<p>You might want to consider that we ARE talking about the United States Government.
While it is not exactly clear what entity publishes these books, Reef Points, etc., presumably it is a government entity.</p>
<ol>
<li> Order a copy from the Government Printing Office</li>
<li> Request a copy pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act.</li>
</ol>
<p>Despite the efforts of some alumni to maintain the shroud of mystery, ANY information published by the government--including some information that is not published like meeting logs and calendars--not otherwise classified or exempt from the FOIA--including information made available to BGOs, admissions department, academy administration and other similar agencies--is available to you upon request.</p>
<p>Heck, you can even request your own admissions file!</p>
<p>
[quote]
... I really don't think the Naval Academy cares whether or not Reef Points is read by candidates. The Midstore, which is a distinctly separate entity from the Naval Academy, sells Reef Points because people will buy it, allowing them to turn a greater profit.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>We are in agreement on point #1. USNA takes no position on pre-reading Reef Points, thus there is no ethical, moral or professional breech of conduct should a pre-plebe, or anyone else for that matter, determines to read it whenever he/she pleases.</p>
<p>On pt. #2, ours may be a semantical difference, but you can be absolutely sure that the Midstore is NOT "a distinctly separate entity from the Naval Academy." It is indeed as much a part of USNA as is the food service, visitors center, and many other contracted entities, and it is overseen by DoD employees charged with ensuring that the contractors are in total and full compliance with their contractual obligations, one of which is that a certain pre-determined portion or % of revenues will be paid to the USNA by the contracting entity. btw, this is exactly the issue that lies at the root of the food issue ... said contractors have whittled away at the edges of the menu, so to speak, since about 1996 until they're now into "bone" sort of. (Maybe fried chicken bones, even?? :eek:) In other words the Midshipmen are "paying" for greater returns provided by ever lower bidding contractors. And finally the Mids have cried uncle.</p>
<p>And what I meant by "at cost" would have been better stated "at a cost." My point there was unlike the "free" copy that Mids get in Plebe summer. (Which as they soon learn is neither literally or figuratively free at all. It is paid for by their paychecks and their b,s,t ... blood, sweat and tears. Sorry for the misunderstanding.</p>
<p>Indeed nothing is free or even "at cost" in the Mid Store, per contractual requirement of the USNA, and indeed the Mid Store operator/contractor is deemed to be the preferred provider. Were you permitted to purchase said supplies anywhere else, you would have been stealing from the USNA.</p>
<p>
[quote]
you can be absolutely sure that the Midstore is NOT "a distinctly separate entity from the Naval Academy." It is indeed as much a part of USNA as is the food service, visitors center, and many other contracted entities
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The midstore is a much more separate from the Naval Academy than, for example, food services. Food service/King Hall, officially known as the Midshipman Food Services Division (MFSD) is directly overseen and run by Naval Officers. At the top is an 0-4 (LCDR) with a junior officer or two directly below. These officers oversee the day to day running of King Hall as well as act as the point of contact for determining menus and setting up any and all King Hall catered events. While most King Hall employees are civilians, the management of King Hall is in the hands of commissioned Naval Officers. Basically MFSD is an arm of the Naval Academy</p>
<p>The Midstore however is distinctly different from MFSD in the fact that it is managed and run by civilians. Because it is a relatively autonomous unit as oppose to MFSD, I would counter that it is much less connected to the Academy as Food Service would be because it is not directly run by the the military.</p>
<p>This separation between the midstore and the Academy was made very clear in the process of procuring supplies for the conference in the example from my earlier post. If the USNA and the Midstore were part of the same entity, than products bought by the Academy from the Midstore would not be sold at a markup. What would be the point of selling marked up goods to yourself. Its not logical unless, as I have already laid out, they are distinctly separate. In contrast, any and all services that we received from MFSD (i.e. catered banquets) were determined at cost, because MFSD is a part of the Naval Academy, and not a separate entity who's goal is the bottom line.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill0510
Or, as seems to occur very frequently on these threads, some people just enjoy being disagreeable for the sake of seeing what kind of response can be elicited. I think it is called arguing for the sake of arguing. </p>
<p>Bill, I couldn't agree more. However, I don't think they are quite as bad on this thread as they are on a couple of the other Navy threads.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>uh, i think Bill was referring to you '69!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Maybe with more a more vigilant effort, we can get rid of them
[/quote]
</p>
<p>nah, we will just have to hit the "ignore" button a bit more!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Would anyone be arguing/discussing this ... again ... if one asked, "Should I get a calc book and study it in advance?"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>now THAT would be a good use of one's time!!!</p>
<p>Unlike most of you who are posting on this thread, Plebe Year has basically defined my life. It is probably the most important, or definitely one of the top two or three, positive influences on my life. In no way am I arguing for the sake of argument. The fact that you can even think so, demonstrates the chasm between us who are in the position to provide credible advice and those with limited prejudiced knowledge who should simply sit on the sidelines and observe. And furthermore, the fact that some of you, without knowing the system at all, can advise present midshipmen to 'cheat' is, in itself, totally irresponsible.</p>
<p>You're right, I wish I hadn't memorized the rank structure or basic information about military life before going into a military service academy. That just doesn't make any sense at all to know a little about what you're heading into! Heck, if I wouldn't have bought reef points I could of spent the entire summer studying it instead of helping out classmates with tips to memorizing or helping them with the stupid writing assignments we got every day. I severely doubt my ability to memorize or spew out information has been hampered by flipping through a freakin book in preperation for something that no one could tell me anything about.</p>
<p>Buy it or don't buy it - do what ever YOU think will help you, after all, all of the appointees come from different backgrounds, have different opinions and different styles of preparing for the unknown. There really is not "right" or "wrong" answer to this question and it certainly is not a moral issue. If you think it will help then by all means go for it, it you are unsure then maybe just familiarize yourself with Reef Points, if you see no point then leave it alone.</p>
<p>What I do recommend is that your parents get Brief Points. Many parental questions are answered there. Some of it may also help you.</p>
<p>1) Buying a copy of reef points for the sole intention of MEMORIZING the material beforehand is finding a loophole in the process. The point of plebe summer is to be stressful and to understand what failure is like. Trying to help shipmates (the time involved), memorization, rack races, etc. all are components that help to add to the stressful conditions...the point is to deal with stressful situations and failure. Yes, there are grand opportunities during PLEBE YEAR to sharpen these skills, but plebe summer is the first introduction and menus/chow calls don't start until at least midway thru plebe summer, whereas reef points starts on I-Day.</p>
<p>2) Buying a copy or reading rates online in order to UNDERSTAND what you are getting into and what is expected of you isn't a big deal. For example, the Articles of the Code of Conduct, which is a rate, but can be used to understand what is expected of military personnel. The same thing applies with the ranking structure. However, to sit down and read and memorize the Laws of the Navy for the sole purpose of "easing" your memorization over plebe summer is taking a shortcut.</p>
<p>In summary, review is okay...memorizing to ease your summer is not.</p>
<p>I, for one, bought a reef points back at summer seminar. I DO NOT intent to memorize anything out of there before Plebe Summer- because I do agree that that is finding a loophole, and, as USNA69 has pointed out, I want the system to work the way it is supposed to work for me because it is invaluable training. However, I would recommend buying reef points for a perspective mid to simply read- it's really interesting and they have a lot of great stuff about USNA in there as well as some excellent quotes. In addition, I would like to get to know the layout and there is some knowledge in there that I would simply like to know now (like the ranks/etc). I realize that you can find out a lot of this information in other ways than buying a reef points now, but it is really nice to have it all in a handy little book.</p>
<p>For the record, I didn't even know what Reef Points was until 2 weeks before I-day. I had never visited the Academy before I came for I-day. Trust me, going into plebe summer blind is what made me motivated to not fail. Before coming to the Academy, everyone is a superstar where they come from, and they strip that from you on the first day. In order to earn it back, you have to do it internally, and you'll never have the gratification of doing so if you don't put yourself through the training that's there for a reason or find a way around it.</p>
<p>For what it's worth, IMO, if you have extra time during the spring and June, it is MUCH better spent running and getting in the best shape of your life than trying to memorize Reef Points. </p>
<p>Also, if you think the Cadre won't recognize that you studied RP ahead of time, you're crazy. There are plenty of other things they can grill you on that you can't memorize until you get there. </p>
<p>Finally, agree with Jadler03 -- reading RP to learn about Navy history, get a sense of ranks, understand the what you're going to have to learn and live is great. But memorizing RP just isn't worth the effort. Run. Do sit ups. Run. Do push ups. Run. Much, much more productive use of your time and energy prior to I-Day.</p>
<p>For his 15th birthday, my plebe received a copy of "Reef Points 1956-1957" from his grandfather, USNA Class of 1960. He is a retired submarine captain, a war veteran, who was personally interviewed by Rickover before he could assume his command as part of the early "nuclear Navy". He holds many Naval honors and continues to be an active participant in USNA Alumni activities.</p>
<p>USNA 1969, you are disparaging this man - who gave his precious 50-year-old copy of "Reef Points" to his grandson - by suggesting that reading the book beforehand is "cheating."</p>
<p>I would suggest that you back off, sir; you are in territory you should not enter.</p>
<p>GN2011, I must ask you. Did his grandfather give him the reef points to study. I doubt so, because much has changed. Or did he give the book to your son as a memento to commemorate the passing down of a family tradition? Similiar to me giving my son my Naval Aviator wings and hoping that he is able to pass them on to his son or daughter.</p>
<p>Now, quite a few midshipmen and graduates agreed with my view on this matter. Are you suggesting that they too are disparaging and that they should also back off or is this tyrade directed solely at me? Far be it from reality for you to perceive the authority to tell midshipmen and graduates to back off a very valid and meaningful conversation.</p>
<p>Yes, I will revalidate. In my opinion, one who memorizes beforehand, as others have pointed out, are not reaping the intent of the reasoning behind the exercise. Yes, I do call that 'cheating'.</p>
<p>OBTW, I think what his grandfather did was great. Instead of memorizing from it, I hope it is tucked away in a very safe place. I wish I had the foresight to have kept mine.</p>
<p>Now boys. This is merely a matter of opinion to which there is only one answer ... mine. Or I should say, whoever decides. I don't think it's cheating because that would assume an explicit or implied policy. There's neither. </p>
<p>I'm fully confident 69er, while you must admit, can be a pain. But usually a very good one, and in this case, I'm confident he meant no offense to one's dod and his magnificent gesture. You/he has strongly held opinions, including this one. But that's it. This issue has been hashed, rehashed and then rehashed again. There's no right or wrong answer. Only right and wrong responses.</p>
<p>Let's make nice boys and girls and move ahead for the benefit of those young men and women being beckoned to a lofty calling. Ok?</p>
<p>What if you spent a few months memorizing Reef Points and they changed 50% of it. Would you have the ability to memorize the items in a more efficient and effective manner under alot more pressure. The key to why you have to memorize so much is not necessarily the knowledge, but the process. It is alot easier to memorize something over a 2-3 month period than lets say a 2-3 day period. Think about the real reason for Reef Points (besides all the great knowledge you will carry with you for the rest of your life: "How's the Cow") and then ponder why memorizing in advance might defeat the purpose. The time would be better spent working out.</p>
<p>The fault in the argument is that it assumes an amount of time that may be spent by candidates EITHER studying reef points OR working out.</p>
<p>It is likely *[is this waffling as defined by 69, form wherever he derives his definitions or merely making a statement baseded on what little is known? compared, for example, to making declarative statements based on little more than assumptions][\i], however, that candidates have time to do both. *[Assuming, of course, that candidates are buying RP w/ the intent of "studing" or "memorizing" it as compared to merely reading it for something to do.][\i] Thus, there is no reason fro a candidate to choose between teh two if they can, otherwise, manage to accomplish both. working out and studing RP.</p>