The Secret World of College Admissions ... are you ready?

Parents Forum
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<p>Jamimom, you are right that I have not had the situation with which you grapple. I understand that there are kids that parents might have to prod or persuade to try this or that. That is a challenge. There must be a fine line with that too. I admit that my kids ask to do the stuff they wanna do and so never had to get them to do things. If anything, we are guilty of not saying no to so many things, lol. </p>

<p>Still there is a difference between creating a "persona", and just supporting a kid's choices. You can suggest things to get him interested but not make him do specific things. You can offer choices, exposure, etc. </p>

<p>What I was talking about earlier was packaging a kid AFTER he did whatever he chose to do growing up. It is more of an after the fact thing, as opposed to packaging him on the way up, if you know what I mean. I was talking of packaging in terms of putting together a document that shows off who he is. This is different than repackaging whoever he is and making him into something else. That is more a "creation" of a package. Not sure I explained this right. I only meant that the term "marketing" is not offensive to me when it comes to an application. I think ALL applicants must "market" themselves, but what I mean is to play up their strengths and as InterestedDad used to say on here, create "bullet points" so that when the reader is done with the app, he/she can describe just who this kid is. What I am OPPOSED to is creating some bullet points when growing up with the purpose of which ones the colleges "want" to see. I say the bullet points should come naturally and then later when it is time for the application, highlight these points. </p>

<p>Yet I do understand your dilemma if you've got a kid who might not naturally be motivated to pursue some interest but then there IS a place for guidance in helping him discover just what those interests are. And frankly, I like the chess one you gave earlier somewhere on here. I think kids just have to discover their passions and one way is through exposure to various offerings. I don't care what the passion is though. I don't think a parent's job is to have a say in what that passion is gonna be. A parent can provide opportunities and exposure to various things though. </p>

<p>By the way, I know you say your boys have a special niche but one thing that astounds me about your current senior is that while he excels in his special niche (theater), he ALSO is a football captain and I believe is in at least one other sport. So, he is someone who reminds me of my oldest in a way because he has one foot in the arts and one in sports. The thing with her is that she never would give one up for the other. The other one gave all of sports up for the arts eventually. But even though the first one is well rounded, when push comes to shove, IF she had to name a number one passion in terms of an interest area outside academics, she would say alpine ski racing. That was one thing she would definitely not give up in college or not be willing to go to a college that did not have it. So, even with being well rounded, and even though she truly doesn't wanna give up any of her activities, I know there is one BIG one in her life even so. </p>

<p>With your freshman HS son, I agree you cannot or would not want to push him into being more involved. But still, (admitting I don't have much experience with this issue), you can discuss with him what he wants to do with his time or ask that he find something worthwhile to do after school and you can always suggest possibilities that you think might interest him. As long as he is the one making the choices, you'll be fine. He also is still young. High school is relatively new and who knows what he will wanna do and what his friends do might have bearing as well. Ya know, if he does not end up engaged in any major EC endeavors, he could work. You and I both know that colleges also value kids holding jobs. And for you kid, lots could be gained. And what kid does not like earning money? Your boy is evolving. As long as you are involved in his life, I am sure some direction will happen as you guide him along the way. I think you are doing what I would do if in that situation...suggesting things he might enjoy doing but not making him. I'm not that good with advice, admittedly, on that issue because I have the opposite problem....too much stuff they wanna do, lots of schedule conflicts! Frankly with your huge crew, I can't imagine even if each kid had ONE EC, how you figure out the schedule and driving! I can't recall how many younger ones you have but I think there are a few, right? All I know is that YOU are the epitome, to me, of being a mom. I have NO idea how you do it even if all nine of your kids presented NO challenges and I know you have had your share of challenging stuff.</p>

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<p>The only thing I will note is that in any other industry a business with so much demand that it could turn away 85-90% of its customers would expand its capacity. A fool and his money may soon be parted but who created the environment where people would go to such lengths to gain admission to the Ivy's if not the Ivy's themselves. I mean it is not like they are shy about marketing, public relations, and self-promotion.</p>

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<p>"But we watched over the years as various peers began to stand out in different arenas: Great athlete, never missing High Honors, outstanding musician, class officer.... these were always someone else's S/D. I would be dishonest if I said I didn't wish that it would be my S in one of these roles. I also watched (and did what I could to support, but some things have to be worked through by the kid) as he suffered rejection - not "making" the travel team, not making varsity, not successful in audition for the most select jazz band, etc."</p>

<p>To me, what makes your kid stand out is his resiliency. A kid doesn't have to win or be the best to show passion. What your son did that was wonderful was that he bounced back and kept taking risks of trying different things. Difficult as this probably was for you to watch and him to experience, I imagine that as a result of his experiences, he has a stronger character than that of many students who go off to college after being only perpetual winners. In life, they won't always win. Your son will know how to rise above the inevitable defeats. Many of the winners won't know how to do that.</p>

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<p>True for the industry as a field, but not for individual parts. There is an optimum size to these parts. What you pay for luxury goods or fancy restaurants, or expensive hotels is not the cost of the services and goods provided but exclusivity. The moment something gets mass-marketed, it loses its cachet. </p>

<p>What makes a LAC a desirable place to study is its small size. What makes HYPSM desirable has largely to do with size as well. If you want large, you can have an excellent state university such as Michigan or Berkeley or Wisconsin.</p>

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<p>Its the old Festinger principle. The more exclusive something is, the more desirable it becomes.</p>

<p>As a side note, my S very impressed with professors at our local CC. He was surprised to hear their degrees from P, Stanford, MIT, etc. The difference was the students. I think you can get a good education most anywhere, but would have to look hardr among peers to find matches.</p>

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<p>Thank you, Northstarmom. You are so right that he learned rather early on that things don't always go your way and that he now knows how to respond to his own inner voices when making decisions, rather than looking first for outside validation.</p>

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<p>Ah Bookworm, you used the "E" word, which is notably absent from this discussion. There seems to be, even in this rational and well-mannered forum, so much emphasis on the goals of getting in to a choice college or getting a well-paying job after graduating. I sent two through academically superb private schools, K-12, at an expense which dwarfs these consultant fees, with no thought at all about a direct advantage in getting in to college, or setting up a highly paid career. In fact, as time went on these schools, no doubt in response to parental pressure, emphasized, with increasing petulance, that their mission was not to get their students into top colleges,but rather to awaken their minds and develop their character. In short, to educate them. Believe me, I'm not saying this is only possible at private schools, or even that they do it best. What I find demoralizing about this emphasis on packaging, these $25000 pimps (in Shakespeare the "hold door trade") and the people who employ them is how little it all has to do with the real goals of education. I'm not too concerned that these slick packaged products might take a place at an elite college away from my little darlings, because I have enough faith in our magnificent system of higher ed to know they will find a suitable place, (which they did); but I can't help feeling depressed at these signs of corruption and decay of the mission of Education.</p>

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<p>We know of a few great students from our HS who hired expensive consultants and did not get into most of their top choice schools while our kids who toiled on their own, and we nudged along gently reminding, sometimes not as gently prodding did quite well. We were very surprised.</p>

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<p>One of my son's friends at his prep school has hired one of these alleged "top gun" consultants. So far, no dice. Rejected and waitlisted from all of the schools that have notified thus far. They are awaiting word from ED2 Wesleyan last I heard. I think most of us on this board could have put together a better list for the kid so that he has something in his pocket. And they did pay those big bucks. Some of the things the kid was told to do were very time consuming, intefering with some good natural interest and attributes, and they did not pan out. And this kid is very eager to cooperate. None of my boys would have been good investments in any of these enterprises because one of their biggest problems has been doing what they are told to do and the second guess directions all of the time. And if they get it in their heads, that they prefer to do something their way, no amount of advice is going to change their minds.</p>

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<p>A friend of ours bought what now appears to be very reasonable counseling ($2-3K) for each of her two.
D- private counselor helped id and apply to several top LACs, AWS and her top two UC's. Got into none of them. Eventually went to a "lesser" UC.</p>

<p>S - has always always always wanted UCLA. Same private counselor told him not to even bother, would never get in. Applied and got in.</p>

<p>Luckily, they have no other S/Ds, so won't have to ask themselves whether to hire this "moderately-priced gun" again.</p>

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<p>Janimom, I am curious about what kinds of things the counselor told the kid to do that were time wasting. If it's possible to give examples without revealing the kid's identity, please do so. I am wondering whether these things are different than what a parent would suggest that a kid do to discover and develop their natural interests and talents.</p>

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<p>My D talked to a counselor to get organized (one session was about $200.) It was helpful, because there are so many steps to take and it provided her with a checklist. I did not elect to continue on this road because I feel I am reasonably knowledgeable about the application process... but many parents are not-- and they need this sort of service, especially if the HS GCs are not clued in.</p>

<p>The private counselor did seem to stereotype my D a bit. For example, because my D is fairly clean cut, & non-drinker, steering her to "conservative" schools. In fact, my D is artistic, liberal, and open minded and would not have liked those schools IMHO. Furthermore, D is thriving in her HS, which is filled with partiers and not at all conservative.</p>

<p>I think a parent usually knows what makes their kid tick much better than a paid consultant. Then it is just a matter of research to find the schools that match.</p>

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<p>In prep school, the kids are encouraged to be triathletes rather than take Physical Education which they must take if they are not on a team. Their is a team requirement but not for every term. The reasons for this are because these schools want to field teams in </p>

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<p>This is so, so sad. Education-wise, there is nothing going on at Yale today that is more important FOR THIS KID than what is happening in his own backyard.</p>

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<p>I am sorry to say that reading some of these posts is actually making me start to feel sick. I cannot imagine requiring kids to drop worthwhile activities that they are interested in doing in order to "package" themselves into something they are not. My kids were both involved in a whole variety of activities and interests throughout high school without any plan to package themselves. As others have stated here, they did try to present themselves in the best possible light on their college applications, as who they actually are, not as an artificially packaged person. It must be terribly damaging to a young person's self image to be told by their parents and by a hired counselor to change themselves for the elusive goal of admittance to an elite college. Also, will they be told to continue to pattern their lives in college, graduate school, and in their careers, not to meet their own interests and goals but to conform some image that outside experts have designed? I hope that college admissions counselors are able to see through these practices and not reward those who take part in them.</p>

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<p>janimom,
Thanks for the examples. I agree that it is so sad that those teens are given the clear message that who they are is not acceptable, and consequently, they must create a false image of themselves.</p>

<p>In my real life and on-line, I get so much joy out of helping young people identify, run with and develop their natural talents. It is so beautiful seeing a young person blossom as they become their best self. It also is beautiful when one can help them find a career or college where they can flourish while honing their natural gifts. It is so sad that some people apparently think that young people should be carved in order to squeeze themselves into a mold.</p>

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<p>Jamimom wrote: " And if they get it in their heads, that they prefer to do something their way, no amount of advice is going to change their minds."</p>

<p>Jamimom, I would love to get your senior son connected to my graduating daughter. They are alike in many ways! </p>

<p>Though I just said, that, she did take some advice when it came to college applications and the process, but overall she is very much like your description above, lol.
Susan</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I hope that college admissions counselors are able to see through these practices and not reward those who take part in them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Instinctively I agree, yet it only punishes the poor kid-- who was not at fault to begin with. </p>

<p>I do think about my 2nd child who has no "hooks" like his sister, then I realize that at 13, neither did she! In 10th grade, she stumbled into an elective that she fell in love with and ran with it. </p>

<p>Our job is not to "assign" passions but to help them explore a bit and find the things that ignite their passions. I don't think a kid who has been packaged will come across in an interview or in the recs the same way as a kid who flat out loves what he does.</p>

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<p>We hired a counselor, mainly because in fall of junior year it appeared that the school's CC might have to leave, or take an extended leave of absence. My daughter was just beginning to think about colleges, and floundering a bit.
The person we hired does about half or a little less college counseling, the other half is doing evaluations and helping parents of "troubled" kids get them into boarding schools and other alternative settings, including summer programs - she said college counseling was the more "fun" part of her job, I could see why.
Her fees were modest, $500 for initial consultation, which included some testing (that INTP test, DD also took it at school last year, and actually came out the same), extensive question and answer session about goals and inclinations, several back and forth sessions about lists (we did these over the phone because of where we live, usualy this would have been a couple of other visits). Then if you chose to go on, her add on fee was $1000 (1500 total), that took you all the way through May senior year, with her looking over applications, browbeating kids about the essay (so the rents didn't have to do it), helping with activity lists, went to bat for parents with FA office if necessary (I never really got her to understand there wouldn't be any FA). She proofread essays and made suggestions, but was very careful and thorough in pointing out that she did NOT write them for students.
I thought her proposed college list was very reasonable, started out with about 20 schools, including some that would not have been on my radar screen except for this forum, wide range of selectivities, and as the narrowing down began, she really emphasized safeties with my daughter. If anything, she downplayed DD's chances, pushed ED a little bit, but was honest about the risks and benefits as she saw them.</p>

<p>Was it worth it? Naw, probably not, especially after I discovered this website. But, had the school's counselor not been able to bounce back as fast as she did, it would have been worth every penny to have someone else enforce deadlines. One important thing, my daughter just didn't connect with this lady the way she did with the school counselor, and that was detrimental. If someone chooses to go this route, the parent and the student need to "interview" the counselor to be sure the 2 of them can work together, because that relationship is the important one.</p>

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<p>Susan, your older daughter really lived her highschool years as a "prep school" kid would with the type of schedule and activities that she had. Many of these schools encourage arts/athletics combos and schedule them so the kids could do both. It was one of the reasons why we put S2 into that school, though he has pushed the limits there. The drawback of these schools is that they do demand 100% of the students' time, and S2 found other venues for the arts outside of the school circles. That is really where he pushed the envelope. A friend of ours whom we knew in the Pittsburgh days who now lives in Westchester county NY--she moved there as we moved out has a son who is also a football captain, swim captain and active in other sport , and is actively auditioning for acting/MT--we ran into her at CMU and Michigan. They are still on the road as the boy has yet to complete his auditions, and she says she is just beat as they started as early as we did and will be going to the end of this month. I don't know how they are juggling this with school, performances and sports. My son is done, and he did not do much other than the football and auditions in the fall because of the auditions, but his academics suffered. Now he has several works in progress, the wrestling and has to bring up the academics. He is not home until about 10PM each night--I can't even schedule a tutor because there are no times to schedule, and he has to get that math grade and he cannot drop the course. So, yes, we juggle and struggle with them. I am thinking of boarding the freshman next year, and that way I'll only have the 3 little ones all at the parochial school to deal with. But all of them are taking music (chorus, band, string instruments) along with sports, swimming, basketball(1 of them), baseball, lacrosse, football, soccer, skating, ice hockey. And one is in the school play. All of my kids have always been very busy that way. That is how their interests evolved, though the girls were more generalists. This middle fellow of mine however seems to be happy just doing a little of what he likes when he likes to do it. Have to come up with something for him over the summer. Never ever had to do that for the older ones. They had long lists of what they wanted to do over the summer. </p>

<p>NSM, this is a topic to discuss when the app and activities just fit together too perfectly with some of these kids and there is a lack of any activities just for fun. I know that my senior's son's resume is chock full, but there is not that perfection of packaged deal but lot of stuff that seemed to come up along a selected activity. With these makeover programs , this is yet another thing for adcoms to wahtch.</p>