The Tours, The Journey and the Decisions moving forward

College Majors Music Major
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Hi all! This forum has been such a source of amazing information for me for my D. Having a S who is now a college junior in engineering, walking down the music school and audition path has been extremely daunting. Especially when looking at the price tags of the schools that interest us.

D is a jazz vocalist and singer/songwriter who wants to pursue vocal performance and songwriting in college. She is a rising senior so we are finishing college tours and starting to think about the road ahead with regard to SAT’s (next week), audition prescreen videos, and the entire application process with auditions and eventual (hopeful) admission and scholarships. I have lots of questions still. One of my best sources of information has been @GoForthJournal but I don’t want to clog up the feed there with all of my questions and comments so I thought I’d start a similar thread as to what GoForth started last year around this time. I hope other parents of rising seniors join in!

We are currently in Miami and finished up a visit at Frost. We loved it! Prior to this visit Berklee had been D’s top choice but we’ve heard a lot of negative things about Berklee so I was hoping to get more info from people in the know. We have heard many people comment that Berklee will accept a lot of students then start to cut them as the years go on. Is this true? Or is it more of a natural “weeding out” process of students that aren’t at the levels of others and paying full tilt in tuition? Honestly, the people that have made the less than stellar comments about Berklee have been the ones running the tours of competitive schools so I thought this would be the best place to get feedback from people who have experience there. I know of a lot of Berklee students that are thriving there and love it so it’s been interesting to hear other comments.

Finally, during our tour at Frost it was mentioned by someone in the program that “all” students admitted to Frost get a scholarship of at least 40% tuition. Anyone out there that can confirm this? I believe everyone I saw on some other threads that were admitted to Frost had scholarship of at least 20K/year.

Thanks to all of the parents out there that can comment, advise and assist as we move through this journey over the next year!

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@SpartanDrew , can’t speak to Berklee but my S18 is considering Frost for classical voice. In fact he is applying for their summer program so hopefully we will get lots of intel this summer! We have seen Blair at Vandy (perfect, except for price tag), and next week hit Shepherd at Rice. I’ve been leaving him alone about it recently because he is in the middle of 6 shows as Jean Valjean in Les Mis. But after that it will be college focus time.

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I don’t know much about jazz…but I do know that for every program out there, there is a parent who would NEVER send their child to THAT school. Or a student who would NEVER attend THAT program.

I do think you should listen to the reputation of the school. If you keep hearing the same thing over and over, there is probably some truth to it. But at the same time, it will be hard to find a program that you don’t hear a thing or two about…so in the end you have to “pick your poison”. My D went to a UG school with a reputation for not being the best for UG students…meaning they could get ignored…it was really a grad program to many. We were OK with that bc D was still young and wanted to pursue some theater which was possible at that program. Well, my D go swept into the opera program and got cast a lot and never got to do any theater. Oh well. So much for reputations in our case. Still for some more popular voice types (i.e., sopranos) it seemed to be particularly true. So keep researching and asking and in the end you’ll be educated about the pros and cons for each school.

Everyone talks a bit of “smack”. I remember my D mentioning J-tard (Juillard) right after she was … rejected.

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I get the impression that Berklee is a wonderful school for the right students at the right time in their lives. This impression is from S and H both knowing several Berklee dropouts or transfers. S also knows one current student who loves it so far. I haven’t heard that Berklee specifically weeds out students. A lot decide it isn’t for them and leave voluntarily though.

The people S and H know that dropped out don’t seem to have lingering hard feelings about the place, nor have I heard any smack talk, (except it can be “vibey” lol). It just was the wrong environment for them at that point in their personal and musical development. Or they couldn’t afford to continue.

It seems that a student who has a lot of skill and talent, but hasn’t really found their unique voice yet might have a tough time not getting lost in the crowd unless they were lucky enough to have special interest taken in them by faculty. It isn’t, by reputation at least, a nurturing place for undergrad unless you have the assertiveness, self assurance and abilities to demand attention. Or the drive and determination to keep pushing your hardest without the need for much in the way of feedback and external direction. I think those attributes come a little later than age 18 for many people although they may not realize it until later!

After more visits and more feedback, you and your D will almost certainly have a good idea of which schools will best suit her needs, and feel right to her.

Just curious…is your D more of a jazz vocalist or more of a singer-songwriter? Is she a jazz singer/songwriter or popular music? What do you think she will want to major in? That can make a difference in the schools you look at. Some jazz programs and instructors don’t have a tremendous amount of patience for rockers-at-heart, (or pop or country or R&B), and expect an intense focus on the jazz tradition. Others are more flexible.

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Just curious, what do people mean when they say Berklee “cuts” people? Failing them at juries? That sounds like they are saying they are kicked out, which is unlikely. I would be skeptical of some of the gossip you hear. Though certainly keep it in the back of your mind for your own evaluations.

Berklee just merged with Boston Conservatory, increasing its already vast resources. It also now has a double degree program with Harvard. NEC and Northeastern are literally a few blocks away.

I have heard that you have to be able to carve your individual path at Berklee, mainly because there is so much there. For a jazz vocalist and a singer/songwriter who presumably writes songs in another genre, it might be perfect. Less chance of being pigeon-holed at a school like Berklee (and a few others, Frost is one).

I have sometimes worked alongside some Berklee grads in a music program for hospice. They said that historically, it was a badge of honor to leave Berklee. Graduating from Berklee mainly was a sign you weren’t good enough. The really talented ones left because they were already gaining professional success, so staying to graduate meant you were not successful.

This has been changing over the years of course, as the arts world changes and leans toward even more degrees.

I don’t know much about jazz, VP or songwriting so will otherwise step back and read your journal much as I did with GoForth :slight_smile:

ps I admit I love Boston, great city to be in when you are 18- despite the snow at times (like April 1!).

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My son is at Berklee, just finishing up his first year. He’s a jazz saxophonist and just declared his performance major. He’s actually not one of those who had a lifelong dream to go to Berklee; chose it mostly for a particular professor and because he really liked Boston.

There are negatives, for sure, but I think they’re more annoying for the paying parents than the students. The school is disorganized, communication is terrible, dorms are so-so and expensive (significantly more than neighbor schools like Northeastern, NEC, Emerson.) Some of the classroom teachers sound borderline; non-music electives are basically a joke. Student services are almost non-existent – no medical clinic, no sports, etc.

I think that the best music at Berklee happens outside of school proper. The students are constantly making music on their own, in groups, projects, etc. They are playing and producing each other’s recordings, collaborating on videos, movies. I think this is the one big advantage of a large music student population. One of my S’s close friends from HS is attending NEC and the two of them are downright giddy over the abundance of great musicians to play with – and they’re especially amazed at the level of singing. Berklee has a stunning number of great singers. I think if I were an aspiring singer/songwriter, that’s exactly where I’d want to be, even though the competition would be daunting.

I do think that it takes a certain level of confidence to thrive at Berklee and I think it really helps if you’re self-directed and have an idea of where you want to go. My S has struggled with some of the non-music stuff – like not knowing how to test out of classes, or what to do when he got sick – but he’s always known what he wants to accomplish in music, and Berklee is great for those connections. He accepts every gig, every chance to play.

One thing about teachers. Freshmen are assigned private teachers after auditioning the first week of school; they do not get to choose. From then on, they have to self-advocate and audition their way to other teachers if they want. My S auditioned his way into an ensemble with a director he wanted to meet the first week of school. He just got his dream teacher for next semester.

In many ways, I think Berklee is more reflective of how the music industry works than “college”. I don’t think it’s for everyone, but I think if your aspiration is a performance career in jazz/popular music, you will graduate with the tools you need and the connections that will help get you there.

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Such great commentary and advice already! Much appreciated! @indeestudios and @compmom, I’m hard pressed to say if D is more of a jazz vocalist than singer/songwriter. Up until our visit at Frost where she had 2 visits with the director of jazz voice where she got some amazing warm fuzzies, she hadn’t really planned to pursue a major in jazz voice. Yet what Frost offers is a major in that and a minor in their CAM program which is songwriting. I think she would like to infuse more jazzy sounds into her music. She is NOT a Pop singer. Makes that very clear to me. Does not like the typical poppy sound out there. She loves Berklee…and Frost now as well. Both very different. Like “apples and broccoli” (a quote from a Frost faculty member). The vocal jaZ director (who studied under D’s vocal coach and is almost a clone of her) made her really strongly reconsider a major in jazz voice. I think if Frost is the choice she would major in that there with a minor in songwriting. If Berklee was the choice it would be a straight performance major but the problem is based on info we got there last year, minorinh in songwriting isn’t an option.

@ScreenName48105 thanks so much for the perspective from your son. It’s very helpful. The comment about “a lot of fantastic singers” is commensurate with what D’s vocal coach had mentioned, 1000 vocalists there. (Maybe that’s an exaggeration) I’m not sure D will get the focused attention there that she would at Frost. I guess that has its pluses and minuses from the perspective of everything you’d mentioned in your comments. Less personalized attention means you’d better step up and claw your way into the ensembles and gigs and programs. Much like in the real world. Does your son feel like it’s a collaborative environment or more of a competitive one? FYI, D spent time at Berklee last summer and loved it and is going back for the 5 week this summer. She will audition for admission and scholarship (hopefully) at the end.

@bridgenail I cracked up with your comments. Specifically J-Tard! Hahahah!!!

Thanks all! I look forward to the journey and hearing from others with either advice or questions/comments from their kids walking the same path. It’s going to be an interesting year!

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My sense is that Berklee isn’t so focused on “majors” and “minors” (unless you want to do something more specialized like music therapy.) Many kids have 2-3 “majors” and my impression is that these declarations open up access to additional courses and have some proficiency requirements. They also don’t distinguish between “jazz” and “popular music” as a skillset but treat them mostly as just different genres of music. When I look at the core skillset in Berklee’s “system”, I consider them “jazz” skills – emphasis on solfege, theory, harmony. Professional musicians need to be able to walk onto a gig, be able to sightread, improvise, play with just a lead sheet – and do so in any genre at a professional level. I think this is the Berklee model.

Also, don’t get me wrong, there’s definitely plenty of opportunity for personalized attention – it’s just that you have to figure out how to make that happen in a way that works for you. My S didn’t particularly like his assigned first semester teacher. He asked around other saxophone students, talked to the department head, went to see a few teachers who had openings and moved to another teacher for his 2nd semester. She’s not one of the “star” teachers but he really liked her and feels she’s really helped his playing. She was instrumental in him going ahead with declaring his major this semester. But through all this jockeying, there was no adviser or school guidance.


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Does your son feel like it's a collaborative environment or more of a competitive one?

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I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive things. It’s competitive, certainly. It’s a big student body, all musicians, and the reality is that not everyone is going to graduate to a music career. But I think Berklee is all about collaboration; my S plays sessions with others almost as much as he practices on his own. I think that’s also the nature of popular music compared to classical. My S has participated in a lot of projects (e.g. recordings, videos) and traveled for gigs (he’s been to D.C. once and NYC twice), all because other students recommended him, and only one of those gigs was “jazz”. Those jazz skills come in really handy.

That said, there are definitely STARS at the school. There’s an elite group who are often off-campus because they’re performing and touring at a national level. One of my S’s friends spent winter break in LA playing/performing/recording with seriously big industry names.

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My son is in his 4th semester at Berklee. He is not a vocalist but plays guitar. Vocalist and guitarist do make up about 50% of population which makes acceptance rates in these two areas far below normal acceptance rates. My son can’t imagine himself anywhere else. This is not to say that the school is perfect, it certainly is not, but there is no such perfect place. In terms of weeding out, I believe this does happen naturally. A lot of students decide Berklee is not for them and/or music is more of a hobby. It is not an easy environment and I think a lot of students don’t realize the expectations going in. A lot of students also can’t afford to stay more than a couple of years. As with any school, it is what you make of it. There certainly isn’t a hand holding environment and to be successful, you need to be a self-starter for sure. There are plenty of resources to help students but your student will have to search them out. Good luck in your journey. I run a Berklee Parent Group. Private message me for info if you would like to join.

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@ScreenName48105 and @rockinmomab thanks for the scoop on Berklee! Did either of your kids get any scholarship? All of this will be mute for D is they don’t offer her any $$. We have a friend locally who’s son just graduated from Berklee in guitar. He didn’t get in on his first audition so went to community college, took lessons, upped his game and auditioned again the next year and got in but without any scholarship and his family payed the full bill. Choke! That’s not happening here. Did either of your kids do the summer 5 week? I’m hoping that will help D with the audition and possible scholarship money.

@rockinmomab if D ends up at Berklee I will for sure ask to be added to the parents group. Thank you!

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Yes, Berklee can give nice merit awards - at least they did 2 years ago based on my son’s and friends’ experience. And most had not done the summer program.

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Thanks @drummergirl. I’m wondering how much they give to vocalists and guitarists since there is an abundance of them. All part of the journey as we head down this path of discovery I guess!

Right now, D will be applying to Berklee, Frost and Thornton. Possibly NYU but between the Fit and Finances and the fact that I’ve heard they give zero in merit $$ it’s doubtful. SO, a very short list at the moment for her for colleges which is frightening. We have no safety school. If anyone has any suggestions on that I’m all ears. The only safety is Michigan State because that’s where we are and hubby is on staff so we get tuition discount. But it doesn’t offer anything musically that she wants.

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@SpartanDrew, yes, Berklee offered my son a merit scholarship that covers half of his tuition. They also gave him a grant that covers most of the other half. They do have presidential scholarships that are full rides but I think most of the winners are non-guitar instrumentalists.

NYU is notorious for not giving any merit. Thornton itself doesn’t give much in merit but USC is generally good with FA and academic merit is also possible.

I’m surprised you say that about MSU. Rodney Whitaker is, I think, a wonderful educator. My son has played for him for various events and really likes him. His daughter is a jazz singer so I figured he would be supportive of jazz singers.

Have you considered Western Michigan as a safety? Strong jazz department. I remember a thread from last year with posts about good scholarships for popular music vocalists – I want to say Belmont? Loyola?

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Yes Roger is great. They have no jazz voice here anymore or anything in contemporary music/songwriting etc. Western would be good too but they only have jazz voice. Honestly until we met with Kate Reid at Frost, D had not been considering jazz voice as a major. Now she is. People have said on this site that professors make such a strong impact on decision making and that couldn’t be more true. We really got great warm fuzzies from all of the departments at Frost.

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I know a jazz guitar who is going into Berklee as a freshman with full a tuition scholarship.

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@SpartanDrew, I don’t know anything about jazz! But my D has just committed at Oberlin Conservatory in VP where she received a full tuition (plus) gift aid award (scholarship plus grant). I know we were having this discussion on another thread about the few schools that pledge to meet need, and Oberlin does and certainly did (and then some) in our case. (Again, their admissions are “need informed”, by necessity, but your D sounds amazing!) They just hired La Tanya Hall to teach their Jazz Voice students (this was her first year). Worth a look!

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Thanks @dramasopranomom and huge congrats to your D! I sure hope to be writing something very similar next year but who knows. The problem is, D is ever the “artsy” type and is UP one minute and DOWN the next feeling stress and pressure and anxiety all the way. We walk a tight rope of emotions trying to find our way here. I am pushing her a bit towards jazz voice because that’s where she has won awards in everything from YoungArts to other national accolades etc yet I know she wants to write her own music. I worry that if she goes that route primarily, she may not get the scholarship $$ or even admitted. It’s terrifying. Don’t get me wrong, she loves jazz voice. She just doesn’t want to make a career out of it. My feeling is she can major in that (and hopefully her talent there lands her $$) and minor or take classes in songwriting etc and have a fusion of both together which is ultimately what she wants to do. Write and perform her own stuff that has more of an eclectic jazzy soulful sound versus pop. I want her to be able to fulfill her goals but she needs $$$ to do that with these schools. In so many ways it would be easier if she was a standard “JAZZ” person or “Classical voice” or something that fits a mold. She doesn’t seem to fit any one thing making this journey that much more challenging. And listening to the EP’s and professionally produced songs of kids out there right now makes me feel like from a songwriting/performance perspective, she is out of her league. The key point in that statement is “professionally produced”. Any time we submit her original stuff it’s just an unedited recording and it seems to go nowhere. Thus the conundrum…

It’s going to be an interesting journey…

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@SpartanDrew, I remember at my S’s Frost audition, we met this really dynamic instructor who talked about how there’s quite a lot of cross-pollination there. And the CAM minor sounds perfect for your D! My son was/is essentially a jazz guitarist who auditioned in that genre, but really wanted to compose and find his own voice. I think Jazz is a good entree (and sometimes the only college entree for vocalists and guitarists) but that it can be uniquely defined depending on the program. My S and I liked Oberlin too.

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@SpartanDrew I was just going to sugges the CAM program at Frost, and drummer girl beat me to it. It sounds perfect for her.

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I am not sure it is a good idea to try to sway your daughter toward jazz voice for admissions purposes. I know it’s hard, but I think it is helpful for parents to try to be facilitators at this point, rather than directors- and I am sensing that you are trying to be that detached supporter while at the same time struggling with understandable concerns about admissions, money, and competition from peers. It is hard to find a balance.

Your daughter wanted to do songwriting until the warm fuzzies at Frost, is that right? How did she feel coming out of the Berklee summer program? I wonder what this summer will bring: a new focus, or a deepening interest in songwriting. And so much can happen in a year. I think your daughter rmay be mature enough and talented enough that you can let things happen a bit, let her evolve and clarify.

It seems clear that she is multi-faceted, and needs an environment where she can be multi-faceted and not have to narrow her focus as yet. If she wants to do grad school ultimately, that will be a time to narrow focus more. Both Berklee and Frost would seem to offer congenial fits, but there are many others as well.

If money is an issue, and if you might qualify for financial aid, applying to music schools or conservatories affiliated with universities or colleges is a good option. It is risky to depend on merit aid as a strategy, if it is essential financially.

I wonder if your daughter would consider a liberal arts environment as well- one where she could major in music, get a foundation, and have support and resources for what she wants to do. There are colleges with courses in songwriting, and there are also colleges where you can do independent work. One example is Bennington: scroll to the bottom to see where students have worked during the yearly field work term and note Grammy winners on the site:
http://www.bennington.edu/academics/areas-of-study-curriculum/music

I know a young woman who makes her living writing songs and singing, who went to Barnard (Columbia and Manhattan School of Music are both nearby). She sang in Italy all through college I believe. Sarah Lawrence, and Vassar might be good fits. Schools without the typical gen ed requirements can be really good for music.

If your daughter becomes really clear on what she wants to do, and badly wants a fully immersive musical environment, of course a conservatory is most likely the best choice, So playing devil’s advocate a bit here. Just introducing the idea that for a multi-faceted singer, colleges can also be inspiring places, as long as lessons are available and there are performance opportunities.

Early professional success has pros and cons. I like the tortoise in the story about the tortoise and the hare. I have only come to this a bit late, but I see undergrad years as a time to keep broad and diverse interests and lay a foundation for grad school or work, and there is no hurry to mature, only the luxury of having the time to develop.
Again, I did not necessarily see this 10 years ago: my kids have taught it to me by their own insistence on developing at their own pace, not that of the marketplace.