<p>
You read a lot into the statement and I don’t think you can take one person’s opinion to be gospel. I think their only point is the school has a lot of socially active students. If you were a shy intellectual then I’m sure you could still thrive at Yale just as you could at any other university.</p>
<p>
I would think you could say that about any school.</p>
<p>What an awful tour guide – so sorry! When my kids were touring colleges so much of whether they liked a school (or not) depended on the tour guide. The school with the best tour guide – at least with my kids – became the one they were most interested in. It’s so hard to look beyond that, no matter what college. </p>
<p>Yale is a mid-size school with about 5,000 undergraduates. My son, a rising sophomore, had a fabulous first year. Socially, he had a wonderful time and met many good friends that I hope remain a part of his life for many years. He took eight classes (all of which he loved) and personally got to know two of his professors. Six of his classes were large, and the professors did not have the opportunity to engage one-on-one with students. </p>
<p>“isn’t there a place for, say, a quiet intellectual scholarly type who perhaps loves brain research and does not need to be center of attention?”</p>
<p>Yes, there is such a place – it’s called a smaller school! My son, who was also accepted to Pomona, would have had an entirely different experience there because of its intimate size. With 1400 students, Pomona is one-quarter the size of Yale and is able to give personal attention to every student because all classes have less than 20 students. Yale isn’t that kind of place. Possibly that is what the tour guide was referring to when s/he mentioned “shy Students”, but who knows.</p>
<p>“in fact, most leaders in academia, business, industry, the arts, etc did not attend Yale.”</p>
<p>I agree. Given what you have written, I know you will enjoy this article: [The</a> American Scholar: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - William Deresiewicz](<a href=“http://theamericanscholar.org/the-disadvantages-of-an-elite-education/]The”>The American Scholar: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - <a href='https://theamericanscholar.org/author/william-deresiewicz/'>William Deresiewicz</a>)</p>
<p>JamesJude says: “When examined closely, what does Yale offer over other schools? A prestigious name.”</p>
<p>Word of advice to JJ: This is probably not your best answer to the “Why Yale?” essay prompt. ; )</p>
<p>Seriously though: I think the most successful applicants to Yale are able to supply multiple and sincere answers to the question, “What does Yale offer over other schools?” Indeed, I would argue that all applicants should be asking themselves this question about every school on their lists: What does this place offer that makes it right FOR ME? If you can’t come up with a specific and truthful response, you shouldn’t be applying to the school in question.</p>
<p>There are many students who make their application list based on rankings and prestige. And there are many who don’t. I venture to say that there are students at Yale who chose it because it was YALE. But also, many who chose it because it offered programs, options, resources, etc., that were perfect for their interests and dreams.</p>
<p>Gibbby: Your answer is spot on. My daughter is also a rising sophomore at Yale; I went to Swarthmore. Her experience is different from mine; I can point to advantages, and disadvantages of Yale vs. Swat. There is no “best” school even for a particular type of kid. Just take advantage of whatever that school has to offer.</p>
<p>Thank you gibby and donnaleighg for sharing your son and daughter’s experience. Thank you also, gibby, for posting this link to an article on an insider’s interesting perspective on potential drawbacks of a Yale/elite college education: </p>
<p>[The</a> American Scholar: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - William Deresiewicz](<a href=“http://theamericanscholar.org/the-disadvantages-of-an-elite-education/]The”>The American Scholar: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - <a href='https://theamericanscholar.org/author/william-deresiewicz/'>William Deresiewicz</a>)</p>
<p>OP, I recommend reading the above-cited work – the piece presents (far more eloquently than I did) some of the same issues (elitism, sense of entitlement, lack of diversity) I observed during my brief visit to Yale.</p>
<p>Please, folks, let’s stick to the question posed by Youdon’tsay:</p>
<p>Quick! Tell me something that you don’t like about the school so as to nip this crush right in the bud before I have ds apply!</p>
<p>I am not seeking advice on the best school for me, just presenting some of my personal observations gleaned from my visit to Yale and from Yale’s admissions webpage. I am not looking for a small liberal arts school; as I said above, I am not shy by anyone’s standards, and am only looking at schools with a minimum of 5,000 undergrads. My point in bringing up our tour guide’s comment was to point out that I personally find value in time spent with a variety of people, including quiet(er) scholarly types, and I found Yale to be lacking in this regard.</p>
<p>For those of you who don’t have time to read the whole article written by a long-time Yale professor, here are some relevant excerpts:</p>
<p>"… the last thing an elite education will teach you is its own inadequacy. As two dozen years at Yale and Columbia have shown me, elite colleges relentlessly encourage their students to flatter themselves for being there, and for what being there can do for them … To consider that while some opportunities are being created, others are being cancelled and that while some abilities are being developed, others are being crippled is, within this context, not only outrageous, but inconceivable.</p>
<p>I thought this was a great response to William’s article by a student at Princeton.</p>
<p>[Willa’s</a> World: Why Ivy League Grads Aren’t All Pretentious Douchebags](<a href=“http://www.willa.me/2012/07/why-ivy-league-grads-arent-all.html?m=1]Willa’s”>http://www.willa.me/2012/07/why-ivy-league-grads-arent-all.html?m=1)</p>
<p>That was a great response (and it’s also why my kid is attending Yale)! Thanks Kdog.</p>
<p>Yes, that was a very sweet, creative response by Willa.</p>
<p>To Ms. Youdon’tsay, good luck to your son in his search for a school where he’ll be happy. I personally find there often is beauty, intelligence and value in the ordinary, as well as the extraordinary, and I would hope any school that charges itself with molding future leaders would recognize such.</p>
<p>Thanks, JJ. Good luck to you as well.</p>
<p>Actually, one of the best things about Yale is the way the residential college system manages to integrate some of the great aspects of a small LAC with the advantages of a major research university. So students live in the same community all four years, by the end of which they feel really comfortable with their classmates, and have an easy time meeting upperclassmen (when they are freshmen) and younger students (when they are upperclassmen), even if they don’t share classes or other interests with them.</p>
<p>But more importantly, the academic advising system works through the colleges, so there is a lot of continuity in advising, you run into your advisor socially on a regular basis, and it is virtually impossible to slip between the cracks. After I graduated from Yale, and saw how some other elite colleges worked, the thing I was most often shocked at was how bad their academic advising systems were compared to Yale.</p>
<p>Also, at Yale the advisors are full faculty for the most part. I had three advisors during my time at Yale. One was a University chaplain, one was the most famous scholar in his field in the world, and the last – who was the person who advised all of the people in my college in my major, all three of us – was a full professor of Classics, who after he retired from Yale became a fellow at the Institute for Advanced Studies at Princeton. My wife’s major advisor was a future Ivy League president.</p>
<p>The “seamy underbelly” of Yale is one thing, and one thing only: New Haven. Which is not nearly so seamy as people imagine, but there’s no way to make it a plus, especially compared to pretty much anywhere any of its peers is located, except maybe Hanover or Durham (and we could debate Ithaca).</p>
<p>JamesJude: It’s clear that you are an intelligent, thoughtful person, apparently interested in the sciences. The vibe I get from your posts tells me that you will be a serious candidate wherever you apply, and that you will probably wind up making a choice among basically equivalent universities. You can make that choice any way you like, and it will come out fine. </p>
<p>But you really don’t know what you are talking about, starting with not really understanding what happens at universisties. And your scientific bent ought to tell you that it’s a huge mistake to draw broad conclusions from really limited, randomly acquired data. Reactions like yours are why I am generally sort of opposed to college visiting – it produces a bunch of really vivid, but essentially random information, and invites you to draw conclusions from that. You are also overinterpreting, massively, a few lines of marketing-speak on the admissions website. If you spent more than a few hours at Yale (or anywhere like it), you would know that there are plenty of quiet scholars there, and they are valued.</p>
<p>Not that you were wrong in noticing a sense of elitism and entitlement at Yale – I am sure that’s there – but I don’t know on what basis you are comparing Yale elitism/entitlement to the elitism/entitlement level at any of its peers. You CAN get a somewhat different mix of elitism and entitlement at a different sort of college altogether, but there are other trade-offs as well.</p>
<p>
Are you sure you aren’t confusing Yale with some other school (perhaps that fill-in-the-blank test confused you). </p>
<p>As for Deresiwicz’ article, I think it’s nonsensical sour grapes from a guy who didn’t get tenure. It’s been discussed on CC numerous times, and some people (who haven’t been to Yale) take it as gospel, while people who actually know something about Yale think it’s ridiculous.</p>
<p>I finally got to read Willa’s writing and had to laugh by the use of the word “d-bag.” Ds1 once called ds2 one, so I’m beginning to think Yale may, in fact, be the perfect place for him. ;)</p>
<p>Trivially true that Yale is a great school. I’d love my qualified HS son to go there. But as a townie it’s obvious to me that when the school thinks of New Haven–when it thinks of it at all–it’s with a mixed metaphor of Mrs. Bountiful and noblesse oblige. </p>
<p>Today, I was driving north on High Street with my son, and when we got to Elm I told him that twenty years ago you could just keep on driving, that is, until the idiotic mayor sold the street to Yale for the equivalent of alms to the poor. </p>
<p>Many locals share the belief that Yale be taxed rather that relying on their good will offerings. One reason that New Haven struggles financially is because in a previous era there was a strong industrial base. Yale was only a piece of the economic pie. But today it and the hospital dominate–two non-profits that can’t be taxed.</p>
<p>latchiver,</p>
<p>You’re right that Yale should have to pay taxes, that the university and most of its students attitudes toward the city are unjustifiably terrible, and that Yale has far too much control over the city’s well-being. But couldn’t you have found a better example that the closure of one block of High Street? New Havenites aren’t really harmed at all by not being able to drive on that block (you can simply use College or York instead), while Yale receives a great deal of benefit in terms of the safety and convenience of its students. That Yale paid for that benefit only increases the net positive from the decision.</p>
<p>There are real problems in town/gown relations at Yale, but it trivializes them to write about the existence of a pedestrian street as an example of them. Try, say, the Yale police department, whose sole purpose is to protect Yalies from the city, while protecting them from ever suffering any consequences for their own actions. Or the way that Yale’s property management company ensures that large parts of downtown New Haven real estate are devoted solely to stores that serve the needs of wealthy Yale students rather than the broader New Haven community.</p>
<p>All that said, though, Yale is still a major positive for New Haven, and that’s also worth remembering. New Havenites get many of the amenities that most cities of a similar size and wealth level don’t have simply because of Yale’s presence. And though I agree that Yale really should be subject to property taxes, it’s not like New Haven would be doing better if Yale were somewhere else. </p>
<p>Finally, I want to disagree with JHS that New Haven drags Yale down. If we limit ourselves to the Ivy League, for the purposes of being a college student (and assuming that one isn’t super-wealthy, which is admittedly not a fair assumption for a lot of Yalies), I’d take New Haven over Hanover, Ithaca, Princeton, and Manhattan (New York’s exciting, but normal college students can’t possibly afford to take advantage of Columbia’s location), and say it’s competitive with Providence and Philadelphia. Only Cambridge really has a clear edge as a college town.</p>
<p>Svalbardlutefisk,</p>
<p>I agree with everything you said. I point to High Street as symptomatic not as the crux of the matter. And there is nuance. Some of the city officials involved with the reexamination of the High Street agreement as also are also Yale employees, which goes to show how complex is the relationship. Look at the comments to this Yale Daily News article. The attitude is that any money disbursed is more than New Haven deserves. Missing is the recognition that a vibrant, prosperous, and safe New Haven is in Yale’s interest. </p>
<p>[Town</a> and gown dispute closed streets | Yale Daily News](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2011/may/04/town-and-gown-dispute-closed-streets/]Town”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2011/may/04/town-and-gown-dispute-closed-streets/)</p>
<p>My family and I have a love-hate relationship with Yale.(My older son lined the term “Yaliens” to describe the Elis.) My kids have benefitted from programs at the school; they will recieve Promise Scholarships for New Haven public school students attending Connecticut colleges; and my younger son sang the national anthem at the Yale-Harvard basketball game. We also like the museums, the Philharmonia, and the restaurants sustained by Yale consumers (although our fave, Modern, would exist without Yale). I also won’t be surprised if my younger son–given his credentials–were accepted to Yale–which would mean my writing checks to them. I’ll even admit there’s an unwritten policy of accepting a few top New Haven students annually (although my son recognizes that Harvard has a superior math department, and my wife and I are lobbying for our respective alma maters-Williams and Chicago).</p>
<p>That said, not taxing these kinds of nonprofits is an historical accident to the detriment of New Haven–where is Winchester when we really need it? All gone except for John Wayne. Personally, I’d solve the problem by abolishing property taxes and relying on a progressive income tax, which would make the Yale-New Haven relationship moot, and equalize the funding of schools between cities and suburbs. But that’s a whole other struggle. </p>
<p>BTW, Svalbardlutefisk, are you some kind of Norwegian-Suomi combo? My wife is half Finn.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sample of one: My son coaches a NH middle school math team through Yale MathCounts Outreach and does free tax prep for low income NH residents through a Yale undergrad initiative. I’d say those are pretty decent examples of a positive partnership.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Forget undergraduates doing charity work. Yale has to be the biggest employer in New Haven by a factor of at least 10. Without Yale, New Haven would be lucky to be Bridgeport. That’s not a knock on New Haven, just a recognition that people in New Haven can grouse all they want about “Yaliens,” but the presence of Yale sustains a pretty good quality of life there. </p></li>
<li><p>I tried Modern last summer; it turned out to be around the corner from where my wife lived when she was a junior, so we visited there, too. From the very limited evidence of that one visit, I have a hard time believing that Modern isn’t dependent on Yale – not totally dependent, of course, but dependent at least to the extent of the difference between success and subsistence. There weren’t so many undergraduates there, but there were plenty of people who looked like grad students or Yale employees.</p></li>
<li><p>It’s not some sort of historical accident that New Haven doesn’t collect property taxes on Yale or its hospital. The exemption of nonprofit institutions from taxes, including property taxes, on their core operations is pretty much universal in this country. And every single city with major nonprofit institutions has the same problem and grouses about it the same way. Philadelphia is much bigger than New Haven, but Penn is by far the biggest employer here (and state and municipal governments are next), and there are a bunch of other universities, substantial secondary schools, and of course hospitals, museums, libraries and churches in the city. And no manufacturing base to speak of anymore. The real estate tax base is a constant topic of discussion.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>the grimy belly button that is New Haven</p>
<p>wjb,</p>
<p>Make that a sample of two: D1 translated at the Haven Free Clinic and tutored Latino second graders through the Bilingual Organization for Language Development. She preferred gritty NH to cloistered Princeton.</p>
<p>@JHS</p>
<p>“Forget Yale students doing charity work.” That’s the point, characterizing community service as charity work. My daughter did a student run summer program at Yale. One of the students asked me, “Do you have a dictionary at home?” QED.</p>
<p>Re Modern. You still have to wait on line on a weekend in the summer when Yale has emptied out.</p>
<p>Re historical accident of tax free nonprofits. My point was that this was not a divine right founded on natural law. I know it has a long history, but it’s a convention.</p>
<p>@pizzafatface</p>
<p>We, who could be living in Woodbridge or Madison, deliberately chose to live in New Haven because we like urban living. When our kids reached a certain age, we could tell them to walk downtown or take the bus–no car required. By attending public schools, they’re none the worse for wear, and their appreciation for diversity is something money can’t buy. My kids’ friends, who do live in places like Woodbridge or Madison, talk about how New Haven is “cool,” and the 'burbs are “vanilla.”</p>
<p>And, BTW, there are parts of Bridgeport (sans Yale or the like) of which I can speak very favorably–the Beardsley Zoo, the Discovery Museum, Black Rock, and the arena and minor league baseball.</p>
<p>@entomon</p>
<p>Thanks for the service–although I have to point out that East Rock is far from gritty as I sit here writing this in my 1895 Victorian. Somehow, the Yale president is happy to live around the corner from me.</p>
<p>As I said, I have a love-hate relationship with Yale. It’s a benefit to having a world class academic institution. I could see my kid going there. But many of my Yale affiliated friends, in their role as New Haveners, share my attitudes about Yale. (Don’t get me started on Yale’s labor strife.)</p>
<p>I think the bottom line is that Yale and New Haven are inextricably bound together, and it’s hard to discuss or imagine them as separate.</p>