The Secret World of College Admissions ... are you ready?

Parents Forum
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<p>I read the exerpts that Xiggi posted and have a few comments. The first is that the example Mr. Hseuh cited is obviously a most extreme one. Any "counselor" suggesting that a family "move" from an affluent town with excellent schools to a school with such mediocre schools should not be counseling families. Compare the two districts using NJDoE data. Average SAT-1194 vs 926, 25%ile SAT-1035 vs 810, 75th%ile-1360 vs 1020, 5 students taking AP's 86% vs 10%, #AP test taken 483 vs 17, # AP test scores 3 or higher-453 vs 8.</p>

<p>First I doubt the family actually moved to Keyport. I suspect that they rented an apartment there and drove here daughter in from Holmdel every day. Second, what message does this cheating send to their daughter? Third, how did this cheating impact the Keyports actual valedictorian? Neither the "counselor" or the family evidently cared! How did this impact her academic prep for college? </p>

<p>And how about Yale and MIT? Didn't they find it curious why this student from a family with a Holmdel address and income "moved" to Keyport? That tidbit should have leapt off the page of any adcom and been evidence of extreme "gaming of the system". If it had been me, the application would have immediately found the circular file.</p>

<p>The article seems to have an undercurrent of questioning the policy of URM admissions. I must state upfront that I support URM policies PROVOIDED it also includes serious consideration of socio-economic status. I see no reason to give a "Nicole Richie" any pass whatsoever. What difference does it make if a URM student with somewhat inferior "stats" is admitted to Harvard? A student that is denied admission is not going to be relegated to the local community college. He may end up at MIT, Chicago, Duke, Penn, JHU, Amherst or any number of great colleges.</p>

42

<p>Well why not? Isn't an excellent education invaluable? Would you deprive them of this?</p>

<p>How can you put a price on it? What is a mere $25,000?</p>

<p>For many outsiders the efforts many of the posters on this board to get into the prestige school look pretty wild.</p>

<p>I think that we will definitely see more and more of this. I expect that business will boom for the guy who was interviewed for the story, though he may have to keep his involvement secret as he has all his Asian clients, have name changes, move to poor neighborhood schools, enter beauty contests, spend major time on cheerleading and roller blading.</p>

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<p>I wonder if the people that pony up $25,000 to hire crooks, to help them get into an Ivy School, then turn around and slap us again by having a low EFC and getting financial aid. Because, hey, they obviously have no scruples, so there are no moral or ethical barriers.</p>

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<p>I think that we should not focus so much on the money aspect, but more on what happens to the student. First, it must be a given that $25,000 might pale next to the investments that families have made for private school tuitions or the pursuit of expensive ECs. For a family with children attending a public high school, the $25,000 might offer a better return on investment that paying for years of private tuition. </p>

<p>Also, we do not know how much the NJ student really paid for the services of Shaw. I would think that the payment of #25,000 would entail a minimum of privacy for the student as opposed to see her story posted on Mr. Shaw's website or in newspapers. Obviously, she is the same student who accepted to participate in Miss Teen Pageant, so the fear of adverse publicity may not that important. </p>

<p>I still think that the two worst angles of the story is that the student will have to live with the tarnished reputation of having been "packaged" but accepted to pay the price, and, as Originaloog pointed out, that such packaging worked at Yale. </p>

<p>This is why I consider the positions expressed by the Education Conservancy to be utopian -at least for the most selective schools. Even if the upper crust of our colleges support EC's positions, their own frailty to be "gamed" seems to demonstrate that the return to normalcy won't be universal. In my opinion, candidates who consider applying to the ubiquitous "top" schools, need to be aware of hard it truly is, and that all competition won't be fair. It is also why I would recommend a different book -or additional book: "The College Admission Mystique" by Bill Mayher. This book does not pretend to change the system, but rather focuses on exploring the potential negative impact of the pitfalls of the admission process. Time permitting, I'll write a more detailed review, but for the time being, I'd like to say that it is one of the very best book written on the subject. </p>

<p>Lastly, I stated before that I did not agree with the racial qualifications made by Mr. Shaw. Just as Northstarmom said, the comments about the differences in expected SAT for Asians versus URM are a "tad" exaggerated. I also believe that it paints the Asian community in too dark of a color. Only a minuscule percentage of Asians will resort to such extreme tactics. And for a good reason: the stories of the intense competition faced by Asians is totally overblown. They are still enrolling at colleges at much higher rates than any other ethnic groups. The fact that the rate of growth has slowed down is mostly due to the increased competition from others who followed the "model" that yielded astronomical acceptance rates for asians in the past twenty years. In this regard, the correlation between applications and admissions of Asians is not a good yardstick: it simply represents that the number of overly ambitious or misguided applications has skyrocketed. Adding up all the applications at highly selective schools yields a number that clearly surpasses the number of Asians who scored in the highest ranges of standardized scores. On the other hand, the same cannot be said for the caucasian population. No matter how we look at it, if white applicants have some advantages, they also face the hardest and most brutal competition. And nobody faces a stronger competition than the BWRK!</p>

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<p>chocoholic, just what I was thinking.</p>

<p>For years when my friends have asked me how their kids can get into an Ivy I joked, "move to Nebraska and homeschool..." Wow, never dreamed people would go this far.</p>

<p>In our area college consultants are more like the $3K range but I don't think they do anything you can't get on CC other than be the person who reminds your kids to write the essays, meet with their counselors, get stuff in, etc. (In some households it may be well worth the $3K to get out of this job!)</p>

<p>I wonder, does Shaw do a money-back guarantee? Imagine spending $25K for an Ivy and not getting in. Also, wouldn't an Ivy be tempted to rescind the acceptance of someone who had tricked them like this? </p>

<p>I mean, I'm okay with the teen pageant because, though it was suggested to her in a cynical attempt to package her, that is something the kid actually did do... thus it is not that different from a kid doing debate club to 'look good for college.' But moving to a poor inner city school and essentially posing as an academically exceptional poor inner city kid... seems like fraud to me.</p>

46

<p>Xiggi,
In thinking about it, though, Shaw probably could guarantee admission of any black kid or Hispanic kid with 1350 and higher scores. He could do that as long as the parents were willing to move to a poor neighborhood, quit their jobs and divorce so that the kid would have visible hardship, and allow themselves or their kid to be attacked by drug dealers. Perhaps he'd even suggest that the family attend a KKK rally -- without sheets.</p>

<p>Should the kid be a light skinned African American with light colored hair or a blond, fair skinned Hispanic, Shaw could suggest hair dying, plastic surgery and sunlamps for the unfortunate youngster. Of course, it also would be important for any Hispanics lacking Spanish-sounding names to change their names to ones that are appropriately Hispanic sounding. The parents also should make a point of only speaking Spanish when they are in earshot of admissions officers.</p>

<p>With such visible hardships and URM characteristics, the high-scoring URMs would be guaranteed admission to any Ivy.</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.hernandezcollegeconsulting.com/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hernandezcollegeconsulting.com/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If anyone is interested, Michele H also charges upwards of $30k for consulting.</p>

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<p>I don't see the problem with whatever these consultants are charging. They can charge what they want, and it is the business of those who pay it as to what the worth is. At what dollar point do we draw the line? Many of us pay for SAT prep courses, may pay someone to help with the forms, maybe a counselor to give them a start. If the whole package is under $2000, does it make OK? </p>

<p>There is an old George Bernard Shaw story that has him propositioning a woman, offering her $1M for a night with her. And she agrees. As they are about to leave, he tells her that he only has ten bucks he can spare. She renegs, indignantly, asking him what he thinks she is. "Ma'am, I believe that has been established, " Shaw replies, "We're now just bickering over the price."</p>

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<p>I don't know about Nebraskans, but homeschoolers aren't admitted to ivies at a higher rate than other students. </p>

<p>I truly think the case cited is an anomaly. Most parents have better sense than to uproot their families just to have a chance at getting their children into an ivy school. Poorer neighborhoods almost always have poorer schools. The school location differential would likely be cancelled by the education quality differential. Although colleges talk about students taking the most difficult courses available, if the hardest courses at a school aren't very rigorous, name brand colleges aren't giving even straight A students a second look.</p>

<p>Has anyone considered whether the Shaw fellow might be promoting his services by telling a tall tale?</p>

50

<p>If you are already committed to spending upwards of $160k, in many cases to have your kid taught or at least graded by a TA, what's another $30k? Instead of giving that diamond necklace to your wife (or the diamond studded ring to hubby), or purchasing your third Lexis for the both of you, you can get more conversational mileage over the next 10 years over the proper college admission, right?</p>

<p>(May I ask what "Asians" we are talking about? First generation Pakistanis? Afghan refugees? Fifth generation Chinese? Hmong or Mien folks from Minneapolis or Fresno (with the lowest high school graduation rates in the country, and the lowest SAT scores?) Palauians? Third generation Japanese? Sons and daughters of Vietnamese boat people? Mongolians? Asian Indians whose parents run small motels in small towns and cities across America?)</p>

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<p>EllenF, I don't really know either; it was just a jokey way of saying "distinctive kids stand out."</p>

<p>Nobody else thinks posing as a disadvanted kid is bordering on fraud?</p>

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<p>Bluebayou, Wait, let me get her on speed dial under "WHFO".</p>

<p>As to the "price" , I agree it is a value judgment and I am not trying to impose mine on anyone else. But I don't like it when people charge $200 a sheet for plywood right before a hurricane, or sell $30k security systems to elderly social security recipients either. They're all preying IMO unfairly on people's fears. I do believe that the market will take care of these folks over time, but I also believe some will be duped out of money they don't have to spend.</p>

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<p>mini, your point is good, there are many many diverse "asians."</p>

<p>In LA I interviewed many kids from Korean families who had been sent to the US (as early as age 9, 10, but more often age 13,14) to live with cousins or aunts so that they could attend US public schools and stand a better chance at being admitted to a US college... also so they could apply to UC's as in-state residents.</p>

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<p>The $25K package comes with the promise that "we will edit and re-write essays that highlight the superior dedication and maturity that will make the applicant stand out from the competition." Kind of upfront about ghostwriting essays, aren't they? Yet the first sentence in their letter to parents is "Few decisions will have as great of an impact as the choice of a college for your child." Poor usage - I wouldn't want them writing essays for me at any cost!</p>

<p>Could this be some kind of elaborate hoax? It just seems so implausible that ANYONE would shell out that kind of money for that kind of ... bunk.</p>

55

<p>I started a thread on a similar topic in December, but it received no response. I am copying what I wrote then below, as I think it is relevant here:</p>

<p>Do college counselors help? </p>

<hr>

<p>I am just starting this thread out of curiosity, as I am (thankfully) finished with the college admissions process for my kids. A very old friend of mine lives in an extremely wealthy community where hiring these counselors seems to be the norm and where many students from the highly ranked public school aspire to be admitted to top colleges, and she and her husband hired a counselor to help their child. I talk to the friend only infrequently, but when I do it seems that she is may not be totally keyed in to all of the details of the admissions process, although she is an extremely intelligent and highly competent professional in her field. She and her husband are both extremely busy professionally, and I don't think they have the time to delve into the details of college admissions. Anyway, in September she told me that the counselor had "helped her child to choose" the school to apply to Early Decision. The school is one of the top 10 LACs. I did not get the feeling that this school was one that the child fell wildly in love with and applied to against the counselor's advice, but that it was a school which the counselor recommended applying to. I don't know much about the child's record, except that in passing I was told that the SATs were "a little below the average" for this school. To make a long story short, the child was not admitted to the school (not sure if deferred or rejected) and is now applying to a bunch of other schools. My friends told me that the counselor did things like helping prepare an activity sheet to give to teachers writing recommendations and making sure a draft of the essay was written in the summer. She also said the counselor helped to get a friend's child off the waiting list at a college because she knew the right people in admissions to call ?!? My question is, based on this limited information, which may not be complete: What, if anything, do these counselors actually do to help their clients? From what I know, it seems like a big waste of money with a disappointing result, at least in this case. Am I missing something here?</p>

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<p>It's the image of the kids feeling they have failed their parents, themselves and, as the kids like to say it, "in life" if they don't get in. Hope IvySuccess' success rate is 100%, because imagine how the kid will feel after the $25K is gone and they don't get into the exact school they/M/D had in mind.</p>

<p>Not saying IvySuccess is single-handedly responsible for this sad phenomenon, but doesn't their "mission" put it in high relief?</p>

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<p>"May I ask what "Asians" we are talking about? "</p>

<p>Mini, may I ask you what difference it makes in THIS context? </p>

<p>This thread is not about what one particular group would do, it is more generic than that. For what is worth, the fact that the Asian community is not homogeneous has been well documented and discussed ad nauseam on this board. By now, we all know that the situation of Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians is different from 5th generation ABC's or Japanese. On the other hand, much less is written about the differences between African upper-class members, Haitian refugees and black inner-city kids, or about the differences between New York's Puerto Ricans, Los Angeles' Mexicans, and quasi illegal Salvadorians or Hondurenos. </p>

<p>The differences exist everywhere -within and outside the ethnic groups. It is impossible to assimilate groups, even among recent immigrants or refugees. For instance, the asian immigrant population displays a surprisingly high percentage of parents with graduate and doctoral degrees -much higher than the white "autochthon" population. In comparison, the same percentage among hispanics is almost nil. </p>

<p>I would be the first to agree that the subtle differences should permeate through the current URM classifications, but it is impossible to overlook why,as an ethnic group, asians can NO LONGER be considered an URM.</p>

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<p>See post #32.</p>

<p>Contrary to what you wrote, TONS has been written about the difference between African (and Carribean) upper class applicants and Haitian refugees and black inner-city kids (with articles and posts about HYP loading themselves up with the former). Meanwhile, you write: </p>

<p>"the asian immigrant population displays a surprisingly high percentage of parents with graduate and doctoral degrees -much higher than the white "autochthon" population."</p>

<p>I don't know a single Hmong, Mien, Lao, Palauian, Mongolian, or Afghani with parents with graduate and doctoral degrees, and I travel in those circles. So I guess "one" would be "surprising".</p>

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<p>Mini, with all due respect, your statement is not contrary to mine. Even if your proposal that TONS has been written, this does not contradict my position that MUCH LESS has been written on the subject, and especially on CC. Semantics rule!</p>

<p>As far as the "surprising" statistics, you would not have to look much farther than the CC archives where I posted them in the past. Since I know that you like accurate statistics, I'll even dig them for you. :)</p>

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<p>Reposted from the archives:</p>

<p>I am working on a paper/essay and I just encountered a document called:
"National Education Longitudinal Study of 1988 (NELS:88/94)"
SOURCE: U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. The document was quoted in a more recent document regarding Education of Hispanics. That document can be found at this link:
President's Advisory Commission on Education Excellence
for Hispanic Americans Releases Final Report or <a href="http://www.yesican.gov/releases/finalreport_april03.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yesican.gov/releases/finalreport_april03.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I am posting this because the figure cited for Asians is startling. We have discussed in the past the impact of the family in the Asian communities. Does anyone know if the cited figure could have changed a lot based on more recent immigration patterns? If still correct in 2004, that is a remarkable total for families with at least one college graduate. </p>

<p>High school graduates' Fathers' Educational Attainment level as of 1992 </p>

<p>Column 1 Race
Column 2 Less than high school
Column 3 High school or GED
Column 4 Some college
Column 5 Finished college
Column 6 Postgraduate </p>

<p>--1-----2----3----4----5----6--
Asian: 08.9 22.3 18.2 20.9 29.7
Hispa: 39.9 24.8 17.9 09.3 08.3
Black: 17.5 37.8 22.8 13.6 08.3
White: 09.9 32.4 21.8 19.2 16.7
AmeN: 17.0 55.0 13.3 08.5 06.1
All---: 13.3 32.2 21.3 17.8 15.5 </p>

<p>AmeN is American Natives + Alaska </p>

<p>The entire discussion is at <a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?70/45786%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?70/45786&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>