@SpartanDrew - I don’t want to understate how it can be “painful” to be playing in certain groups, and I don’t really want to give advice like I know something that yo and everyone else don’t know, so hopefully a “filter of encouragement and empathy” (FEE) can be applied to my thoughts if I don’t say them right - when in this situation, it seems like the best lemonade to make is to step up to the level of instructor helper or helper/advisor/coach for the other students - so you can get practice teaching people or explaining what you are doing so you have a chance to more deeply review your own ways.
Exactly, sometimes the best way to learn is to help others.
Thanks @GoForth I understand where you are coming from truly. But again, given the cost of the program and what we are looking to achieve (upping her game in a big way to get ready for college pre-screens and auditions) it’s not what we want for her given the timing of it. Hoping she can get it sorted out today. I’ll post an update as soon as she lets me know what’s happening. Thanks for your thoughts and advice.
“I understand what you are saying when you talk about “helping others” but spending 9K to do that when we expected a challenging college program that would get her ready for college audition season is unacceptable to me.”
Count me in this school of thought. The reality of music education is the expectations may not always be met, you can get into groups or ensembles that don’t do much for you as a player, it happens. I would recommend having your daughter talk to the administrators there about her placement, and see why they put her in the groups they did and if there is any way she could place into a more advanced class, one thing about programs like these or music schools is they likely aren’t going to reach out to the students, it is going to be the student’s job to handle these things down the road, and this should be good practice. She needs to advocate for herself, you are paying for the program and it is her right to do so (in a respectful way).
As far as helping others to make it a better experience, I think she would be better off advocating for herself, in the end helping others IMO experience isn’t going to make up for the lack of learning she feels she will have being in a group that she feels is much less advanced, and it likely won’t do that much to make her feel better about the program or feel fulfilled. Not saying it isn’t a great thing to want to help others, but the line about helping others, or the related one, that musicians and music students have to get used to playing with people of all abilities is out and out fiction, usually IME it is used as an excuse for using top level players to make up for deficiencies in a group. One program I won’t mention, for example, does things like have grad students playing as concertmaster for low level UG groups, helps them out a lot, doesn’t do anything for the student. When kids do music theory they place them based on ability, they don’t place kids who are really experienced with it in a 101 level class and tell them they should make do by tutoring the other kids. It is much like the arguments with gifted kids that if they find the work easy they can finish early, then help the ‘slow learners’, as if that is a replacement for challenging the kid. If a kids goal is to make it professionally in music, I mean do it at a high level (which I assume most would want to do), the range of ability they run into will not fit the 'you have to learn to play with people at all levels", at any kind of decent level of music likely that won’t be true (I could see it in some cases where someone does things like wedding gigs and the like, or local semi pro orchestras and such, but that is a different story).
Again, no program is perfect, my S at the school he went to UG he didn’t have a chamber music experience that did much for him compared to what he had already done, and at times there will be things that are less than optimal, an orchestra cycle, a sonata partner, etc, and kids do need to learn it won’t all be fun or even, to be honest, seemingly worthwhile…but if something specific is not working, something they consider important, then making do to me is not a path to take…
For the @OP, your D should take it on herself to talk about the things that aren’t working and see what she needs to do. People do get placed wrong, it happens, a kid could have had an audition that didn’t indicate their true level, someone fouled up, and there is nothing wrong with asking about if there is any way , for example your D, to do an audition or something to move into a more challenging group, as long as it is done respectfully and without coming off as egotistical or whining, it is worth the effort IMO:).
I like how @GoForth stated it. Nothing being said below is meant to excuse the situation but you’re not alone. My D has participated in a lot of great programs/jobs and a few stinkers. She has learned:
Everyone who performs a lot seems to have had a few stories of bad experiences (pd or not pd).
In some programs you get a lot of attention and others you get ignored.
In some programs/jobs, you work like a dog and others you are bored.
The price/scholarships may (or may not) matter.
How you’re recruited and what they tell you, may (or may not) matter.
You need to advocate for yourself…and that may (or may not) matter.
Others experiences, program reputation may (or may not) matter.
Sometimes you will feel “used” by a program/job.
My D has learned different ways over the years to diminish the surprises. It is mainly through trail and error and peer to peer or teacher communication. In the end my D has usually walked away with a few good friends, plenty of laughs and “war” stories to share.
The only “error” you may have made…is assuming all music programs are basically good for all kids. Use that knowledge in your college search…bc you could easily trade out the words programs and jobs in the above list for college!
I hope it works out…as it still can…and in the end she will have grown in some way.
@bridgenail:
Nicely put, in the end like in many things the process is trial and error, that ‘great program’ might turn out to be not so great, the ‘great teacher’ might be a tyranical idiot, and disappointments are often there, and I agree that kids have to get used to this, it is true in ‘real life’, and it is especially true in music, you kind of feel your way along and learn to deal with the highs and lows, as someone once told my son, you need a thick skin and a cast iron will at times, both to move forward and as he colorfully put it, not strangle some @#&&*@! idiot:).
@musicprnt and @bridgenail your comments are so very useful and supportive for me right now. D called again after having spoken with program administrators and having had a lesson with her private teacher there that went terribly terribly wrong. It has been a punch in the gut to us. I can’t begin to describe it.
She is a very positive person and can take constructive criticism from anyone. Underline “constructive”. Her private lesson was anything but. PM me for details if you want, I won’t belabor them here. This has been quite a learning curve for us both. The upside is she is advocating for herself and trying to change her schedule. And learning that all places are very different in faculty and style which is good moving into college auditions. Yikes what a week.
That sounds like an awful experience, @SpartanDrew.
I’m so sorry @SpartanDrew! ((hugs)) While I agree with everyone that this can be seen as a valuable learning experience, honestly this stinks for a rising senior about to start the application cycle and being faced with so much stress and so many big decisions.
We were fortunate that all of my son’s summer experiences reinforced his love of music and his desire to pursue music study, though he did figure out that one top prof wouldn’t be a good teacher fit for him. When I try to put myself in your shoes and imagine if my son had had a horrible experience like you describe, I can’t help but wonder how it might have affected his stress level and his college application process, if he would have had a different list of schools, whether or not he would have applied to the most competitive school on his list (which turns out to be the one he will be attending this fall), etc. Ugh. I hope your daughter will come out of this experience stronger and more aware of what type of program and teacher she wants, regardless of whether or not her experience with this program improves. The fact that she is advocating for herself is an excellent sign.
I can imagine that Berklee isn’t too high on her college list right now.
My daughter has been attending summer programs since she was ten, often more than one per summer. She’s 25 now, so that’s a lot of programs. After 11th grade she has attended no-pay programs, or programs that require a nominal fee. But for the first seven years we paid tuition which, although less (because it was years ago) than what SpartanDrew describes, felt exorbitant to us. We skipped family vacations and even borrowed to be able to afford those programs. Now, when she attends programs she forfeits earnings–a financial loss, even when she is not paying tuition. And, except for international programs, there are also travel costs. This summer she’s attending 3–two as a student and one as faculty (but her faculty compensation is lower than what she could earn if she stayed home.) So, I understand from experience how difficult it is when a program that you pay for dearly, one way or another, is disappointing.
But one thing she has learned over the years is that sometimes the best lesson is not what you thought you were going to learn. It could be as simple as finding out that a teacher or conservatory you believed would be perfect for you is not a good fit. (Or vice-versa–this summer my daughter had lessons with a teacher she was worried about, even dreading, and it was a terrific experience.) Or it could be a more complex lesson about how to deal with a group of problematic peers. And it could be a lesson that gels years later, in one of those aha! moments. Sometimes the connections you make turn out to be extremely fortunate in the future, even if they were made under what at the time seemed to be difficult, stressful conditions. Sometimes the teacher that tore you down turns out to have great respect for you and your potential. His teaching style might not be what you need right now, but years down the road this teacher could be perfect, or might even turn out to be a colleague.
I know I’m bright-siding a bad experience, but I just wanted to throw in a long perspective that might shed a little hope.
I’m so sorry you are going through this @SpartanDrew . I do hope at this point things are being addressed by the school.
To elaborate on some of the previous comments. Especially those regarding being placed in a class to teach others. I would like to share another angle on this. By being placed in a class that seems far below the students level, the student can actually receive more direct instruction from the teacher and therefore be used to demonstrate to the rest of the class. If the student can embrace this placement, tremendous growth can take place at a rapid pace over a summer program. It can be very confusing and frustrating for the student until they understand the process. I am not saying this is the case with your child, it may be and it may not be. I have just seen that this can be viewed as a very good placement in the proper setting. As glassharmonica said, sometimes these experiences are exactly what you need to prepare for the next step!
My insight comes from dance programs, not music, but I have seen similar situations first hand, that were exactly what my child needed to move forward in her art. She also experienced some harsh demeaning criticism along the way. This is terrible when you are paying for such torture. However, as much as I despise this, it can be a strong lesson in pursuing your art because you love it and see no other choice, and in not taking it all too personally, each instructor has their opinion and their way of giving corrections. It is just one person’s opinion. And after the student works diligently and shows growth and improvement despite them, their praise is an even greater reward.
I also feel that there is a fine line for constructive criticism and overly negative criticism. I think students need to start standing up to those who dish out negative demeaning criticism. If that is happening it can lead to far too many consequences, including physical and mental health concerns.
Lastly, it is probably difficult for these large programs to meet every student at their individual level of talent. And not every student is there for the same reasons. So they do the best they can with placements. Basically they have to focus on fine tuning technique with so many different levels of talent. After coming to terms with the process, my D usually found that being placed at the top of a lower level class gave her the best training for her and that it was exactly what she needed at the time. Sometimes letting go of expectations and trusting the process in necessary. Your D is learning so much about herself and new skills to advocate for herself. She will know in the future what feels right and what doesn’t because of all this. These insights will be useful as she goes through the audition process in the fall.
My heart goes out to you because I do know how hard it is to navigate when your child is far away from you.
Thanks everyone for such great, supportive and positive comments with your thoughts and perspective. It was an absolutely awful week for both D as well as me. You can imagine we were blindsided by this and some pretty important work deadlines for me had to be postponed and rescheduled due to the stress of trying to help her navigate through all of this and even contemplating putting her on a plane and sending her home from Boston to try to salvage some money back.
As much as I would like to say that D advocated for herself, which she really did do, the 5 week office really was doing nothing about it at all until I sent “strongly worded” emails to them communicating our extreme frustration and disappointment. They would tell D “there’s nothing we can do…” she would call me extremely upset, I would send out emails then things would happen. It shouldn’t be like that. It’s all been so unexpected and shocking to us truly. Again, I don’t want anyone here to think that we think D is the best and the brightest and has nothing to learn, nothing could be further from the truth. But we wanted and expected her to be in a challenging environment musically which wasn’t the case at all.
You have to remember that with this particular program, it’s not audition based as were the other programs she had been involved in like Interlochen. YoungArts, Songbook ACademy and Grammy Camp. All of those programs were such challenging and invaluable experiences for her where she learned and grew and made lifelong connections. Even the shorter Berklee program last summer was fantastic which is why this experience has been so shocking to us. That being said, I can appreciate where a lot of your comments are coming from. That she will learn and grow in the toughest of times and I agree with that now that we’ve had a weekend of calm to digest all of it.
She did finally get a new schedule with higher level ensembles and technical classes. I told the office via email (after they declined D’s request for a new voice teacher) that her teacher and her technique’s were completely unacceptable. Someone mentioned the movie “Whiplash” to me and it resonated in this moment. Her vocal coach from here at home is currently traveling in Europe and sent her some good advice on how to muddle through and even take some positives away from this voice teacher should she not be able to be reassigned. I guess that could happen but her technique and delivery were so awful I don’t see how anything positive could come from it. D went to her and wanted to work on songs for college pre-screens and she refused. A lot more to the story but I won’t go into it. I’m sure she is very good for many vocalists but just not a good fit for D and I let the office know that. We are hoping to hear that she is getting someone different tomorrow. On the plus side, She got an email from the director of her new ensemble with a very challenging song he wanted to see if she was interested in doing and she absolutely loved it! I cold see her using it for a YoungArts audition if she gets it down and nailed. I’m happy to hear the excitement in her again about learning new and challenging things.
So all in all, it looks like things are changing for the better but it shouldn’t have had to come at the expense of a terrible first week and me spending a great deal of my work time trying to turf it for her. She tried to advocate for herself and got nowhere. And yes @classicalsaxmom sadly Berklee went from #1 or #2 on her list to the very bottom. I want her to still do the audition workshop and audition for scholarship because it’s such a great experience for her moving into college audition season but I expect ZERO to come from it other than experience. I don’t see Berklee being a fit for her at all which honestly stuns us all. But, that’s why she is there. To find that out. So a silver lining to everything!
Thanks again all for such great and insightful comments. I will really need a lot of moral support moving through this process during the next 6 months! YIKES!
I’m sorry you’re going through this and I can really understand how frustrating it is for you and your daughter. But be warned that this won’t be the last time, regardless of what school she goes to. It’s part and parcel of being in a completely subjective field. I also think there’s some residual “apprenticeship” attitudes left, as well.
My one recommendation is to be careful about feeding your daughter’s dissatisfaction. It’s one thing to teach how to self-advocate but another to imply that when that fails, the experience is a total failure. Learning how to handle failures, whether it’s deserved or fair, is (IMO) one of the most important lessons that our performing arts children will learn. And be careful about burning bridges – music is a surprisingly small world.
FWIW, my son had a pretty mediocre experience his first summer at Interlochen. Didn’t get into the band he thought he deserved to be in, disappointed in his ensemble assignment, etc. I was crushed because Interlochen was like my second home growing up. He didn’t get over it for a while and skipped the next summer. His second experience was completely different – exact same faculty. Sometimes it just happens.
I’m glad things are looking up…and you and she are finding the good in the bad.
As for her advocating for herself, it is absolutely the first step. I tried very hard not to “call the school” during her UG years (by grad school is was no longer an issue). However one incident stuck with me during her summer orientation that made it clear that not everyone employed by an expensive well-known school has nothing but goodness in their heart.
Her degree allowed her to take a few MT/theatre classes (a different school at her university) so she needed special permission to complete her registration. She got all the details, followed the process (never an issue for my D). I was not allowed to be part of it but my D is pretty organized so I figured she knew what she was doing. I did walk over to the theatre school with her to find the admin office where the final magic could be done. We found the office by I hung back to let her do it on her own. The admin barely let her explain her situation before she told her she couldn’t help her and my D was wrong about the process. My D starting explaining again and asking politely what to do and again the admin shut her down. My D (who can’t give up) started again asking for help and then I just walked over and stood outside the door (probs with a sour look on my face). The admin saw me, looked a bit shocked and said she’d find away to take care of it (which took a minute on her computer). I walked away without saying anything.
As much as you should stay out of their business it’s unfortunate that they are young and can be taken advantage of or blown off…even when advocating for themselves. There is a lot of trial and error at this age that is painful to watch…but they do learn and survive it. For $9000 and the fact that your D did advocate for herself, at some point an adult may need to ask some tough questions (or just loom in a doorway).
I hope in the end she can find positives as her situation while annoying is not terribly uncommon. She is “living the life” now.
Yes I’m starting to realize that this path will be a very different one from my S who is an engineering student. Much more subjective for sure. @ScreenName48105 what do you mean about “apprenticeship” attitudes? I’m not understanding that part. And your points are valid. This is a learning process for me as well. Understand about burning bridges as well. As for handling failures she does that just fine. I think this has far more to do with dealing with a borderline abusive individual although after a lot of advice if she doesn’t get a switch in voice teachers I’ll let her handle it how she sees fit and try to find some positive in the experience.
I am sorry for the reason for this part of the thread, Spartan Drew, but there are truly some extraordinary posts here. I noticed that 4,300 people have viewed this thread and they are all getting to read the advice offered so articulately from experienced parents here. There is a lot of wisdom and perspective here.
A small thing about the “helping others” comment that I made awhile back. That was just mentioned as a way to salvage what seemed like a totally negative situation. Noone would ever suggest spending that amount of money in order to “help others” in music.
I think others wrote really thoroughly and effectively on the potential upsides of a bad experience- well beyond my “helping others” comment.
The one negative that should never be tolerated is abuse. Unfortunately, in the music/dance/art world it can be hard to tell what is abuse and what is a certain old-fashioned style of teaching.
One of my kids had a ballet teacher who chased students around with an umbrella, but heart of gold. He told us a story about a NYC teacher whose class was robbed during class. When the thieves left, she said, “shall we resume?” She was a tough cookie and students learned about more than dance with her. Take that a little farther, though, and it could be a really destructive thing.
Hope the new teacher is a good fit and in the meantime, I just really enjoyed and appreciated the above comments.
By “apprenticeship attitude”, I mean the “I don’t care what you ‘hear’, when you’re my student (or in my ensemble), you play it my way.”
And, by “failure”, I really mean it in the broad sense of not being able to accomplish your goal, regardless of why or whether you had any control of the outcome. My son and his friends have been nurturing a venue that’s never had live entertainment all summer long. Talked the manager into a trial night, playing for tips. That went well, so got a better night, again for tips. Finally got a great night, with talk of being paid. The manager cancelled 3 hours before the gig. So, the question is, do they schedule another gig at this place? Those are hard lessons but one that happens in this industry often.
@ScreenName48105 - we had that one happen. A restaurant where S had a few gigs, there had been a cancelled show once before, I think the day beforehand. Then one show we get there early, eat at the place beforehand, then at that moment learn that the gig is cancelled. The band decided that was enough, so no more shows there.
Wow, all such useful information. Good grief why couldn’t D just go into medicine or engineering??? LOL. Oh well. She was reassigned a new voice teacher so we are happy about that. She still has the other one for a class so it will be a good experience for her to learn how to deal with someone she finds difficult and doesn’t click with and still take away some valuable lessons.
As for Berklee, I think it can be a great school and great program for the right musicians. I’m not sure it will be that for my D, especially since she is learning now how big it is and how easily one can get lost in the shuffle. I think she is learning that a smaller school and student body might benefit her more and is looking more towards that. She will still audition and do the audition workshop at the end of the month. If for nothing else than experience which is always a good thing. She is learning a lot about Berklee as well as herself in this program so we are definitely getting the benefit of that out of it.
I know so many people who have had stellar experiences with the 5 week program so I hope my venting hasn’t caused anyone to decide not to do it because of our experience. I hope that it’s a resource for those that are there experiencing similar situations needing some advice on what to do. I also know a couple of Berklee grads that had an amazing undergrad experience there as well. The right college for the right kid. @diglass told me that all of these experiences help your child land in the place they are meant to be which may very well not be the place you thought they would be. I’m trying to embrace that journey and still keep my sanity intact!
Time to stock up the wine fridge! :))
@SpartanDrew - I have heard that it is possible to get lost in that crowd. I have also heard the same thing (not the same extent I can’t say) about UNT, where S is going. Between UNT and Frost, I got the feeling that Frost might have more of that feeling where they won’t let you get lost. Whether getting lost, dealing with getting lost, not getting lost when you could have is good or bad will be up to the student. I felt that some degree of not getting lost when one could get lost might translate into the post-college period, where one might get more lost.
I never told the story of our biggest “let down”. I will not use names. You all can guess where it was, but I won’t confirm. So a pretty special unique music scholarship was available that S invested some time and money into going for. Once S was far into the process, we learned that scholarship had already been reserved for a particular person several months before, but the spot was still appearing to be open for competition as far as the general public could tell. S completed his actions, but we knew the big prize was gone. We could have spent those resources elsewhere if it had been made plain that it was no longer available.
Looking back, S, if he knew how well he would be able to audition, would have crossed of a couple “safeties” and added Berklee. He sometimes plays with a person who is getting full tuition to there, so that kind of made him curious what deal he might have gotten.