<p>Obviously I am not talking about the kid who plays videogames instead of doing homework. Nor am I talking about the kid with B's and C's throughout high school. I'm talking about the kid who doesn't fit in a box: e.g., the kid who is devoted to a particular interest, generally one that isn't given a grade. (I was really struck by Denise Pope Clark's research on this.) Or the kid who draws awed reviews from a teacher, but perhaps not from all teachers. You can continue to tell me that adcoms look at this and give it weight. Maybe it's true at MIT, as I said already I'm not familiar with the school and am not looking at it for any of my children. I continue to be skeptical of a school that thinks it's capturing a universe of creatively brilliant kids by allowing itself to look at those with 3.7 gpas and 2300 SATs. I don't think this does a single blessed thing to change the neurosis that infects so many high schools. It doesn't allow kids to pursue their "passions" because they're so busy taking all the necessary and challenging courses that will allow them to compete, not just at HYPSM but at a huge assortment of LACs and universities. </p>
<p>Similarly, I don't find it funny when the inevitable parent asks at a school's info session whether a kid should take a regular class and get an A or an accelerated class and get a B and the response is to take the challenging class and get an A. It's a cavalier, obnoxious response that does not acknowledge the high school experience. Of course I can't speak to any school but the one my kids attend but this is an absolutely crushing burden. Intelligence definitely does not equal "A"--teachers factor in things like class participation and other intangibles that aren't always in the possession of the brightest kid--and often it's the school's policy that no A's are given. </p>
<p>You are absolutely right Blossom. If I were in the adcom's shoes, I'd look long and hard at the kid who didn't do the work of high school. I do think good grades are one reasonably good indicator of success in college and they deserve to be weighed heavily. You're also right that I don't know anything about what it takes to get through college these days.</p>
<p>Why take a risk on a kid without the traditional metrics? Because sometimes that kid shows greater maturity and greater ability than the kid who argued over every grade and spent excessive mental energy constantly calculating his gpa, who took on few activities that didn't directly benefit his resume, who spent most of high school sleep-deprived and oversubscribed. Here's an example: I know of a kid who runs two school publications and who has won numerous school awards. He's very well regarded by teachers and is known for his passion and ability in the humanities. This is the kid who steps in to get things done when the others who have used the same clubs to their advantage on their college apps suddenly disappear and take absolutely no responsibility for the work of the club. But this kid doesn't get the top grades and his testing is good but not all 750+. I don't mean to suggest that he's a middling student with grades limited to B's and C's. My dd thinks this kid is brilliant. Personally, I think he is better qualified for any school he chooses than many of those with higher grades. I have no doubt that he will be successful wherever he chooses to go to school and I don't, for a minute, think that a challenging college curriculum will be too much for him. So where does he belong? Do you think an adcom should take a risk on such a kid regardless of the thousands with more carefully polished resumes? </p>
<p>I have the misfortune of living in a particularly insane part of the country with many, many, many bright kids vying for admission to good schools. (Leave HYPSM out of it.) So from my limited point of view, the insanity is everywhere and the kids are all afflicted. I really worry about the mental health of these kids and I've been on a 4 year search to find all these wonderful schools that admit most who apply. This, by the way, is my true focus in this college admissions search. Still, it doesn't stop me from being disgusted by the frenzy.</p>
<p>On your 4 year search, you must have read Colleges That Change Lives. There are lots of great schools out there that admit most who apply. Of the 20 schools we looked at, 7 would fit that category. My son is applying to 2 that accept over 60%, 2 that accept over 40% and 6 that accept 36% or fewer. He's not frazzled and gets enough sleep. His HS only has 6 APs and you can't start taking them until Jr. year.</p>
<p>One of the problems is a lot of kids (and parents) aren't willing to look outside the Northeast. There is a real crunch here, but it's less true in other parts of the country. I suggest looking beyond your backyard.</p>
<p>Yup, I've read it. So has every other parent at dd's school. From what I've heard, there aren't many who are still exclusively stuck on the northeast.</p>
<p>I'm happy to read that your son is not frazzled. It's very encouraging. My dd is not the type to become obsessed with this sort of stuff nor is she set on a top tier northeast school. Still, she's become extremely unsettled this year, almost to the point of fragility. This is coming from her peers and the relentless college app talk.</p>
<p>It's hard not to buy into that when your peers are obsessed with it. But if you can keep the clear parental message that helps her find good schools and good matches at different levels of selectivity, you can get her through this storm. I get a lot of my anxiety and obsession out on these threads so my DS doesn't need to listen to it.</p>
<p>Shoshi: Yes, Brown's admissions philosophy has shifted in the last couple years, as reflected in the data you linked to. It is definitely putting more emphasis on high board scores than it used to, and making fewer exceptions for kids who are not good test takers or ranked in the top 5 percent of their class. It may still accept quirky kids, but they pretty much have to score higher than 700 on the SATs. However, not many people are aware of this shift, and still encourage kids with relatively lower SATs to apply.</p>
<p>I do agree with some of your comments, although I think MIT may to some degree be the wrong school to complain about. Your point about the trickle-down effect is I think the most valid. I keep hearing people tell kids to look beyond HYP or their LAC equivalent. The problem is that the acceptance rate at many other schools has gotten lower. It's harder to get into Vassar now than it was to get into Brown when I went in the 1970s. It's just the new reality of the college admissions game.</p>
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This is coming from her peers and the relentless college app talk.
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<p>Why do I get the feeling of deja vu all over again? Is it the fault of the adcoms who can pick and choose from thousands of applicants students who have shown they can do the work and are also outside-the-box thinkers? Or parents and students who feel they are in competition for the same spots at a handful of colleges and seem to know everyone else's stats, ECs, and list of colleges? Neither my S knew any of these things about their friends. No one talked about SATs, grades, colleges, etc...</p>
<p>I'm sure lots of colleges would prefer a 15 on the AIME to a 2400 on the SAT.</p>
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<p>This is certainly an understatement. Even with a 8 on AIME, the top tech colleges would be happy. The 2400 girl has AMC12 score of 122.5, which is really quite good. However we do not know her AIME.</p>
<p>Only Liming Luo and Courtney Sachs really impress me. Not that my stats are any better than the rest of them, but Ive seen much more intimidating applicants on CC.</p>
<p>3/4 of those kids aren't in range, statistically. Yet they all have great ECs..
My cynical side tells me they did this on purpose.. after all, assuming if they do a follow up in the spring, it'll sell more if more kids get rejected!
Also, I LOVE the counselor's vague evaluations!</p>
<p>I have talked to my DS1 about the admissions and competitive insanity -- he is at one of those high-intensity schools, so he lives with it every day. Just talking about it seems to help relieve the pressure, to the extent he feels it. He knows plenty of kids who feel the pressure to be more than just stellar students. I've gotten pressure from some of these kids' parents about "what did you do with DS1 regarding..." "How did you get him into..." "He didn't take the SAT in 7th grade??" (I did nothing. He applied. The chips fell where they fell. We provide computer access, books and chauffeur services.)</p>
<p>DS1 learned a LONG time ago to listen to his own drummer -- he has always been offbeat in his interests, opinions and (dare I say it) passions, even when it was isolating and lonely because noone else knew/understood what he was doing. He <em>knew</em> what he wanted, and went with it. Over time, he's felt his outlook has been validated. </p>
<p>DS1 has MUCH to say about this whole college admission process and has blogged about it at times. His physics teacher (who is an amazing, philosophical guy) has been encouraging him to write more about education and math after DS wrote a couple of essays in class. He is much more concerned about what he'll get to do in college than which college it happens to be.</p>
<p>One of the things that stuck out when I read the article was the number of kids doing research. The resumes were chock full of obscure biological terms, but with their mostly unimpressive stats, I wonder how valuable their research actually is. Like community service ten years ago, this could be the new "hot" activity.</p>
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The resumes were chock full of obscure biological terms, but with their mostly unimpressive stats, I wonder how valuable their research actually is.
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A-hah. I see where you are going. We are missing an importatnt data point. We need to see the parents' resumes.;)</p>
<p>There were a bunch of great applicants in that story. I thought Courtney Sachs and the New Jersey kid have the best chances by far.</p>
<p>And about Einstein, his high school teacher in Italy said he was a genius in mathematics and physics. Also, he was absolutely amazing at playing the violin. People say he's a "late bloomer," but, honestly, he was very brilliant at a young age.</p>
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Research assistant for a Ph.D. candidate in the government department at Harvard.
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<p>I wonder how you can possibly get this if you live in New York. I'd really be interested in helping someone with their research (at any college) for history or politics. Anyone have an idea on how this can be done?</p>
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I'm happy to read that your son is not frazzled. It's very encouraging. My dd is not the type to become obsessed with this sort of stuff nor is she set on a top tier northeast school. Still, she's become extremely unsettled this year, almost to the point of fragility. This is coming from her peers and the relentless college app talk.
[/quote]
Shoshi, I think the peer influences are just so strong that it is hard to believe that it is different elsewhere. But it is. At my DS's large decent public H.S., kids are NOT talking about their college apps. DS doesn't have a clue where most of his friends are applying. Of the ones that he knows, all are applying to big state U's, some as automatic admits, some to the lesser-known ones where they will be accepted for sure. He does know one kid applying to 15 schools, but he and all his friends think it is hilarious that someone would do that - and they chock it up to parental pressures. So things can be different and much easier in other parts of the states. My son does have a reach school - but he/we are not sure that it would end up a better choice than schools where he is guaranteed acceptance.<br>
JMHO, keep reiterating to your DD that college acceptances are not a measure of her worth, and that she has many, many options and much time to make her choices. She can always take a gap year, travel, start at one school and transfer to another, get a job, go parttime, etc. Let her know that her decisions are not irreversible, and her path is not set in stone. Sometimes I think that our kids would be much happier if they had more of the "flower-power" mindset - you know, make love not war, peace, man, que sera, follow your bliss, don't worry -get happy, go with the flow, whatever floats your boat, live for the moment, etc. Kids today seem so pressured to choose a linear career path and follow it to the end - achieving material wealth at all costs. They don't have to know what they want when they start college!</p>
<p>I say, Who started this merry-go-round and where can we get off? </p>
<p>This whole attitude of stress, pressure, push, push, push is so unhealthy for kids. Maybe there are a few who thrive on stress, but most kids don't. </p>
<p>And all this absurd pressure...for an illusive place in an illusive class at an elite college, one where the colleges admitedly could fill two more classes with equally qualified applicants to those they admitted? Not being admitted says nothing about the student, their potential, their drive or ambition, and yet most will walk around feeling like a failure, since they weren't admitted to HYP.</p>
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Research assistant for a Ph.D. candidate in the government department at Harvard.
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</p>
<p>This probably means that the graduate student in question is the kid's older cousin, who sends him lists of stuff that he wants photocopied at the main branch of the New York Public Library or at some New York City government office.</p>
<p>The thing about "research" is that you can take really unsophisticated tasks that would be considered utterly routine if performed in an office and make them sound exotic and sophisticated to people who have never done the same thing. But in many types of research, only the design of the project and the writeup of the results take any truly high-level skills. The rest of the work may be very routine.</p>
<p>That's true Marian, but your still getting exposed to research and progress I would think. Its probably like volunteering for a campaign for a canidate in politics. You aren't doing much besides calling people, though you are still experiencing the process. </p>
<p>But I understand what you mean, I guess he has an advantage being pretty close to the NYPL over there in New York. </p>
<p>I was wondering if maybe I should approach, in email, one of the professors in our local state college if he needs any help with research. Not sure how to go about asking him though.</p>