Very well said, Spartan Drew, nice of you to post for others, and hope your daughter’s summer is wonderful from here on out.
@Spartandrew I’m buying you a glass of wine in August!
@spartandrew:
When people ask me about music education, I tell them that in many ways it is very much the apprentice/master or priest/acolyte model of things, because the teacher means so much (talking performance here). Put it this way, if you are an engineering student the curricula is pretty standard, and for the most part the teachers don’t matter that much, studying intro to digital circuits is likely to be taught the same way no matter where you are (not saying there aren’t variances, studying EE at MIT is different than studying it at another school). With music it is a very personal thing, it is a teacher that can work with the student, want to, and vice versa, and it makes a difference. My S has had lessons with people others loved, and he couldn’t stand them, has loved working with teachers others found to not work for them.Situations like that, though, give a lot of power to the teacher, and some teachers take advantage of that, the way masters can and have done with apprentices, and unfortunately despite the crap I have heard, how schools wouldn’t tolerate abusive teachers, how those days are long in the past, they aren’t. Without naming names, there are schools, talking name schools, who looked the other way at teachers accused of sexual misconduct, for example, or as in the movie Whiplash, emotionally and sometimes physically abusive, and they look the other way because these teachers are well know, high level performers, etc, and they see that as such a big plus they look the other way, or will tell the student “he/she is just a tough teacher”, get used to it.Obviously, there is a difference between a tough teacher and one who is abusive, a lot of it comes down to how they are tough, but when teachers make it personal, when they degrade the student rather than be tough about the playing or the prep, it is over the line, and there are more than a few teachers like that out there (on the other hand, there are teachers like someone my son thought of teaching, who are caustic in comments but don’t make it personal or over the line, like telling a student who went to Curtis “So are they now not bothering to teach good intonation is important at Curtis?” in a master class. It can be a fine line, and students will likely have to deal with that, or like the youth symphony conductor my son was in who in a section he wasn’t happy with have the members of the section involved play individual in front of the rest of the orchestra and criticizing them that way, too…is it the way I would do it? No, but the football coach or basketball coach a la Bobby Knight (ex Indiana basketball coach) exists in music (Janos Starker, the cellist, taught at Indiana, and Bobby Knight brought him in to talk to his players about his teaching…and Starker told them that when one of his ex students died, that Saint Peter would look and say “oh, they studied with Starker? They go to heaven, they already have been in hell”).
In the end that line can be different for different people, and if it gets crossed then the student needs to take steps to protect themselves, advocate for themselves, whether it is switching teachers or switching schools in exteme cases. Not talking an individual event, but rather where it isn’t working, or worse, where the student is really, really losing it. Having a thick skin is important, but there comes a point where you can’t create enough callous to cover it, the hard part can be knowing where. I think your D did the right thing, one thing I do know is that if the student doesn’t say anything or advocate for themselves even supposedly caring programs can let them get lost, and that ability to advocate for themselves, stand up for themselves is skill they will need, for sure. Doesn’t make it any easier nor am I excusing it, but bureaucracy and navigating tricky situations is a life lesson most people need to learn, it happens to be in music or any art it likely is going to be more magnified (which is why, for example, a lot of employers look at music students favorably, they know that music students have unique experiences and know they have had to deal with egos and difficult fellow students/musicians and so forth, and have had to in a lot of ways handle their own path, because music is so different than getting an academic degree, comparitively getting to be a doctor is easy because you can become a doctor 'by the numbers", you can’t in music.
My family loved watching Whiplash so much because it seemed so ridiculous and over the top, but have never run into anything like it in real life.
My favorite line I recall from one of S’s drumline techs in drum corps, “It was good, until you started playing.”
I just remember all that blood! Was it rated R for violence?!
Had to be rated R for language for sure. Great movie though. JK Simmons was outstanding.
I watched it once and was interested. I wondered who took the music book from the hallway. So I watched it a second time to see if there were subtleties I would pick up on, but on the second viewing, I just realized how much language was in the movie. Although S had differing opinions from the instructor in some cases of dragging versus rushing.
Haha @GoForth I think I mentioned my hubby is a college football coach. The language was tame in that movie in relation… 8-|
I have always told my D the following since she’s female (but it seems appropriate to music teachers and school searches):
Don’t go looking for a “knight in shining armor”. He doesn’t exist.
Your success is yours alone. Others may help but your success resides in you not in others. Don’t believe anyone who tells you otherwise.
You don’t need to always smile. You don’t need to be pleasing. You SHOULD draw boundaries on behavior. If you don’t like something, object. There are ALWAYS other opportunities.
I will always back you up…particularly on “feelings”. If it doesn’t feel right, I believe and support you.
In looking at colleges, don’t fall under the “spell” of an all-powerful teacher or school…it doesn’t exist. Just find a place you believe your young adult can grow musically, academically and very importantly socially. This will be their support network … outside of that, it is really up to them…not a magical teacher.
Whiplash is over the top, but there are varying grades of him in teachers who are out there, and they aren’t all ‘old generation’ types, my S’s teacher in high school straddled that line and it caused damage…I know of teachers who scream at students, throw chairs and such, and not all of them are 80 years old. Part of the problem is a mentality where it is the teachers job to strip the student of any ego, to take him/her ‘down to ground’, but as Pam Franks talked about in an interview talking about her teacher (who was one of the old guard Russian teachers at Curtis), they didn’t believe in building it up. When JK Simmon’s character (and he was fantastic, he deserved the Oscar and more) talks about how Charlie Parker became Bird, it is basically the same idea, that you are forged in fire, etc and it informs what they do, along with the fact that like many other things, like those who dismiss bullying as ‘one of those things you need to learn to grow up’ are people who have been bullied themselves and take some pleasure out of the idea "well, I had to endure it, so do they’. It is a sad fact of the music world that teachers like that, or teachers who have a reputation of sexual harassment, are allowed to go on teaching because ‘they are great teachers’…and some schools have paid the price for that.
Well said @musicprnt.
An update, D has been much happier with her placement in the higher level vocal technique classes and ensembles. Also assigned a new voice teacher who she will see on Friday. The new ensembles are much much better. She mentioned one jazz vocalist who studies jazz at his high school in her ensemble and is “much better at scatting than me but I’m being challenged so I like it”. She’s no slouch in improv either so I imagine she is with musicians that are more commensurate to her level. Exactly what we had hoped for her. I am certain the new teacher will be great as well. Reading her bio she teaches jazz improv classes there so I’m happy she will be with someone who can help her with technique there.
It’s been a very informative and interesting experience so far. She went to the audition workshop today and will audition sometime over the weekend of the 28th through 30th. They audition with just one song. That’s it. Seems so odd to me and so different from most other music schools who want pre-screens (which obviously since they are at Berklee that’s not necessary) then live auditions, most with several songs. It will be interesting to see what happens although I’m expecting nothing other than experience to come of it for her.
Other small things I had mentioned before, she has had to pay a lot out of pocket to get meals on her own due to the cafeteria not being open or having a meal being served when she doesn’t have class. Her classes are scheduled back to back (not her doing) with little to no time in between to get food. It’s a huge expense for room and board for this program to have to pay for meals out of pocket. These are just small things we are considering as we move forward in this process. Likely many other small schools will be exactly the same but more of the larger Universities, like U Miami/Frost, this is not an issue. It’s just another factor to consider and may or may not important to many people.
Anyway, things seem to be looking up for her all in all. Thank you all so much for the moral support and notes!
Only playing one song for college auditions is pretty common. Many auditions are scheduled for 15 minutes, so maybe a few questions, one or two songs, or sometimes just parts of them. Berklee doesn’t require pre-screens. You can provide samples, e.g. performance videos, but that’s optional. Their auditions are video-taped by a proctor, so not evaluated live. That one song ends up mattering a lot. FWIW, my son regrets not taking it a little more seriously – Berklee wasn’t one of his top choices going in and he was thinking only in terms of getting accepted. It didn’t occur to him how much money might be at stake. His naive attitude for his first audition.
The meal situation probably isn’t uncommon either. I had the same complaints about Berklee, especially since their room and board is one of the most expensive (if not THE most expensive) among all of the Boston schools. I think musicians, on the whole, eat badly. I’ve had a few conversations with other music school parents (in popular music/jazz) over the course of the year and this summer and they all echo the same complaints wherever their kids may be going to school. They do so much outside of classes, with practice rooms being a premium, rehearsals, sessions. My son is regularly asked to participate in recording projects where their studio time is after midnight. The one advantage of Berklee is that there is opportunity to get involved in a wide variety of projects outside of school but it can take its toll in fast food and uber.
Do students have access to a mini fridge? Microwave? My kids have relied on yogurts, sandwiches, bagels and fruit that can be stored in the room and foods that can be carried around. Might be harder for guys who generally need more food!
@ScreenName48105 - Something caught my eye. I hope I don’t scrutinize something said merely in passing, but my engineering logic analyzer was triggered. Sorry in advance. Here it is: Does “practice rooms being at a premium” contribute to “eat badly”? I was thinking [1] if there is less time to practice in a practice room, then there would be more time to eat, or [2] there is so much travel and searching time spent finding the practice room that this seeking time, combined with the standard duration of actual practice, take away time for eating.
I would speculate that the fact that practice rooms are hard to get means there is less choice about when to practice. You have to grab a room when you can and that timing may conflict with meal times. But not sure!
@SpartanDrew - Your post got me curious about meals, so I looked at the Berklee web site. My younger D is at UMich and the posted summer hours for the Berklee cafe (meals served continuously from 8am-7:30pm) seem more generous, plus it says they have to-go containers if you are short on time. It looked like their continental meal menus, served between breakfast & lunch and lunch & dinner, were extensive. Are they not living up to what’s posted? Or is your daughter in classes for 11 hours straight? My D’s schedule is usually horrid on studio days, but when she lived/ate on campus she still managed to grab a bagel or something to go. I hope your daughter can figure out something that works for her and is easier on the wallet!
I’ll have to ask D about the to go containers. I do know she went to the Caf for the continental breakfast during the hours posted on the website and they had no food out. She doesn’t have classes for 11 hours straight but for a few days has them straight through lunch so getting something before or after class is a challenge. For instance today her classes started at 9am and go pretty much straight through to 2 pm with about 10 minutes in between classes which is basically enough time to get to class. Then her last class at 3pm so having food out between 2 and 3 is important.
As for microwaves and mini fridges I would assume that they could have them during the school year but none are allowed for the summer kids.
I would have her ask the food service people if the food isn’t out when she gets there, it could be they would do something on demand at that point.
@goforth:
I think the issue with practice rooms may be that practice rooms are most available during the hours when the food service is serving,for obvious reasons. The other problem is that because of classes and rehearsals and the like, it could be that the time left for practicing coincides with the time the meal service is serving, one of the things most music students all say is how packed their day is.
Thanks for the explanations. One reason S did not apply (regardless if he would get in, or if he was correct in his analysis, or if it is/was true/not) to MSM is he did not like the aspect of having to reserve a practice room each day when the reservations opened at midnight and then travel about town to get to the room.
One thing I like about his UNT logistics is the ability to practice in one’s room during non-quiet-hours (12 hours per day) among other areas. And the dorm having a cafeteria and the dorm being next to the music building.
WRT post #150, auditioning for voice with one song: Perhaps it is jazz that is different (or Berklee?), but my D auditioned for classical VP singing at least 2 and up to 4 songs, plus some sight-reading, and perhaps a brief conversation. She auditioned at 7 programs, of which 5 had pre-screens.