life are like that. Assuming this is the norm is the mindset some of us are trying to change. When it is the norm within a group, the behavior becomes acceptable, if not encouraged. This is what I think sometimes happens in fraternities.
“Speaking in general terms about the husbands and sons you mentioned the answers are “yes” and “yes”, but I’m sure yours are different.”
Yes, I get that 20 year old college guys want to get lucky on a Saturday night. Understood. That is different from saying that therefore any girl in their immediate vicinity will do or that their Saturday night is a contest with their buds to see who can get laid first.
Are you having a hard time distinguishing the difference between 90% and “all”? This is what I think sometimes happens in people’s minds and is possibly related to lower scores on CR sections and similar.
Yes, but remember I’m not an Ivy grad so I count for nothing on CC 
I secretly am a burger-flipper, when I’m not making milkshakes, that is!