The truth about 'holistic' college admissions

From EEOC
"RECRUITMENT AND HIRING PRACTICES

Can an employer ask about an applicant’s race on an application form?

Employers may legitimately need information about their employees or applicants race for affirmative action purposes and/or to track applicant flow. One way to obtain racial information and simultaneously guard against discriminatory selection is for employers to use separate forms or otherwise keep the information about an applicant’s race separate from the application. In that way, the employer can capture the information it needs but ensure that it is not used in the selection decision.

Unless the information is for such a legitimate purpose, pre-employment questions about race can suggest that race will be used as a basis for making selection decisions. If the information is used in the selection decision and members of particular racial groups are excluded from employment, the inquiries can constitute evidence of discrimination."

My question: why shouldn’t colleges be held to the same standard?

Having gone through the college admissions process earlier this year myself, I find the concept of holistic admissions flawed in one key aspect. Colleges say they want “diversity” because it is good to have different cultural perspectives. But how in the world is “cultural perspective” directly linked to the color of your skin? A black student and a white student may have different views on certain topics - this is the diversity colleges love - but that isn’t 100% attributed to the fact one student is black and one student is white. Familial income, school type, geographic location, etc all play a role! While colleges claim that holistic admissions takes this into account, simple logic tells me that it’s more like a checklist where the colleges “need 3 more kids from __”. Have you seen the admissions charts on selective schools showing where students came from? There’s always that one kid from Wyoming or Paupa New Guinea. Always! given Wyomings population is almost 600,000 people, I find it strange that there’s always just 1 kid who happened to be “smart enough” for University

Yeah, but those characteristics don’t get reported to the government, nor are they apparent on glossly recruiting brochures.

So maybe the complaint is to Collegeboard and the govt.

Cultural diversity is not exclusively about skin color. The other factors ^^ do play a role. But we keep saying that.

Bowdoin, btw, once made the statement (in print) that perhaps short people feel they are “underrepresented.”

@lookingforward And kids from Catholic schools in New England LACs.

The Idea is to get “Fabulous” kids into elite schools, because they deserve it…

Of course the idea of what makes fabulous is subjective, heck every parent thinks their kid is fabulous, but does that mean others may not be MORE fab???

Is an Asian student with top scores is so common that maybe its not so fab?? But an Asian refugee who lived in squalor in Cambodia with top scores?? More fab than your kid I bet. Add in one who LOVES ( not necessarily excels in) athletics (and didn’t just suffer through it to round out their high school experience) and not look too bookish and that’s pretty much more FAB than your Asian child too…

I give more credit to a kid with a 3.5 from a poverty stricken neighborhood who got teased for doing homework ( this was me - I lived in a housing project ) I desperately more wanted to hang out till midnight causing trouble than to stay in and study, but I did… and it paid off. I was attacked for my walkman ( yes I am old) and ended up stabbed in the stomach and spent 2 months in the hospital ( and still got straight A’s since my mother made sure I got my schoolwork done).

Was I more fab than other kids in my school (UofP)? I never really thought so it but when I ask them now, they tell me they always thought it was amazing i was there with them (not always in a good way until they started ask me to tutor them in physics ). After coming to see me at my house my roommate’s girlfriend cried. I was never embarrassed by my situation or extra proud about what I did but yes I guess looking back and looking at my Kids who have all the privilege of my college peers it is not really amazing at all that they are so smart and well prepared for college…

My son did NOT get accepted to my alma-mater but did another Ivy (he didn’t want to go where I went anyway he said) Was it due to legacy he got into Columbia no, I don’t thinks so, he was in the top 1% of his class ,captain of Cross country, scholar athlete, holds the schools 1 mile record, started a charity to help the homeless find jobs ( because it makes him upset to see people in a country as rich as ours hungry.

BTW he did not attend, he thought the students there were to snooty for him haha.

Oh I am white ( I bet you were thinking something else), what about that, how many white kids do you know who had to deal with issues like me… pretty fab huh?

“Caltech does not admit by race. Their classes are something like 40% Asian. Caltech does not suffer from having a large percentage of Asians in prestige or by any other measure. Neither do the UCs.”

Prestige among whom? Caltech is prestigious among STEM types, but has low general awareness and social prestige. Probably most people if they know it at all know it from the Big Bang Theory. It is an outstanding school, of course.

As for the UCs not “suffering” - again you’re taking a California centric view of the world. The UCs are invisible outside California.

Caltech is ranked #10 on US News (not that that’s the be all and end all). And yes, the UCs are not suffering at all. 5 of the top 10 public universities on US News are UCs.

Really in California the east coast schools are invisible. Most of the top students want to go to either the UCs, Caltech, Stanford or USC. They don’t want to leave and go to the cold north when there are so many excellent and much more affordable schools here. And there is a sense among those who are the top students at California high schools that if they have the grades and the scores, the A-G courses required and some community service, that they will be treated fairly by admissions without regard to their skin color. There is no public sentiment to roll back the proposition that eliminated racial preferences at the UCs.

The new strategy: do a Dolezal

LOL…wear a UC (fill in your favorite letters here) T-shirt just about anywhere and you will get a comment or a question. Wear a - pick your non top 10 elite East Coast university and you will most likely not be stopped on the streets of - say Berlin or Dallas - and be asked about your life and experience.

Sorry Pizzagirl. As far as actual lore and mystique - CA still has it over most places of the US.

Over NYC? Dream on!

UC instate tuition is $13K which won’t buy you a cup of coffee at any other top 30 school. why would anyone give this up ?

For non-Cal residents, only Va, Mich and NC have a cheap top 30 option.

Now OOS tuition at 35+ is painful, which is why most east coasters find cheaper options in the snow belt or other areas.

Standford and Caltech are so special, no one will turn them down. They just toughen up and endure the horrors of Palo Alto and Pasadena (and Caltech is the prettiest campus imaginable).

USC is filled with beautiful people and is in LA (Watts really, but well, it’s special).

Combined with terrific weather - and 10 good UCs more CalPolys, guaranteed CC->UC path)

California is the promised land, just needs a lot less people …

@PickOne1 For most middle class families, an ivy league or top private is cheaper/much cheaper than UCs with FA. Its really only for the upper middle class/upper class families that receive no FA at top privates where UCs are cheaper.

But yes, Berkeley has much better name recognition than Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown (IMO a much better school too), and probably even Penn and Columbia.

@puzzled123 Where does Berkeley have more name recognition?

This is simply a FALSE characterization.

(1) East Coast schools are very visible among Californians. Most ambitious students apply to several East Coast schools along with UC, USC, and Stanford. That’s “even” if those students are STEM and specifically the “T,” and even if they’re enamored of the SV and have connections there through internships & parents’ associates. If given options, they often prefer, for example, CMU to UC.

(2) Many Californians are clueless, however, regarding East Coast schools and the very different culture on that coast vs. the west coast. They often assume the coasts are interchangeable (or wish they were), which is one of the many reasons so many are unsuited to a move.

(3) Many students who apply at both coasts nevertheless settle for a UC unless they succeed in an acceptance to H, Y, or P, which they rarely do. For example, if they are accepted to Cornell, they usually choose a U.C. instead.

(4) “Fairness” in UC admission has been severely compromised by the 20% overall OOS admission offers among all UC campuses, and the 30% to UCLA and Berkeley. Many of those acceptances include grades and scores which are seriously non-competitive with in-state applicants’ accomplishments.

Circling back to the original topic of this thread. A year ago, there was a fledgling effort by some state legislators to roll back some of the provisions of Prop. 209 (which eliminated racial preferences in admissions to state universities). When word got out there was a grass roots effort among Asians to kill that bill before it even got out of committee. They got signatures, applied pressure and the bill was DOA.

^pulling up the ladder…

I should add that graduation rates at the UCs among URMs have improved since Prop 209.

I can only comment from a science education perspective and things I found as I think Berkeley is a better school OVERALL than many east coast privates and it thus deserves the name recognition and fame (mainly from the caliber of faculty research and graduate programs),but I would argue that the caliber of many of the undergraduate programs (except maybe engineering) is just as good if not better than Berkeley at many east coast and top midwestern schools (including ones with less lay prestige such as my alma mater). This doesn’t really result from these schools really “trying” to be better, but mainly just because they have lower enrollments and can thus give a good curriculum (especially in the sciences) to more students, whereas, unless you’re Michigan (known for broad sweeping changes in science education that cater to the masses of students) a public school with very large enrollment will have a harder time doing that for most students. One thing that Berkeley does as well as the very top schools is tiering its courses to cater to the “very” top talent among incoming and outgoing students (as in it has honors courses and special courses for students with extremely strong preparation, even strong in comparison to what is an overall very well-prepped student body. For example, Berkeley is more likely to have an equivalent to Harvard’s math 55 or physics 16). In my opinion, most schools below say rank of 15 (many schools such as Penn and Northwestern are above 15 and only recently instituted tracks such as integrated science programs which will cater to the more ambitious among STEM oriented students) are not as effective in doing this (for example, for physics, there may be only 2 or 3. One for poets, a non-calc or calc. based for pre-meds and a calc. based one for engineering students whereas Berkeley and places like HYPSMCalt and Chicago will offer even more “intro” courses, some that even cater to those interested in more abstract math and physics. Emory produced a Goldwater this past cycle who was a math major. Apparently our curriculum for undergrads in math is so underwhelming for a student like him that he was taking grad. courses as a sophomore and this isn’t the only time that this has happened…no surprise that they will finally offer honors courses for freshmen starting this fall).

The curriculum provided to the “masses” (especially at the introductor level) seems stronger at most places (like I’ve compared course materials like general chemistry, organic chemistry, general biology at Berkeley with some of the less famous top privates like mine and at very worst, these schools would have an instructor on par with a more difficult instructor at Berkeley, but many times, it would be a bit tougher. I notice that, unfortunately, general chemistry at Berkeley has gone back to multiple choice which is kind of sad…the same can be said for biology) but very top talent can often just breeze through the coursework at these schools (I will also admit that Berkeley was better at providing challenging advanced courses than many places which had limited offerings to begin with. This is especially the case in the natural/life sciences), which is not what you want unless the student is pre-professional or something (and thus just needs very high grades so may still choose easier instructors/courses even if given the opportunity to do more. Clearly you want to challenge these students enough for them to be prepared, but you don’t want to break them to the point where they are not competitive. It is much less risky to challenge non-prehealth students). You want to train people who plan to go on to get a PhD in STEM subjects very well (as you don’t just want them to get PhD’s, they should become leaders in their fields), and you cannot do this by shortchanging the best among those seriously considering studying said subjects at the graduate level by making them start on the same track as students with much less ability and preparation in the area in question. So I would just in general say that Berkeley’s undergraduate program really knows how to treat the very top of the applicant pool well and make them the best, but I wouldn’t scoff at the baseline level of undergraduate education at even the less prestigious among the top ranked private schools.

Also, I don’t know if I would be criticizing the private schools’ admissions schemes so much considering the fact that, Berkeley, while having extremely high stats for a public school (as does Michigan, Georgia Tech, and Virginia), is still, after 209, getting the same level of students as my alma mater, Emory. Emory is basically the bottom of the top 20-25 schools in terms of prestige (okay, well, other than Cornell and Brown, I suppose it is similar to non-Berkeley schools between 15 and 25) and scores and has been for a while (maybe along with Georgetown?). The fact that it can have “holistic” admissions and still get similar caliber students to a much more famous place like Berkeley is kind of telling. The admissions are not as random as one make them out to be. The scores at all of these schools are still abnormally high, but people would just rather worry themselves sick over who most of the bottom 25% are and how they got there. A good question may be to ask: Is Berkeley that much different? The amounts of URMs declined at such a school, but did those bottom 25% start going to Asians and whites or did the bottom quartile just raise itself simply because they stopped admitting very subpar URMs whereas a place like Emory or Georgetown was already admitting “decent” (I would honestly say anything 1200/1600 and higher is reasonable for most to be considered) ones to begin with?