The Price of Sex at USC

alh - AIDS wasn’t really affecting college students during my years. But I do get the impression that there was more casual sex 5-10 years before I was in college than when I attended.

CF - I don’t want to get carried away with the beat up thing, but I think you get the idea. Saying that the only way you could have sex with a woman is by drugging her to near the point of incapacitation with alcohol makes a guy look pathetic and like a rapist. But the thing with social mores is that no one would describe it in those terms even if that’s what happened because of that. People may not have been as protective of “other women”, but it’s not like that means “you can rape” them. He’d just lie and say she was really drunk and she couldn’t keep her hands off of him. But I guess if someone said something like you wrote he wouldn’t get beaten up but he might get ostracized or worse depending on exactly what was said. Hard to imagine - nobody went around saying “I had sex with her mostly unconscious body, ha ha ha”. They’d be a sociopath. In that sense TransferGopher is right.

Here’s another article about party rape at “Midwestern University” (which has got to be Indiana):

http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/2/0/6/0/pages20600/p20600-1.php

It’s the same authors, Armstrong, Hamilton & Sweeney, and the same research project. But this article specifically talks about rape, and in particular rape at fraternity houses. The authors talk about their experience living with the freshman women at the “party dorm,” but they also had numerous interviews with male students.

Their description of the fraternity party scene, from both the male and the female perspective, contradicts everything @TransferGopher says.

Eventually, the young women on this dorm floor learn how not to get raped. They come to feel that being sophisticated, adult and socially savvy means you know how not to get raped, and only naive, childish young women (like their first-semester freshman selves!) get raped. Both those who were assaulted and those who were not assaulted blame their assaults on their childish lack of social knowledge; now, they think, they are adults who are smart enough to avoid assault.

The young women who go to the fraternity parties like to go to them. It makes them feel sexy and adult.

It’s a mystery to me why anyone but the fraternities support a system where young women newly at college have to learn how not to get sexually assaulted by being assaulted or having their friends assaulted.

“Let’s say you have a very attractive girl, everyone agrees about that. If she is constantly “hooking up” with a different guy all the time, does that add or subtract to her status? Likewise for a guy - really attractive guy. If he is well known for just one night stands and nothing else, how does that affect his status?”

This is all so silly - don’t different people have different definitions of “what’s cool”? Some guys are going to think the girl who puts out for anyone is the girl of their dreams. And other guys are going to be repulsed by that kind of girl, not want to touch her with a 10-foot pole, and want at least some level of a relationship before intimacy. And of course the same goes for how girls think about guys.

The “let’s all go to the frat party and get WASTED, yay!” is completely unappealing to me and I don’t think highly of girls who are like that.

"al2simon, you and your friends would beat up someone who raped one of your female friends. But what was the attitude to the other women, the ones who were not your friends? How would you have felt if one of your male friends bragged that he had plied a woman you didn’t know with alcohol until she could barely walk, then led/dragged her to their room and had intercourse with her? "

Oh good grief, CF! Could you possibly BE any more insulting? Of course he and his buddies would be disgusted with the guy. DUH. What do you think he’s going to say - they’d all give the guy high-fives?

You really don’t believe that any guy is a “good guy,” do you?

“Their description of the fraternity party scene, from both the male and the female perspective, contradicts everything @TransferGopher says.”

Here’s a concept. Minnesota is not Indiana. And in any case, there are plenty of “good guys” in the Greek system at Indiana.

But what would people who are actually in a system know about it? Nothing, apparently. Only those of you who longingly observed from afar at girls who actually look pretty and have typical social interactions with others really know what’s up.

“Eventually, the young women on this dorm floor learn how not to get raped. They come to feel that being sophisticated, adult and socially savvy means you know how not to get raped, and only naive, childish young women (like their first-semester freshman selves!) get raped.”

Ding ding ding ding!!

This is exactly why people who care about this issue (I’m talking to you feminist advocates!!) really need to button it when it comes to the obsessive monitoring and knee jerk reactions about “Slut shaming!!”, “Victim blaming!!” and “Good/bad victims!!” I really think that is just so ineffective trending towards counter-productive.

Let’s all try to reform men and American parenting and college culture and frat culture and popular culture and police departments and courts and college tribunals and OCR and campus drinking culture. That shouldn’t be too hard, should it?

But while we are waiting, I’m drilling a couple of simple rules into my college daughters’ heads. If they abide by those rules (even if only during for their first three college months) they pretty much have a vaccine against campus rape:

  1. No hard alcohol.
  2. No more than one beer/wine per hour.
  3. Always have a buddy.
  4. If you are messed with, scream as loud as you can and break/throw things (assuming the dude has no weapon).

It isn’t victim-blaming to make your kid wear a seatbelt for god’s sake.

@Northwesty And you don’t think that it is absolutely repulsive that women must learn to **not ** get raped? You’re actually okay with living in a society like that?

In the presented scenario, that IS victim blaming. “Well, you didn’t learn how to not get raped. That’s on you!”

Seatbelts are a horrible analogy and it’s absolutely reprehensible that you would even compare teaching a child to wear a seatbelt to girls learning how to not get raped.

It’s not as though you can teach cars how to not hit you in the same way that you can teach a male how to not rape or coerce a girl into having sex.

Wow that’s sad. That’s actually scary.

If I, a 50 year old woman, were to be single tomorrow, I wouldn’t go cruising at bars and go home with the first guy I saw. If I were to meet someone through match.com (etc.), I’d meet them in a public place and wait a few dates to get to know them before I accepted an invitation up to their apartment. I don’t see what’s so objectionable about suggesting that young people follow similar general safe principles. I have no moral objection to one night stands, but I think pursuing them does lead to more dangerous situations than not doing so.

Temper, temper, Pizzagirl. And it’s “schlub,” not “schleb.”

Well, speaking as the king of the schlubs, I resent resemble that remark :slight_smile:

@TransferGopher‌
You are speaking as though rape never actually occurs and that it is beyond the realm of possibility for someone to do it and then brag about it. Have you ever heard of Steubenville, Ohio?

With the statistics on student rape and sexual assaults, the problem is we don’t have good numbers, for a variety of reasons, much as we don’t on rape. For one thing, rape and sexual assault, despite all the work that has been done to help the victims not feel like it is shameful, that they did nothing wong, a lot of victims refuse to come forward to this day, they feel dirty, and don’t want people to know, plus many of them might feel afraid of the consequences of coming forward, like the perp and/or his friends making life miserable. You think if a girl reports a case of sexual assault or rape against a member of a frat his brothers won’t go on the warpath against the girl, spreading ‘the truth’ that she was fully consenting, and was doing this because the brother who did it dumped her, etc…I went to NYU, which in the early 80’s didn’t exactly have a huge Greek culture, but I was involved as head of a large student activities group with a disciplinary board, and I saw this happen more than a few times, where a victim was brave enough to report sexual assault and the brothers went into full on shaming mode…against the girl.

So we don’t know the stats, but I would bet good money that they are significantly larger than the reported facts…not to mention that it is only recently that schools now have to report such incidents, the campus police and the administration can’t ‘make it go away’ as easily as they once did (just take a look at Florida State with their football players to see how much the cover up still goes on, albeit with things beyond sexual assault), so over time I expect we will see better stats, since the schools can get in serious trouble if they are found to be covering up. Also, they are finally making it easier for victims to report, not just outright rape, but where they were drunk were out of it and had sex, they are making it more anonymous and safe to report, plus administrations are afraid enough of lawsuits like the Catholic Church has faced and continues to face if there is any inkling they didn’t do what they should have.

I also saw fraternities pretty close up, I wasn’t a member of any of the houses, but had contact with its members (I used to be a ref for the intramural sports programs), and saw what went on. Most of the guys were decent, and to be honest I don’t think that for many of them the parties were chances to get laid (then again, this was a large school, in NYC, with a lot of young women around the city, where you didn’t need to go to a frat party to try and find a girl), but there was very much a rule of ‘what goes on here, stays here’, and the problem was that small minority who would behave atrociously was covered by that. Again, it is much like the Catholic Church and its culture, where there are a lot of good, decent people trying to do God’s work, but there also was and is a culture that protecting the church (and its leaders) of utmost important, and it allowed the abuse scandal to play out over decades. With frats, most of the guys would find it sickening that a guy would need to get a girl drunk to have sex with her, but also would not report him or give him a good swift kick in the a** or the door if he got out of line, the whole ‘frat brother uber alles’ is no myth, it is the truth in many places.

I also don’t think that the frats have parties directly tied to getting laid, I think they have the parties and unconsciously there is the expectation of getting laid, and that is a problem. Something that is an automatic or unconscious expectation is not thought about, what happens is the guy is at a party, having a good time, he sees a girl he finds attractive, talks to her, is drinking with her, then finds himself taking her someplace and ends up going over the line, not because he is thinking “gee, I am going to have sex with her”, but unconsciously, he is feeling “I have a right to have sex with her”…and I think if there is going to be a solution that at the frats, that unconcious feeling of ‘right to have sex’ needs to be examined, I think a lot of it has to be in drilling home that the party is to have fun and that there are lines that cannot be gone over…but somehow, I don’t think it will work, unless the frats acknowledge that there is a problem.

I never knew that sororities were still run like that, it sounds like an all female dorm from the 1950s or something. Frats are a major part of the social life at many schools, and it is kind of idiotic that sororities are run as if this is 1955 or something, I think there is validity to the idea that if sorrorities ran their own parties and didn’t treat life like their job was to deliver their members to the altar as virgins or something, it might work out better. There is an old expression in street fighting, it says never fight a battle on someone else’s turf, because you are likely to get a board split across your head by your opponents ‘friends’…if sororities had parties, they would be in control, and the boys who attended would know that they wouldn’t get away with the crap they would at their own houses…and more importantly, I suspect that if a sorrority threw parties, that a lot of girls from outside the greeks would rather go there than a frat, which would in turn I suspect force the frats to compete. As the guy points out, on many campuses the frats are an oligopoly, huge parts of the social life around campus, if not almost the only one, and without competition why would they want to change? Competition is a good thing, as when Robert Morgenthau, the DA, broke the monopoly the mob had on garbage collection in NYC, he brought in Browning/Ferris industries (now WMX), that was known, shall we say , for less than stellar behavior themselves, and the mob was soon out of business, they couldn’t shake down Browning Ferris and their muscle found out there were people tougher than them. To be honest, when I was in college I would have rather gone to a sorrority house for a party, would rather be at a place run by the women there, probably a lot less obnoxious drunks:)

“It’s not as though you can teach cars how to not hit you in the same way that you can teach a male how to not rape or coerce a girl into having sex.”

Nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense.

We have drivers ed. We have driver license requirements. We have cops out on patrol looking for unsafe drivers. We have speed limits and laws against drunk driving. We punish people who break those laws with tickets, license suspensions and jail time in some cases. And we still have lots of bad drivers and car crashes.

But we still insist that our kids wear seatbelts. I insisit my college age daughters follow those 4 rules. I’d be negligent as a father if I didn’t do that and instead relied on the OCR to keep my daughters safe.

Cali – if my girls do those 4 things, what level of risk reduction will they enjoy? 90%? 99%? What do you think the level of risk reduction has been achieved through the whole OCR policy?

“You are speaking as though rape never actually occurs and that it is beyond the realm of possibility for someone to do it and then brag about it. Have you ever heard of Steubenville, Ohio?”

Of course rape occurs. That doesn’t mean that TransferGopher needs to flog himself and his friends / buddies as being potential rapists when they aren’t. Any more than I need to avow that I’m not a murderer even though murders occur.

I have a question. I was almost raped. That is, I was very very drunk, I let a guy walk me home (very nice of him to offer), and he pushed his way into my dorm room, and took off part of my clothes while he was forcibly kissing me (the first time he tried all evening, we never spoke about anything remotely sexual or romantic; I have brothers, he was a nice guy as far as I could tell). I guess that is assault, taking someone’s clothes off while kissing them without permission? Would the police think so, even if it would be according to the law (“pantsing” has even been deemed illegal, without any physical contact other than removing the clothes).

Part of the reason I would have reported it if I was raped because I would want to have a) proof of identity and b) some reason not to kill or castrate him.

So we both were lucky, that night, and what I did in response was pretty close to the list above:

  • don’t go out to a frat party alone (he was NOT a frat brother, he was a hanger-on for this particular frat by the way)
  • don’t drink too fast, it takes time to get drunk and it is more likely you will get very very drunk if you drink quickly
  • make sure you eat while you are drinking, less likely to get drunker
  • never ever open your dorm room door when someone you don’t know well offers to walk you home

There are a few populations of rape victims, not limited to:

  • wrong place, wrong time, doesn’t matter at all who
  • drunk or drugged, by their own volition or not, could not decide on their own
  • made a mistake in a romantic relationship, said “no” but was not taken seriously by partner

I can say honestly that I was trying to avoid the first type of victim, the one that includes a very drunk girl walking home alone on a dark campus, and almost ended up being the second type of victim. I have never been in the third situation, luckily.

In the first case, everyone can agree that a woman should not go walking around at night alone, can’t they? Most guys agree they shouldn’t do that either, easy to get mugged.

In the second case, I think we can agree that this is considered rape by most if not all states.

If I need to tell my daughter to:

  • not go out alone at night, even just on campus
  • not let anyone into her dorm room who she doesn’t know (tricky, because on my freshmen floor, everybody had their dorm room doors open most of the time, until they went to sleep
  • be very very careful with her first experiences with drinking

I know that both almost being raped and also almost dying from alcohol poisoning (I actually believe I was much luckier not to die from alcohol poisoning as compared to the luck for not getting raped) could have been avoided by following those three things. Which I followed carefully after my negative experience.

Can’t we both not blame the victim and also acknowledge that risky behaviors carry risk, and that avoiding risky behaviors can decrease risk? Like requiring prostitutes to use condoms? Or telling your sons to refer to cops politely and use “No, sir” and “Yes, sir”?

Musicparent, let’s suppose that you were the national chapter president for Kappa Kappa Cutie and you are charged with setting whatever standards and regulations to ensure the well-being and safety of the thousands of young women who are in your 100+ chapters nationwide. You know that in every state in the country, the drinking age is 21 and the majority of young women in your houses are < 21. You also know that a lot of them like to drink and will find ways to do it. You consider yourself under somewhat of a moral obligation to promote wellness programs among your young women, to encourage philanthropy and scholarship and looking out for one another and all kinds of good things. You also recognize that you can’t put chastity belts on these women, either.

Do you a) tell your chapters “hey, go ahead and serve alcohol, what the heck, the guys are, so you might as well” or b) tell your chapters “we recognize that we can’t monitor all the moves you make, but we are not going to sanction you guys serving alcohol and breaking the rules of both your college and the state”?

Here’s a clue: Do you sanction your under 21 kids serving alcohol to their under 21 friends in your home? Why or why not? Same thing, really.

And no, I don’t know why the national frat leadership doesn’t come down harder on this, but it’s irrelevant to what the national sorority leadership does.

If out of 50 freshman women, many but not all of whom go to frat parties, one gets raped, one gets assaulted, and one gets drugged with a date rape drug, that’s a lot of assaults at frat parties.

Let’s not be dissin the Kappa Kappas Pizza :slight_smile:

but in general I agree with your posts…

@Northwesty I’m not advocating against street smarts. But no matter what you learn in drivers ed, if someone chooses to drink and drive, if someone chooses to run that red light, if someone CHOOSES to break the law and you are a victim of their crime, that is NOT you fault.

You’re looking at it the wrong way. In the same way we have drivers ed to teach people how to not break the law, we should teach men to not break the law and rape.

@CaliCash‌

You have no idea. You aren’t in a fraternity. There is no way for you to comment on it.

The sexual assault we had that related to greek life was 4 or 5 years ago. After that we had huge changes to just about everything policy wise.

Lastly, don’t rush. You’re obviously against greek life. You wouldn’t fit in.