The Secret World of College Admissions ... are you ready?

Parents Forum
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<p>One of the interesting (if off topic) things to look at is the correlation between Pell Grant recipient status and race/ethnicity. The major state universities with by far the highest rate of Pell Grant recipients (students from families with incomes roughly at $40k or below - and many of whom come from high-cost areas like San Francisco and LA -- are the seven in California. They also happen to have the highest percentage of "Asian" students. For whatever reason, the association of Asian students with either wealth, or (likely) parents with higher degrees breaks down when it comes to the California publics. </p>

<p>In contrast (not that this is on topic), the percentage of Pell Grant recipients at Harvard is 6.8%. Yet, the percentage of African-American/Hispanic/Native American students is over 17%. If half the Pell Grant recipients were students of these colors (and thus way overrepresentative of the population of has a whole), there would still be roughly 5X as many wealthier AAs/Hispanic/NA students as poorer ones. (And this wouldn't leave much room for poorer white or Asian American students, either) </p>

<p>The point being that there isn't a single profile for Asian American students. It might very well be the case that the parent profile of Asian American students at Harvard (or Yale or Princeton) is very, very different from those at the state u's, including Berkeley and UCLA, and that the overlap just isn't that great. To generalize might be downright dangerous.</p>

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<p>And since I wrote "post #32" I supposed I should state, mini, that the threads I mentioned on CC are fueled by students calling themselves, for instance, "AnotherAsianBoy". They believe that they are discriminated against in admissions based on their ethnicity. I used the term they use to describe themselves: "Asian". A few have indicated they are of Chinese ancestry, but I just didn't take a poll. They self-identified and I was reporting their concerns as a possible reason why families might "invest" in these expensive make-overs/counselors.</p>

<p>The parents I referred to at my sons' school who are focused on the "top X" schools are mostly Chinese, followed by Korean and Japanese, and to a lesser degree Indian.</p>

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<p>Mini, to paraphrase the illustrious Eureka's graduate ... Here you go again! </p>

<p>I am not sure what can be learned from your Pell grants' correlations, but some of the numbers published by UCOP won't support that Asians are the poorest applicants in California.</p>

<p>I hope you'll agree that the UC is a "reasonable" yardstick for asians. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.ucop.edu/sas/infodigest/pdf/id99_23a.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ucop.edu/sas/infodigest/pdf/id99_23a.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Parental Income of California Applicants by Ethnicity
Fall 1997 Term</p>

<p>African American $38,900
Asian American $55,000
American Indian $44,292
Chicano $33,000
E Ind/ Pakis $70,250
Filipino American $60,000
Latino $42,000
White $79,000
Other $58,000
Unkn $62,000
Total $60,000</p>

<p>As far as the Harvard example, if you were to replace the URM with Asians, would you not reach a similar conclusion? So what is the point? </p>

<p>PS I have to thank TheDad for the Reagan quote!</p>

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<p>Hoo boy, glad my D (or my wife & I as parents) didn't get caught up in this maelstrom...</p>

<p>What are we all talking about here, folks? It's the ability to be able to make a living at the end of the day (or the end of grad school, to be more specific). At whatever level, to be able to support one's self in a desired field. Self-esteem, self-worth--all important qualities based on the paycheck that will buy the vittles.</p>

<p>All that Xiggi was trying to point out (I think) was the absurdity & irony of the process & perceived quotas at the top 15-20 universities. My wife & I both read 'The Gatekeepers' early on, and that book was enough to give any parent or high-achieving student the heebie-jeebies. While my D is waiting to hear from one of the upper echelon schools mentioned (and I believe she's on the fence there) she's already been accepted with half-rides to two schools ranked 25-50 in the USNWR 'rankings', so the pressure's basically off. D's high school wasn't college prep caliber, nor did they have the budget to promote themselves as such. But if the college counselor did make one cogent point, it was to say that the vast majority of consultants were like snake-oil salesmen. As they say, there's a new sucker born every day...</p>

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<p>Frazzledone wrote:<br>
*The $25K package comes with the promise that "we will edit and re-write essays that highlight the superior dedication and maturity that will make the applicant stand out from the competition." Kind of upfront about ghostwriting essays, aren't they? Yet the first sentence in their letter to parents is "Few decisions will have as great of an impact as the choice of a college for your child." Poor usage - I wouldn't want them writing essays for me at any cost!</p>

<p>Could this be some kind of elaborate hoax? It just seems so implausible that ANYONE would shell out that kind of money for that kind of ... bunk.*</p>

<p>Mmmm, yes, it is hard to believe that people are willing to pay Ivysuccess huge amounts of money for "application packaging" services, which presumably include proofreading, yet their corporate website itself is poorly proofread and inaccurate.</p>

<p>They prominently show "College Admisison [sic] Strategies" as a (misspelled) boldface header link at the bottom of the webpage xiggi originally listed above. </p>

<p>And on another page at their site, Ivysuccess writes (incorrectly):</p>

<p>* For the Class of 2007, Harvard implemented a program known as early action, in which -- unlike early decision -- a student could apply early but was not obligated to matriculate. However, for the Class of 2008, the school reinstituted its binding policy. *</p>

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<p>MotherOfTwo asked how college counselors help their clients and what exactly do they do. Others are discussing such counselors as unnecessary and you'd have to be a sucker to use one. I am going to offer my opinion on the subject. </p>

<p>First, my family has not used any college counselors. We learned about this process through books and resources such as this website and by doing. As a mother, I took an active role in being a resource/facilitator for my kids who drove the process. It has taken a lot of time but I would not have done it any other way. I have always been involved in these sorts of things in their lives as it is a priority for me, plus I do not work full time. </p>

<p>However, I fully recognize that for SOME parents, they either do not have the "know-how", don't know where to begin, and don't for WHATEVER reason have the time to devote to guiding their child through the process. While I can't identify with that, I know that such situations exist. For some, having a counselor guide them through the process is very helpful when they are overwhelmed by this process about which they don't know a whole lot. Not every family who engages a college counselor is doing so to get an "edge". Rather, they are unable to get the guidance they need from GCs at school who for whatever reason simply cannot devote the amount of one to one attention for each child that is needed. Some parents turn to counselors to help their kid through this process, doing what many of us parents are doing for our kids for free. </p>

<p>Now, I have read of these HIGH priced services such as the one posted here....Ivy Success....and another consultant, MH, was mentioned as a high end service too. I know that Katherine Cohen in NY (author of The Truth About Getting In) also is a very high end expensive counselor and when I first learned of such fees people pay for this, I was astounded. The market in some areas really is for this and this price does not stop folks in those areas. I think in some of those cases, parents ARE paying for someone to get their kid into college. But the other way to view a college counselor (who charges way less) is getting assistance for this process when you don't know how to go about it and maybe don't have the time (not judging these folks who don't have the time). But be assured that there are counseling services such as those offered by CC (afterall these are the folks who bring you this free website full of free resource information...articles, Ask the Dean, message boards, etc. ). Their packages offer unlimited counseling for a MUCH lower fee than the examples on this thread. </p>

<p>As to what a counselor CAN do or offer....let me say that an independent college counselor cannot call up a school and advocate for the student. Rather, some things a counselor can do (that most of us CC parents are doing ourselves....remember now, this is for parents who are NOT doing what most of you guys are doing)....</p>

<p>A college counselor can evaluate a student's academic, personal, and extracurricular background and guide selection of appropriate and desired colleges. He/she can assess the chances of a student's admission to target colleges (ones the student has already selected on his own, plus ones the counselor selects); help in developing a timeline for the college admissions process; guide students, through self-assessment, to identify "hooks" and strengths to highlight on their applications; assist in every aspect of the application process including selection of essay topics, editing of essays and short answer questions (NOT writing them), presentation of extracurricular achievements and academic recognition; offer suggestions on how to solicit the most effective letters of recommendation from teachers and guidance counselors, as well as suggestions regarding supplemental recommendations; suggest ways to make the most of college visits and appropriate contact with professors, admissions officers, coaches, alumni and students; work with the student on how to continually express interest in particular colleges, ofetn a factor in the admissions process; prepare a student for alumni and on-campus interviews through mock interviews, providing likely questions and offering tips; and for junior or younger students....assist with course planning, testing schedule, extracurricular choices, and summer activities; and provide support through the entire process including deferrals and waitlists and guide in choosing a college once acceptances are offered. </p>

<p>Now, I did all that with my kids. I suppose most of you did too. If you think of what you did....didn't you do a bunch of that.....I did not do any of it FOR them....I did not make them apply anywhere or decide anything or write anything...but I facilitated and guided them and supported them through all those steps above. For those who can't or just don't choose to do that...every kid could really USE that kind of guidance and so some parents pay for it. I don't have a problem with that. If a family engages a counselor for the right reasons, they are simply paying someone to do what a parent might ordinarily do and/or pay someone who has expertise in an area that they do not have. When a parent is paying 25K with the hopes of someone who will GET THEIR KID INTO COLLEGE, well, that is a different motivation...like trying to buy their way into some advantage. But I don't have a problem with those who engage in using a paid counselor. Ideally the school counselor could do all that but when the school counselor is assigned 300 kids, well, you are not gonna get that kind of one to one assistance. I did this job as a mom but some hire others to do it. Some hire others to babysit their toddlers when they work and just like that kind of assistance to do some of this stuff for kids, some parents pay others to assist their kids with this "job". I bet there are a bunch of parents on here who paid for SAT tutors. The independent college counselor is not all that different of a thing. A kid can use books to study for the SAT or get a paid tutor. A kid can use books and have a parent who puts in endless hours to gather resources and be available for help with the college process, or pay someone to help instead. Not all that different. </p>

<p>However, I do start to wonder when I read about these 25K services, but I guess there are all levels of any "product" or "service". However, I don't think the 25K service gets you anything better than a 3K service in this field. Just my point of view. I could never afford the 3K service myself so it is a moot point, besides the fact that I enjoyed doing this job myself with my kids. But I recognize this is not for all people.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>I'm thinking that if we take a step back, we will see that we are all here (well, setting aside the addiction some of us have developed) because we want to support our S/Ds as they navigate the turbulent waters of college admissions. </p>

<p>Many (most? all?) of us have S/Ds who have worked hard enough and have been blessed with sufficient gifts that they have a chance at the "gold ring" of HYPS/AWS. Many of us also know that they may not "get" the gold ring because of the supply and demand environment they are in. So, many of us are working hard internally to try and evaluate for ourselves the extent to which that really matters and to help ourselves and our S/Ds realize that there are many wonderful college opportunities out there beyond that tiny slice of the college universe. In other words, we want to eliminate that whole "gold ring" view of college selection.</p>

<p>However, some S/Ds want to "go for it" and see their best or one of their best fits there. We, as parents, vary in the lengths and expense we will go in support of this effort. What may seem an outrageous or unethical $$ amount to some may not seem so to others. </p>

<p>We also (at least some of us) blanch at efforts that seem to wrest the process away from our S/D. Sometimes, I am sure, parents do that. Other times, it may just seem that way, because it is hard in this wonderful medium of internet posting to adequately convey a full picture of what we think and what we are doing.</p>

<p>Beneath it all, I'll bet that what is even more upsetting than the $$ IvySuccess commands (or wants to command) is the approach: [ul][<em>]uprooting a child/family and moving to a new school for the sole purpose of finding it easier there to "show up" the other students, [</em>]doing plastic surgery on a child's interests and activities not in an effort to support their developing talents, or to expose them to all life has to offer, but only to "game" the system [li]and, then, on top of that, charging a sum that can be justified I-don't-know-how[/ul]</p>[/li]
<p>I hope Northstarmom is right that more and more adcoms are "sniffing out" these overpackaged apps. If enough of them do, then the market niche IvySuccess is trying to fill would dry up and we can all raise a glass to toast its demise.</p>

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<p>soozievt - I agree that some who hire IvySuccess/MH and similar priced services are simply trying to obtain what many cc posters are able - with much investment of time, energy and devotion - to do for themselves or what those of us fortunate to have quality GC in S/Ds school are able to obtain there.</p>

<p>GCs at S's PHS had a wonderful way of putting it: "We are here to help you make sure that your application paints a picture of you as you are on your best day."</p>

<p>The objection I have to "the $25K solution" is not the price (although it is shocking and certainly pull us all up short), but the fact that they are trying to help the applicant paint of picture of someone other than who they are at all.</p>

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<p>Funny about 'overpackaged apps'. D's EC's include showchoir, chorus, wind ensemble, etc., and she decided some type of portfolio would be in order. My brother's a video editor, and I specifically told him to purposely NOT make the short video look slick/professional, but not cheesy/amateurish either. The result was somewhere in the middle & just maybe it made (or will make) a difference somewhere along the line.</p>

<p>But the point is how crazy this all makes us, how we overthink the process at times.</p>

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<p>In the world of athletics, families with gifted athletes very often shop programs and coaches, and will move or get an address where there is the best advantage for the student. I have seen this many times. Also, it is certainly a regular thing that we reassess where we are and what we are doing in terms of our children's education. Each time we move, we do this. Each time our kids reach a breakpoint educationally, we do this. When it appears that their school is not a good match we do this. When we hear of better matches in school districts we do this. We also might do an inventory of what the kids' strengths and weaknesses are, and work to dovetail them into a college presentation. </p>

<p>There is that risk of losing something when you go for a makeover of your kids' life from his essays, to his interests to where he goes to school. I don't believe that following Shaw's advice necessarily gives a kid the edge in getting into top schools, nor do I believe that adcoms always see through these packaged apps. These years are times for self discovery for kid and sticking them into something that is not where they would go on their own may not get the best results. I see kids at S's prep school whose parents were convinced this was the way to get them into a top college only to find that the kids are not performing as they may have in a public highschool. Kids are not formula driven.</p>

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<p>JmMom wrote: "The objection I have to "the $25K solution" is not the price (although it is shocking and certainly pull us all up short), but the fact that they are trying to help the applicant paint of picture of someone other than who they are at all."</p>

<p>Well I certainly agree with that notion.....and the example in the article is so over the top. THAT is an example of gaming and strategizing and employing a counselor to get an "edge". I just want to say that not ALL paid counseling services aim to package a kid into what he is NOT. Many counselors are doing the things I outlined above which are exactly what I, as a parent, did with my own kids. Our GCs don't do any of that here. I did this with my kids but some might turn to an "expert" who has the time and know how, when they as parents, either cannot or will not do this themselves. That is an entirely different thing than what you are describing as objectionable services (about which I would agree). I can't even fathom making a kid choose an EC to get into college. My kids chose theirs when young and beg to do them. There was never a discussion on which were good for a resume! My philosophy is do what you enjoy, set personal goals, strive to achieve in whatever you choose and then let the rest happen. When it comes time to apply to college, take the time to really show WHO you are on the application. Don't CHANGE who you are but definitely put a lot of effort into showing who you are. A college counselor can help a student to highlight his/her strengths. The counselor's job is not to make up "strengths" for the kid, lol. </p>

<p>The whole doing "X to get into college" is a philosophy I have learned more and more about by being exposed to this stuff online but it is not one I am familiar with in daily life. I'll clarify that statement a bit in the sense that of course, one might choose to achive academically in order to reach the goal of going to a good college. But other than achieving and doing your best, I can't see choosing to do specific things that I have read online that others seem to do, SPECIFICALLY with the goal of getting into college. Examples I have read where SOME people have used THAT as their motivation are picking to go to boarding school to have an edge up with selective college admissions (nothing against prep schools but that would not be my reason for going to one), picking a summer academic program to look good to a college (nothing against summer academic programs if it fuels your passion though), picking an EC, particularly a so called "unique" one because it enhances the college resume, accruing community service hours (the first time I have ever read of kids who had some sum total of service hours was here on CC!), and on and on. I just have no experience with making these kinds of choices for the college admissions process. I'm wondering if some of these kids who do certain EC to look good for college, suddenly stop involvement in those areas once in college? I dunno, but my kids wanna continue theirs in college. I think doing any of the examples I just gave is fine if you are doing them cause of some desire for those experiences themselves, but to do them to help you to get into college, nah, don't agree.</p>

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<p>** Free Enterprise! **</p>

<p>I don't have a problem with the business offering these services, or with the price. People who can and want to pay will pay. Sure, you can do it youself - you can also clean your own home (who has housekeepers?).....plan your own vacations (travel agents).....cut your own hair, etc....</p>

<p>People DON'T do those things themselves because someone else can do it better, faster, easier. And, for that, we pay.</p>

<p>I do have a problem with making a kid over and taking them away from their own interests and focus in efforts to gain an admission advantage. </p>

<p>However, in some cases, kids have interests and hobbies that aren't exploited enough in the app.....</p>

<p>Hey, if you don't want to play the game, stay off the field (apply to other schools with less competitive admissions) - OR, play the fairly game and live with the consequences. If you apply to a school with a 9% acceptance rate, expect that the competition is pretty ruthless and people are going to do what they feel thay need to do to gain a leg up. That's the reality. Why blame a company who saw the need and marketed to it. I really don't think Ivy Success has enough clients to change the face of admissions. </p>

<p>Some people have more money than time - it's common. Don't feel sorry for them because they spend so much $$ on admission strategies. They might feel sorry for us spending so much time on this site.....and they might think we're pretty sad. It's all relative.</p>

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<p>I feel really sorry for these kids who are being packaged for the sake of getting into the Ivy.</p>

<p>I say that as the parent of two kids who really liked their respective high schools, neither of which was chosen with much concern about how that would affect college admission. I mean, as a parent it is a joy to me to see my kids happy and engaged, enjoying their classes, the EC's and the social activities, making good friends, and going through the wonderful transition from child to young adult that happens over the 4 years of high school. We see a lot of talk about "fit" for college -- well "fit" for high school is even more important, because a 15 year old is probably a lot more vulnerable than a 19 year old. </p>

<p>We are lucky to live in an area where the public schools offer a variety of "magnet" or "alternative" high schools - and I encouraged my kids to go to the high schools where I thought they would be happiest and which seemed to offer the best environment for their personal and social growth during those crucial years. </p>

<p>Our kids are not products; we don't need to market them ... nor hire others to tell us how to do it. </p>

<p>I'm not criticizing the traditional college counselor -- the person who charges a reasonable fee to consult with a student -- there are many kids who really could use that help in meeting their personal goals. But that's a far cry from these designer packages, apparently intended to produce designer offspring.</p>

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<p>"Our kids are not products; we don't need to market them"</p>

<p>This reminds me of one of my colleagues at work. His D is a year ahead of my S (she's a freshman in college now). He was super competitive about the college app process last year and I rememebr him saying (more than once)....."I've got a great product" (meaning his D). I thought it was really odd. He worked the system like a pro and, untimately, got his D a full ride at a fabulous LAC - after much negotiating and offer-topping. He was dismayed when I told him that my son was planning to apply ED because I wouldn't be able to use his "strategies". Ugh......not appealing to me at all.</p>

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<p>If that is what a family wants do to, they can do it. Repackaging their child. I don't agree with it. I believe you lose much more than you gain, and may not gain at all. But it is done to varying degrees. Most of us pick where we live because of a school district, pick our schools for the college possibilities. When you look at FAQs at prep schools, the college list always comes up. If a kid is looking at at summer possibilities, I think it is perfectly fine if you consider how it would look on a college resume. Where you start to make that your primary motivation, however, you are losing sight of letting your child develop. And kids often drop ECs at college, even if they were lifetime passions. My son's sport lost about 20% of the kids who started for a number of reasons. I wouldn't bet that this packaging even works. Some kids would have gotten in anyways, some will not get in even if they do exactly what is told (and the family is a$20K poorer), and some may have developed into a better candidate had the kid been left to blossom on his own. A lot of these kids are preselected any ways. You get a top grade student with tops testscores who are amenable to doing what they are told in working hard at the pursuit of any EC, and a goodly percentage of those are going to make it into the very top colleges, and all of them are going to get into a selective school.</p>

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<p>I agree Jamimom that "repackaging" a young person is, well, not for me. I like the term you used to describe what we are talking about...repackaging. But what I DO think kids need to do on college applications and I think YOU would agree is to "package" themselves. Yes, market themselves. That does not mean reinvent themselves! It means to really market who they are....show their strengths, traits, etc. in the entire package. So, I don't find the word "marketing" or "packaging" off putting. You need to do that to create an effective college application that SHOWS the student. A college counselor can assist a child or his/her parents in how to do that. This is very very different than "repackaging" and picking things to look good for college. Rather, the student has already chosen what he has done over the years but now is showing off what he has chosen to do. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Yeah...don't think it's such a secret, Xigs. People rent apartments in good school districts every minute. You're definition of why a school is "good" might be different, but the motivation behind the decision is the same: namely, climb the educational ladder. </p>

<p>There are risks in stashing a non-district kid in a prime school district and there are risks in stashing a kid in a lower income peer group. Not for the faint of heart....but not a bad exercise in diversity, perhaps. Kinda eliminates the need for Volunteer America or another Proof of Good Person EC.</p>

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<p>But I tell you , Susan, I have one right now who really does not seem to have high energy or interest in anything. The first one that way. He has a smattering of things he likes to do, but a clear limit on how much time and effort he wants to put into them. I posted on the other thread a bit about him (Carolyn's on the book). But I feel very strongly that what I would gain in pushing him and packaging him, I would lose in his natural development which is a precious thing to me. This one is more malleable than the other boys, so I probably could create a persona, but there is always that risk that you make the wrong pick, and by going that route you lose what he might evolve into on his own. It may cost him in college admissions, but I truly believe the other potential loss would be more costly. But , you know, as a mom, I find myself trying--not pushing or insisting, but suggesting things, hoping that something hits a chord. See, you too have not really had this situation as you have one who is interested in everything (much like my girls) and one who has selected a special niche in which to excell, more like my boys.</p>

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<p>Wow, interesting thread. I guess I have to agree with you all about the packaging aspect being taken too far. It's like the girl in the illustration was clay to be molded by a corporation in single-minded pursuit of a specific goal. Sad. On the other hand, I sometimes feel like the wisdom I have gained on CC over the last 18 months is worth $25,000. My two kids get many of the legitimate benefits of an Ivywise-like counselor (me!) for free. Most parents aren't willing to log the hours and hours of time on the Internet or in bookstores to get that kind of help. I guess a few are willing to pay for it big time. (I'm talking about tips that I would never have thought of, such as including a cover letter with an application, giving teachers an activity list and stamped-addressed envelopes to help with recommendations, researching the alumni interviewer before the interview, etc...), not to mention the perspective of real live parents and kids who have gone this way before. Worth $25K? If it results in a best-fit scenario for my two kids (spread out over 8 years of their lives), you bet! But, no, I couldn't really afford to whip out the checkbook for it.</p>

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<p>jamimom - I so agree with you re the downside of pushing our kids. And with your amazing depth of experience, I doubt I could add anything. </p>

<p>But my S' example may be of interest. A good kid who has never given us an ounce of serious worry. And a good student. </p>

<p>But we watched over the years as various peers began to stand out in different arenas: Great athlete, never missing High Honors, outstanding musician, class officer.... these were always someone else's S/D. I would be dishonest if I said I didn't wish that it would be my S in one of these roles. I also watched (and did what I could to support, but some things have to be worked through by the kid) as he suffered rejection - not "making" the travel team, not making varsity, not successful in audition for the most select jazz band, etc. He even gave up what had seemed to be his passion - his musical instrument - in 8th grade. Just didn't want to take lessons and practice anymore. We wondered whether to push him to stick with it but, with good advice from his teacher, let it go. </p>

<p>Two years later, he picked it up again on his own and with a passion that grew and grew. By junior year, his passion was full-fledged. Still not in the most select jazz band (didn't even try for it). But he has found numerous outlets - on his own - to enjoy and shine at this passion. </p>

<p>This kid-with-no-hook who may or may not even qualify as a BWRK (he fits the "B" but not too many ECs; some music-related ones and soccer ("part of the team", varsity only in S yr)) is doing just fine. Accepted EA with good merit $$ at a great (not HYPS, need I even mention?) school that he loved upon sight and which grew on him the more he learned. What better outcome could we seek?</p>