Agreed @bridgenail. I’m trying to brave ourselves as well. With numbers like 17 jazz vocalists auditioning for what I’ve heard are 2 spots at NEC the odds are not in our favor. We also did some ciphering and calculated about 130 kids give or take auditioning for 12 spots in CAM at Frost. I have no idea how many they take in MADE. Jazz voice there I believe takes around 7-8 and I’m pretty sure somewhere between 30+ auditioned. I know someone mentioned numbers in an earlier post and the numbers are daunting. That being said, my thoughts are if D isn’t one selected for a particular school then it’s not a fit for her either. They are looking for a particular style etc that she isn’t. So not a bad thing when you look at it that way. Keep the faith. They will all Land in a good place that appreciates who they are and what they offer. Like your Colorado story @oboemom65 . Sounds like a beautiful fit to me.
I have heard that Julliard doesn’t have the best retention rate. One of my friend’s sons was attending there and has left, partially because he has a spot touring with Les Miz but even when that is done he is not going back
When I first saw the number of people auditioning at Chapman, I decided I wouldn’t investigate these things anymore Too many variables to worry about. It made my experience at audition day much more enjoyable. However, while at UCSB we were told the undergraduate and graduate vocal program is about 30 people combined. One parent kept repeating it and appeared astonished. I just mentally took myself to a peaceful place…and tuned them out. It was easy because it was in Santa Barbara.
And I have an interesting question to post to you brilliant parents, that cropped up this weekend while we were at FSU. Especially as we will be advancing to the next part of the process…“the decision and chosing the right school”.
I’ll write the question then tell you the story behind it.
The question is “conservatory” vs. “university with a conservatory/great music school”? And I’m sure its covered on other threads but I feel you guys are the real deal so I’ll get sensible answers that I can trust and believe
So my daughter has been pretty adamant (like her brothers before her) that she wanted the latter as she didn’t want to be just with music kids as (a) they tend to be weird and (b) she wants to make connections with people from all avenues and © she wants a real college experience in addition to great music training and connections
While we were away we met this young man who is the boyfriend of one of my daughters friends. I think he is now 19 but he is literally a prodigy and was accepted into Coburn when he was 14. He plays the same instrument as my daughter and I will say she was a little intimidated as he was quite critical of some things she was playing during her warm up for her audition. But that part is fine as she is a tough kid and she let it roll off her.
But he told her categorically that she did not want to go to a “university” and had to go to a “conservatory” because it was the only way she would make the connections to be successful in her chosen career and that the other option was a waste of time. Through going through this insane audition process with 4 kids, I was always led to believe that as an undergrad it was about the connection and fit with the teacher as they will make you the great musician you need to be, and then you go to big names and conservatories for grad school. his take was that you don’t want grad school but you want to be able to make it straight form undergrad
And this young man is no longer a music major. He gave it up early (not surprised with being thrown to it as a kid) but still plays (exceedingly well!!) and seems to know all the “right people”
While I know my daughter makes her own decisions, it did make her put Peabody higher up her preference list (although it depends if she even gets in there…LOL!!), but her fave to date is Vandy
So, what do you all think? I can’t wait to read!!!
@NYsaxmom We really didn’t know prior to auditions but post-audition my D has firmly fallen into the “I want an actual college experience” group. First criteria, major university. Second, is there a teacher she likes. Third, can she envision herself leaving home and living there. She is concerned that all music, all the time, will be a problem in the long run. She also wants club activities, friends with different interests, and, dare I say it, a wider opportunity/selection for dating.
LOL…I hadn’t even thought of that dating part. Oh Lordy!!!
My son wanted a university and didn’t apply to stand alone conservatories (he did Peabody but applied dual degree to JHU), and Berklee for fun. Granted, the bass world is small, but he is already quite connected. I can name several of the tippy top bass people at universities, and I’m not all that knowledgeable. Personally I believe you should go where you think you will thrive - there is no single path to success in music.
Artists can be quite opinionated, and you know the saying about opinions…
Personally, I lean toward the “college is a time of discovery” camp. At 18 you just don’t know what you don’t know about what’s out there. The notion that going to a university is “a waste of time” because it distracts from starting your professional career as quickly as possible is the kind of singleminded focus I’d expect from somebody who would choose a conservatory. Surprise, surprise that the conservatory kid thinks this way. For him, it may be totally valid, but I wouldnt take it as gospel.
In the end, I think your D will need to listen to all the opinions out there, give them due consideration, then take an afternoon and go sit under a tree somewhere and search out her own feelings. Her life, her path, nobody else’s.
And yay…another acceptance. University of Denver. Apparently she has been awarded a scholarship but they won’t tell her until mid March
My D is in the conservatory camp at the moment. All she wants to do is study music and the fact that any of the schools she is looking at involve a liberal arts degree is a complete turnoff. I remind her that the only school that had been on her list that didn’t require that was Berklee but she took it off her list so a Music school and liberal arts education she will get, like it or not. That being said, aside from her ardent desire to study Music and nothing but Music so help her God, I personally think that her turnoff with an actual University stems from us living next door to one her entire life and being on campus all the time for football season etc. She’s been there and done that. She wants a change of scenery. Fortunately, as big as the folks at Miami think their university is, it is about the size of our local community college in comparison to our university here that she’s used to so at least it doesn’t feel so much like “college” there to her. Plus Frost is separated somewhat making it feel almost stand alone as well which helps. But she loved NEC too. I’m not sure how she can get a feel for a place in a 3 hour visit without sitting in on a class but 17 year old girls know everything. 8-| It’s going to be very interesting to see how this all shakes out. At the moment I wouldn’t place Vegas odds on any one of them! Yikes!
Sorry I don’t think I was much help. Other than validating the teenage girl who knows everything situation.
Thanks @SpartanDrew I think Boulder is her fit school on many dimensions.
The conservatory vs university debate is interesting. D only applied to large universities, but the front runner, Boulder, is a conservatory style, while the others have more gen eds. I like the idea of taking some classes outside of music and will encourage her to look for electives that interest her. At the schools where she’s admitted she won’t need to many gen eds because many of them will be covered by AP credit, so she’ll have room to take classes just because they’re interesting.
Is the question standalone conservatory (e.g., Juilliard, NEC, Colburn, Curtis, MSM, CIM) versus music school/conservatory within a larger university (e.g., Jacobs, Shepherd, Frost, Thornton, Oberlin, Blair)? Or is it BM program versus BA program? If the latter, I think there is some merit to the notion that pursuing a BA while trying to prepare for a music career is a higher degree of difficulty. There are certainly professional musicians, including some notable ones, who did a BA rather than a performance degree as undergrads, but you have to be able to find the music resources outside of school to make it work. And it’s a lot of work. If the former, however, I think the notion is laughable. Some of the top performance programs in the country are housed in music schools/conservatories that are part of larger universities, including the ones listed in the parenthetical above.
Oh, yes @NYCMusicDad and @jazzpianodad !!! Each and every “version” of Stand Alone Conservatory, University with a School of Music and College/University with attached Conservatory is different. Different access to non music students and classes, different curriculum requirements, different rigor (academically AND musically). You really have to thoroughly explore each and every program! There is, however, a huge difference between, say, Curtis Institute, where around 100 musicians of varying ages are doing nothing but music in a few buildings in downtown Philadelphia, and UNT…insert adjectives… or Berklee…insert other adjective. My D really loves having non music friends and super digs the “smart, interested learning” environment at Oberlin, and her bestie is a non musician; but feels she’s getting the best of both worlds studying in a world class Conservatory with top notch musicians and faculty and is making excellent musician friends, too, of course. (Plus Oberlin is famous for having arts-interested College kids.) She finds it very nice to sometimes get away from the intensity of Conservatory life. Making sure she didn’t have a ton of non music gen eds was central to her decision making. There are SO MANY GREAT SCHOOLS out there, each with its own personality.
The BA versus BM discussion is occurring in our home as well. My D doesn’t seem to think it will matter. Two of her favorite programs are BA programs. And two other favorites are BM programs. One of the BA programs is a BA at entrance and then after the two year common music curriculum is followed, you have to apply your junior year for the BM. When I brought this to her attention, she thought it was a non-issue. @SpartanDrew Also, validating the teenage girl who knows everything situation.
@jazzsaxmom - I nearly spit out my coffee when I read about your daughter’s friend’s boyfriend. Not surprised that he went to Colburn. Our daughter auditioned for the residential high school academy (classical) at Colburn last year. She made it past the pre-screen and we flew to LA for the audition. They had no basses in the Academy so we thought the odds were good. The bass instructor there (for both high school and college) said that he played her pre-screen tape to his friend (principal bassist for the Cincinatti Symphony) because he was so wowed. When we got there, I took one look at the prodigies that were there and thought - OMG - I don’t want this for my daughter - it is not her. I pointed that out to her. They were robots. No heart in their playing. I can so understand why he’s not involved in music anymore. It seemed like the kind of place that might suck the joy of playing from you. Soooo much competition and no time for anything but practicing (I would imagine it’s like Curtis in that respect). Our daughter didn’t get in - nor the only other bassist that auditioned (my daughter has since become her friend and she is amazing - you may have seen her at NEC and Julliard in the last week if anyone was there). Our daughter now says that had she gotten in that she would have dropped out by now and that there is no way that she wants to go to a small conservatory like Colburn (she goes to the community school at Colburn and practices there every night). However - she also doesn’t want to go to a conservatory within a school because she hates academics and doesn’t want to go to a school “with a football team because that’s just weird”. I feel like she is excluding too many places and generalizing far too much (but I guess that will help shorten our audition tour She has it in her head that she only wants to go to Berklee - which I think she’s built up in her head. Time will tell. Did any of your kids change their minds about conservatory vs. university setting once they toured them?
As others have said, there is a lot of variation among schools, but generally speaking a BM program will be 2/3-3/4 music classes, whether at a stand alone conservatory, a conservatory on a liberal arts campus, or a school of music within a university. (And a BA will be 1/4-1/3 music for majors.) I really don’t understand the “prodigy” friend’s comments. Perhaps he doesn’t know that much about the alternatives to a freestanding conservatory. The BM programs at all of these options could provide the needed connections, excellent training, and high level peers.
The main difference, I think, between a freestanding conservatory and one that is part of a larger institution is that students at the latter can house with, eat with and take gen eds with non-music students. For some that is important, for others, not. Of course, within all these categories, there are he differences in vibe (and more subtle differences in programs). Curtis couldn’t be more different from Berklee, for instance. Berklee is so big and varied that it may draw some of the students who would otherwise want to do a BM in a university. (Curtis, like Juilliard, is rarefied and will draw students who want that level of selectivity, focus and training.)
One comment about the Juilliard retention rate. Generally, students who make it into Juilliard are already good enough to be functioning as professionals. For a field like dance, the undergrad years may be best spent performing, since the best years for dance are young. This may be true of musical theater too, and music, for some: I don’t really know.
For Juilliard and actually for Berklee too, I used to hear that it was a sign of failure to finish. That meant you weren’t good enough to make it earlier. Times have changed. Degrees have become more important to people, for many reasons.
For one, the arts have become more academic because people in music, dance and other arts can be funded while still in school. Hence more doctoral students in dance, for instance. A classical composer needs to do a PhD to have the time to develop a career while still being paid, however minimally.
I certainly know top classical level instrumentalists who didn’t even major in music, but have solo careers and are doing well. I also know an accomplished jazz musician who quit after a year to do gigs and is doing quite well. These may be outliers of course. Most want the training of a BM, or a BA with a performance component at the very least. And then to continue with their artistic development, some may even stay in school for years after undergrad, with funding.
@tripletmama I think you’ve mentioned that your D auditioned for the Berklee 5 week this summer? Did she audition for the jazz workshop scholarship I hope? I think the 5 week is an excellent way to get a feel for Berklee for college and either solidify her desire to attend there, as it has for @diglass D, or remove it from consideration as it did for mine. While it’s not the exact same as college from the perspective of the 5 week being filled with high school kids from all over the world, the classes, the faculty and the overall vibe are very similar to college life there. I highly recommend kids doing it for two reasons. The first being what I had mentioned above and the second, it gives kids a rare opportunity for “two shots on goal”. Rising seniors can audition for scholarship to the college at the end of the program and the scholarship winners are announced at the big blowout concert at the end. Whether they are offered scholarship or not, they can go back during the fall/winter and audition again, either to try for some scholarship or try for more scholarship. And if your kid is offered a scholarship at the 5 week they don’t have to audition again. Just submit their app and they are in!
Yes, my daughter’s opinion of school options was formed during auditions. She applied to a free standing conservatory, a smaller university, an art school, and several large universities. Her lean towards the large university is directly related to her on campus audition and time spent on the campuses. I also noticed she seemed more relaxed at the large university auditions, received more positive feedback, and typically left the audition feeling good about how she performed.
Here are a few comments to add:
1.) Never take advice from a 19 year old boy…especially if you are a girl. Most likely he doesn’t have your best interest in mind.
2.) Whatever school you choose, will be the best particularly freshman year. After that it may be more up and down but you will still defend it (since you have spent a lot of money on it). Still it will be good.
3.) And on a more serious note, the biggest challenge for my D after school has not been getting music contracts. That is working. It’s making a living on the side or in between. Most VP contracts last 2, 4 or 6 months or a year if lucky but then you are “unemployed” again. My D keeps getting contracts but not are all full-time. Starting in May, she has to get a side job. Thankfully she can go back to her old job during college. She’d prefer doing something else but she’s in a different city now…so how does she interview (and she’s had to cancel 2 auditions due to her current employment too)? So…when looking at “college”, just remember that “making a living” solely from music is going to be VERY difficult right out of college (if ever). So…should you explore other areas of interests during college? If you want to eat and pay rent, YES! I would also say to balance summer programs with work experience as well.
The summer before my D started her MM, she did NO summer program and felt like she would lose ground. But I wouldn’t pay the very high fee for her to be in the chorus of La Boheme at a fancy program. There are no mezzo part in La Boheme and there was no money offered to her so you could read the tea leaves that she would be in the chorus (she had been in the chorus twice at IU). Instead she got a job…that is the same job that has said they would love to have her back after a one year absence. She’s not going back a happy camper (still grateful)…but it will give her time and motivation to find something else (that she can do while performing…another challenge).
Still she has a college degree and all those “critical thinking” skills … and honestly as a parent … I’m not that concerned. For me, that is the biggest power of the college degree (BS, BM, BA or MM), my peace of mind. She can get employment if needed. She won’t end up living under a bridge. She has every tool she needs to figure it out.
I love that post so much @bridgenail! Especially #1!!! Spot on haha!