@tripletmama I would not worry about the comments on the report card. She received an A. I could easily interpret these comments as attempting to motivate a talented individual to become their best. It would be a shame if she peeked at HS so there has to be some room for improvement. The instructor may be looking for ways to encourage improvement. Some encourage with a carrot; some with a stick. Personally, I was always motived by donuts.
BTW, I am not saying my interpretation is correct. But it is how I would think about it and would discuss it with my kids. Of course, the instructor could always just be a jerk. But I doubt it will impact admissions.
Check about whether comments go to colleges. That will reassure you no doubt. I would be more upset about your daughter being left out of the award that the other ensemble members got: that seems somehow intentionally mean but maybe there is an explanation.
A few comments from experience with two kids in the arts:
Sometimes high school teachers have hidden resentments toward the most talented students
Sometimes there are higher expectations for the most talented students (One of mine is a dancer who went to an LAC, where she was clearly a star and asked to be in everyoneās pieces as a freshman, but she got that effort comment which was absurd and reflected the attitude that she must be coasting- she wasnāt.)
3)Sexism is alive and well in certain areas of the music world and viewing things through that lens can be instructive. (In some cases being pretty can hurt tooā¦) Are all the jazz faculty and administrators male?
Your kid is in an art school so the dynamic may be different. In our high school, the talented kids ALL left music in the school because the director had it out for the most talented kids. Some kind of personal pathology,I thought, but after many more years of experience with this stuff, it is not uncommon at all.
During applications, make sure she gets recommendations from those who value her whole person- talent, yes, but work ethic, collaboration and other aspects of character. It seems like she will have plenty of possibilities.
She has an amazing attitude and resilience already. That missing award would get to most of us, very hurtful. Sounds like a great kid and justice prevails in the end!!!
Thanks @BearHouse. Well, she talked to one of her instructors of the class today (there are two) and he said that he has no earthly idea where that comment came from because he thinks she is one of the hardest working musicians heās taught (heās 80 and has worked with the jazz greats - so thatās quite a compliment! He will be her reference for college applications. I emailed the Music Director and he said that, as you pointed out, that sheās good - and the comment was meant to motivate her to be even better. And - that comments donāt go out with transcripts to college. So - all that angst that I had last night was for naught. In talking to my daughter about it, though - I did learn that she did struggle this year a bit with memorizing all of the jazz rep. She would practice a lot - but memorization did not come naturally to her. At her last school she never had to memorize pieces like she does for this new school. In fact, some of the jazz musicians canāt read music that well. She thinks that is what the other instructor was referring to - her learning curve in the memorization of all the rep.
Iām curious - is not using music fairly typical? Is it a jazz vs. classical thing? Different types of Arts School? East vs. West Coast thing?
@SpartanDrew and @dlglass- I emailed her Music Director - and I do feel a bit silly now for reacting and losing sleep last night. Hereās what he wrote: As you already noted. Alex did receive an āAā in lab band. The comment, āneeds to work to potentialā is a comment many teachers use. It does not mean that the student does not work hard but only that we know there is more potential there. We especially use this comment with our most talented students to push them to be even better then they think they can be. I know in her combo class for example, her instructor told me several times that Alex would show up to their Friday class not knowing the music assigned. As we heard during our shows, she did learn all her music but there were days when she held her ensemble back by not knowing her music by the assigned rehearsal." - then he went on to say that she will have great opportunities next year in the top combo there, yada, yada.
When I asked our daughter about what happened on Fridays (btw - the comment was placed next to the wrong class which was confusing) - she said that at the beginning of the year, she really struggled with learning so much all at once (she never had formal jazz training - just āpicked things upā at her former Arts School (they had a wonderful Orchestra but not a very well run jazz program and she had no private instructor). But that she thinks the real struggle for her was having to memorize every number. She had always played from sheet music. So - she figured it out - but it did take her a few months to get the hang of memorization. She had practiced and prepared every piece - just not to memory. (to be honest, this sounds fairly difficult to me!).
One of her instructors on this class adores her and will write her references for college (along with her private instructor) so she should be fine.
I do feel a bit sad that she was kind of thrown into the deep end at the beginning of the year - but she learned it all (sink or swim) - and itās likely really good that we moved to this school. Seems like despite itās issues - that itās a top jazz program where she has learned a lot in a year.
My S only really had one school he wanted to attend. We needed to stay instate because of qualifying for a state grant. And he wanted to be not too far from home.
So we looked at a few that offer music education, but not all have the same opportunities for voice majors, or are too far away.
We visited two, and the one clearly stood out for overall program and reputation, especially for voice.
So he only applied to that one school, prepared for his audition, and was accepted.
Had he not been accepted to the music program, then he would have taken some gen eds at the local college, worked and re-auditioned the following year.
He was above average in stats for admission, so he was able to receive a merit scholarship. He also applied to over 10 local scholarships, and received a few. Together with the state grant, that pretty much covers tuition, and with the student loan and our contribution we need to cover room and board.
ā1) Sometimes high school teachers have hidden resentments toward the most talented students.
In our high school, the talented kids ALL left music in the school because the director had it out for the most talented kids. Some kind of personal pathology,I thought, but after many more years of experience with this stuff, it is not uncommon at all.ā
Spot on @compmom ! This has been also our experience.
@tripletmama, the first time I read your post I wondered if the comment might have been strictly motivational based on her talent and potential. Later on you confirmed it. This is a typical maneuver. Some teachers also like to give the A- grade as a signal to tell the talented and hard worker student āgive me more.ā As far as awards, when it comes to college auditions time, they donāt mean squat, the audition is king.
mommdc, I am so glad you mentioned another option:
āHad he not been accepted to the music program, then he would have taken some gen eds at the local college, worked and re-auditioned the following year.ā
If a young person has one or two or three schools that they really love, with a teacher they really want, I think it is okay to apply to one or just a few if the student is wiling to practice, and reaudition. That is one way to keep the number of auditions down!
This is all great great insight! I have two questions as we put the list together for S19 (jazz saxophone, possible double major in Music Ed):
Were standardized tests important at all? S has a 3.8/4.1 GPA and some accolades as a player (all-state jazz ensemble, regional honors) but he's been really resistant to taking the SATs. Standardized tests are just not his thing, and with all the stress of applications and auditions I am hesitant to push him. Did you find that your kid needed them?
How strongly should I listen to S's current preferences? So far he's seen Ithaca (current first choice), Berklee, Rutgers (Mason Gross), Peabody (he loved, I thought maybe too small) and Temple (wasn't for him). He's also heading up to Eastman for the jazz workshop in July, and we'll stop by Syracuse since it's on the way. As far as S is concerned, applying to 4-5 schools is enough. Should we push him to apply to more? Personally, I'd like him to see Oberlin and maybe Bard.
You are going to need to check schools individually on requirements for standardized testing for their schools of music. I suspect somewhere like Rutgers would require one for sure. Individual conservatories are less likely to require one. But I know Northwestern requires one and you need to be accepted to Northwestern as a whole and then the conservatory. I think Oberlin requires one too ā¦ https://www.oberlin.edu/admissions-and-aid/conservatory/academic-requirements-and-testing
Iād just encourage him to do a sample test or 2 and try. Maybe have him try an ACT and an SAT and see which works better for him. Otherwise you can really hone your list to schools that will not require standardized test scores. You can often dig around on individual program websites to find out application requirements.
Some music schools I have researched into indicate at their official website that SAT tests are optional, including Eastman, Lawrence, SUNY Purchase and Berklee.
@akapiratequeen The thing about college admissions is that you want to keep as many options open as possible at the beginning of the process. So by not taking the SAT and ACT, you are immediately closing off some possibilities. Yes, there are schools that are test optional, but even more that require them.
To me, itās one thing to look for test optional schools because test scores are weak and not reflective of the studentās potential. But it is another thing to close doors just because standardized test are not a kidās "thingā and they prefer not to take them.
Since students need to be accepted both academically and talent-wise at programs, it can be an unpredictable process. Consider that even test optional schools will probably take the kid with a strong SAT score over one without it (if all other things are equal.)
Additionally, scholarship money is sometimes tied to SAT scores and can be available to music kids in addition to talent money.
So without a real compelling reason, I would work hard to convince a child to take the SAT and/or ACT, keeping in mind that taking a test is certainly few studentās preference. They all seem to survive the loss of a few hours on a Saturday morning.
Test-optional colleges assure applicants that those who do not submit scores are not at a disadvantage. That is the whole point of being test-optional.
But yes academic merit money may require scores.
Check with the schools he is most interested in (and maybe they are on the Fairtest list). I would leave it up to him but he needs to know if there are consequences. So fact check with specific schools and he can make a decision.
Thank you all for this! I really appreciate the input. We have discussed and he will take the SAT.
Btw, I also did some calling around and discovered that, even at schools where they are required, the requirements are lower for music students assuming all else is exceptional. So for instance, Oberlin told me on the phone that a 3.0 GPA and a great audition will get you in to the conservatoryā¦certainly not true for the rest of the school. U. Michigan requires a 25 ACT score or equivalent for the music school, much higher for other programs. Rutgers and Peabody require them but are flexible as well.
This is actually part of what made him decide to go for it. The idea that the scores are somewhat flexible, assuming all else is well, took the pressure off. And who knows? He may crush them. Just trying to minimize the pressure where possible.
@akapiratequeen, you are correct. These schools are more lenient with the SAT/ACT scores from music school students than the general school population. I can attest this based on our experience. Audition is still king.
Glad the pressure is off! These poor kids have so much of it. Good for you for calling directly so you can tell him it is from the horseās mouth (gee, that is an old-fashioned expression isnāt it?)
@SpartanDrew --you may have mentioned this elsewhere, and I apologize if the answer is super obvious, but is The New School the same as Mannes? Visited Mannes with my D this spring, and we were impressed. The price tag seemed way out of reach, but I was heartened to see you mention that your D got a decent financial aid package. Just wondering if the schools are one in the same.
Hi @mom2clarinetobsessedkid. Yes, The New School is the āumbrellaā so to speak that all of the subcategory colleges are under like Parsonās school of design etc. Mannes is part of the performing arts college. And believe me, we almost didnāt let D apply because of the price tag and the fact that most NYC colleges are typically known for low merit offers. But you just never know. I sure am glad that we rolled the dice there, Dās outcome was totally unexpected and she is over the moon to be attending! Good luck!
Hi, @NYsaxmom! Have spent the last day reading the thread up to this point. I have a rising HS Junior, so weāre still early in the game. Just filling my head with everyoneās experiences, recommendations, reviews, etc. Always perk up at the mention of clarinet. Seems like most here have vocalists, but Iām learning a lot from everyone! Looks like maybe your D ends up choosing Vanderbiltāthough I havenāt gotten that far in my reading yet. Itās on our list to explore. I may need to reach out with specific questions at some point. Just happy to have another woodwind in the house! :-h
Iāll admit itā¦Iām obsessed with this thread! Started at the beginning a day or two ago. Now on page 46 and hanging on every word! Lol! Itās like the best (and simultaneously most terrifying) mini-series ever! I think I can tell from your profile āpicsā where many of your kids eventually end up, but itās fascinating to āwatchā the process play out here. Very educational. (Iām taking notes!) Is it okay to blame all of you for the fact that very little of the cleaning and organizing I had planned for summer break is getting done so far? Thank you for sharing the good, the bad, and the ugly. Iām definitely appreciating the wisdom, humor, and support here!
@mom2clarinetobsessedkid I was exactly the same way with @GoForth journal! It was an invaluable resource to me as we navigated this crazy crazy process. I started this new one in hopes of it being the same for others moving forward. Admittedly it got very long and as you said, like a mini series lol, but I think having a place where everyone could go and vent or ask questions or just share experiences with others walking the same path was wonderful for me and I think others felt the same. We are currently on our last leg of a long European vacation, currently in Ireland for Dās Senior trip. And we will start dorm shopping when we get home. Canāt believe she will be moving to college so soon!
Seems like most here have vocalists, but Iām learning a lot from everyone! Looks like maybe your D ends up choosing Vanderbiltāthough I havenāt gotten that far in my reading yet. Itās on our list to explore. I may need to reach out with specific questions at some point. Just happy to have another woodwind in the house! :-h