the truth about ivies and elite schools

Parents Forum
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<p>purpletitan, If my statement is “disprovable” then prove it’s wrong. Top colleges do track what happens to kids who get in and turn them down. As others have noted, for the majority of Americans, i.e., those earning less than about $150,000 a year, there isn’t a financial incentive to go to a state school over HYPSMC. And if 80% of those who are admitted to Harvard attend, I don’t see how you can claim that a lot of people turn them down for financial reasons. </p>

<p>Now, you may be saying that lots of people don’t APPLY for financial reasons. Even if that’s the case, I think it is extremely unlikely that a higher percentage of them would be admitted than the percentage of actual applicants. And, it only makes sense to apply to your state school over Harvard for financial reasons if you make more than about $150,000 or so. So, we still aren’t talking about a heck of a lot of people. `</p>

<p>Part of our differences may be due to the fact that you apparently live in California, which has good public Us. While NY state schools are okay, none of them are --well as prestigious–as Berkeley. So, it’s really pretty rare for the kids at the top of the class to go to a SUNY. As a practical matter, OOS publics like UVa, UNC-CH, Berkeley, Michigan, etc. cost just as much as HYPS. And, they give worse fin aid to OOS students than HYPS do. The kids who go to them from my neighborhood and my kid’s alma mater are the kids who didn’t get into HYPS or MIT. Now and again, there’s an exception for a kid whose non-custodial parent won’t pay. Otherwise, the kid who gets into MIT or Stanford or Harvard goes there–not to a SUNY. And they certainly don’t go to OOS publics. Those are safeties for kids aiming for the elites, usually only those who are NOT applying for fin aid. So 13 kids got into Berkeley,but 2 enrolled from the classes of 2012 and 2013 from my offspring’s old high school. 20 got into Harvard and 17 enrolled, I doubt very much that all 3 went elsewhere for fin aid reasons–and even some of those who did probably got better aid packages from another elite school. </p>

<p>As for your “dig” at me personally, I live in one of the most socioeconomically diverse communities in NYC and my offspring attended a public magnet. So, I know a lot of different kinds of people. Kids who aren’t great high school students and are from families of limited means tend to go to CUNYs here–they don’t go “away” at all. Some with better high school records live at home and go to local schools, including NYU, Fordham, Pace, Barnard, Cooper Union, Yeshiva, etc. ( NY state has some tuition assistance programs that low-income students can use at private schools in NY state but which can’t be used OOS.)</p>

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<p>I’d call this (what I think Bay implies) the “He who Fights Monsters” syndrome: one’s tendency to lash out against others for their moral depravity while falling prey to that very depravity. </p>

<p>The perceived smugness and self-satisfaction of the elite institutions is the kind of thing that destroyed the Ancien Régime, but why should one presume to counteract them only to become a Robespierre?</p>

<p>Another technique: call your adversaries provincial, unsophisticated, shallow, uneducated, uncivil, loutish, foolish, enemies of society, without referring to any concrete group of people. A form of fearmongering.</p>

<p>cf. Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France
Robespierre, On the Moral and Political Principles of Domestic Policy</p>

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<p>@jonri:</p>

<p>The percentage of families in the US making over 150K and the percentage of families making 150K among the group with kids who have the potential to get in to an elite private are quite different (call it unfortunate if you like; I would), but that’s reality in the US.</p>

<p>I do agree that what state you’re in does matter when it comes to the quality of your publics. In that sense, the folks in CA, MI, VA, TX, & NC (about 1/3rd the population of the US) are lucky. Folks in IL , FL, GA, IN, WA, NM, WI (and MN through WI) as well if they desire some disciplines or type of environment (adding up to roughly half the population of the country).</p>

<p>In NYS, you have Cornell’s contract colleges. Granted, a limited number of majors and still expensive (though CC/SUNY & transfer to a Cornell contract college is a cheaper way).</p>

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<p>I’m feeling like I can withstand the criticism that’s sure to come, so I think I’ll finally jump in here and bring this back to the original article linked, specifically the bullet point about networking. ;)</p>

<p>My kids went to two very different schools: Ds1 went to a top 10 LAC that I had never heard of until joining cc (and few people in my neck of my woods have heard of it so for all its top rank it’s definitely not prestigious around here); ds2 is at one of those “elite” schools, a top 20 private uni that everyone has heard of. Personally, I am always amused by how people repeat the name back to me, knowingly and with a smile. And I get mad on behalf of ds1’s LAC, which is just as fabulous in different ways but doesn’t get the seal of approval that the other school does.</p>

<p>I couldn’t bear to attend ds2’s elite school. Don’t get me wrong; he loves it, and, really, his experiences have been overwhelmingly positive. Amazing, in fact. But, to me, the kids always feel “on.” I don’t mean that critically, just an observation. And by “on,” I don’t mean they are behaving in a fake manner; I mean that they have self-internalized being busy what seems like every minute of the day. Now, don’t mistake that with getting straight A’s. Like the writer, ds is perfectly happy with a his mid-3.something – as long as he is making connections, meeting people, doing meaningful club work. And, wow, the process to get into a club. Why is it so competitive to want to do good works? He was rejected from a prison ministry and one mentoring kids in inner-city schools. Oh well. He did find some activities where he feels like he’s making a difference, so it’s worked out.</p>

<p>Like the article said, so much of his experience happens outside the classroom. You probably wouldn’t believe me if I told you all the people he’s met in his first year there via lectures, receptions, book talks, etc. He really is living the dream. :slight_smile: And, wow, some of his classmates are RICH. I mean, parents with Wikipedia pages worth billions of dollars. lol I’m not sure why that surprised me, but it did. I agree with the author about the importance of networking at ds’s school. That certainly wasn’t what I was seeking for him when we visited the school, but it turns out that making connections and networking is a huge part of the culture on his campus. Ds would no doubt agree with the author’s line: “Graduating with a lower GPA and a better network is the way to go, if you ask me.” As long as that GPA doesn’t get too low! I absolutely believe that his first job will come from connections via classmates and the pipeline from his school to certain industries/companies. I’m OK with that. It’s a benefit I didn’t expect when we looked at the school. Is he getting a great education? Yes. But there have been so many unexpected benefits to attending a “name” school, and I’d be silly and disingenuous to not 1) recognize them and 2) appreciate them.</p>

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<p>@Youdon’tsay:</p>

<p>Why do you expect criticism? BTW, how’s the network at the LAC?</p>

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<p>PT, because I think what I’ve written kind of makes ds2 sound like a bit of a lightweight – or at least the kind of kid a lot of ccer’s don’t hold in high regard – outgoing, a joiner, high EQ, BMOC kind of kid. Some see those qualities as positive; lots on here don’t. I’m used to it. :)</p>

<p>Hmmmm, the LAC network was the no. 1 drawback to me when ds chose it. His second choice was a state flagship with a rabidly loyal alumni network. He really had no idea what he wanted to do after graduation. If he knew academia or grad school, I think the LAC was a better bet, but if he wanted to move home and get a job, the flagship was the better option. As it is, he has moved home and will be working an AmeriCorps job. I’m not sure the LAC’s name helped him get the job, but his experiences there certainly did (TriO peer leader, etc.). The LAC, in its own way, has a very loyal alumni network, but it’s definitely smaller (after all, fewer than 500 kids graduate each year) and is more low-key. I think the friendships/bonds made there will benefit him his entire life, but not in the “work for my daddy in i-banking” kind of way. ;)</p>

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<p>You mean people who got into Yale before 1990 were not so interesting or special? I mean any yahoo could get in with a 19% acceptance rate, even USC has lower than that today, I believe it’s 18%.</p>

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<p>@Youdon’tsay:</p>

<p>I would expect a LAC’s alum network to be very small but very tight. So maybe only 5 alums in IBanking, but if he wants to try to break in to the industry and contacts them, all 5 of them will try to help even if they didn’t know him at all.</p>

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<p>Different schools calculate EFC differently, and have different ESCs, so their net prices can vary significantly for the same family financial situation.</p>

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<p>True. I would be a little surprised if FAFSA, Profile, and Consensus schools all gave the same EFC (and there are usually differences between schools as well; and some schools are willing to increase fin aid amounts to get a student). Also, there are merit scholarships.</p>

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<p>Even the SUNYs (and other northeastern publics like Rutgers and UMass - Amherst) are not bad, and are very good for some subjects, despite being looked down upon.</p>

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<p>Very true. UMD & PSU as well.</p>

<p>In fact, UMD, PSU, Pitt, Rutgers, SUNY-Buffalo, and Stony Brook are all AAU research universities (so at the highest tier of research universities in the US), and I can name departments at each of those schools that are top-notch.</p>

<p>It’s ironic that Stony Brook is a better university than, say, LSU, but Louisianans seem to have more pride in LSU than New Yorkers do in Stony Brook.
The Northeast is most definitely the most snobbish place in the country when it comes to public schools.</p>

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I believe DS have met many of these “always-on” kids, even though he did not use this term to describe his fellow students.</p>

<p>The following are what I heard from him about these fellow students:</p>

<p>XXX never stops studying, especially after she has received a not so perfect grade in ONE class.</p>

<p>Every student in that class comes to the TA-led session very well prepared. It is as if the students compete on who are the most prepared ones.</p>

<p>If XXX does not have a class until mid afternoon on a particular day, he would still go to the cafeteria at 8:00 am, eating breakfast first and then studying almost non-stop till almost 3:00 pm when his class starts. He does this on a regular basis, not just before the midterm or final.</p>

<p>XXX often studies till he falls asleep, while still sitting in front of his desk. He studies a lot but I do not think he studies very efficiently.</p>

<p>It is as if XXX never sleeps. She often takes two more classes than everybody else does. And those two additional classes are demanding ones.</p>

<p>Many of students study more than 12 hours a day, A few of them even 13 hours everyday. (granted, this is not at a college, and it happened only in the 1.5-2 months before that important test.)</p>

<p>XXX is smarter than me. But his real strength is that he is so organized about everything. It seems he would never be surprised by anything because he is on top of everything before it needs to be taken care of.</p>

<p>How did he notice all of these if he himself did not care so much about it?!</p>

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<p>Large part of that is LSU has been around much longer (Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman of March through Georgia/to Sea fame was the Superintendent of LSU right before the Civil War). Consequently, LSU has a much longer history with rich traditions to go with it.</p>

<p>There’s also the factor that SUNY-SB’s location in a upper-middle class suburban residential area of Long Island means there aren’t too many places in town for students to go to enjoy themselves.</p>

<p>It also tends to draw a critical mass of students from areas close enough for it to be a “suitcase school” when weekends roll around. Especially considering there’s not much on campus or in town to keep students on-campus unless they have no other options. </p>

<p>My impression is that LSU doesn’t have as much of a problem in those areas. </p>

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<p>You have to allow for the increased average number of applications per student, the degree of self-selection, and many other factors.</p>

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<p>From the article:
“4) The true value is in the network, NOT the classes.”
Wait. I though that the network was the only reason that one chooses an elite college. Not sure why the author was so surprised.</p>

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<p>@cobrat:
Ah, true. College in the US: part seat of learning, part institute of research, part country club, and part vacation destination. I’m fairly certain that most kids in Western Europe or Asia don’t pick where they go to university based on how beautiful the buildings are or the dorm amenities.</p>

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<p>Yeah. I’m not sure about that. I have one who was admitted to one of the HYP, etc… schools, and chose to go to another school, which really annoyed me at the time, honestly, but her life, her choice. At this point she seems to be bearing out the adage, “it’s the kid, not the school,” since she’s excelling out in the world in a field its apparently difficult to enter at all.</p>

<p>The other one is at a state flagship anyone but an engineering major would want to attend, and I have to bribe her to stay in college at all, since all she wants to do is get to the CIA and get her culinary degree. B-) I mean, honestly, a math and philosophy major who would rather cook?! I have very annoying children. Said in a loving way.</p>

<p>But, we are from an SES group with a lot of networking possibilities, and even though oldest has built her own network, based on relationships she built over her internship years, what she learned from us about entertaining and communicating and coffee and drinks and invitations and thank you notes has a lot to do with how she did that. </p>

<p>Still, I think any kid ought to consider an elite school if they can afford it. Not considering it, or not having a damn good reason for choosing something else, for my kid it was a love of Extreme sports and the Rockies, for someone else it might be affordability, is short sighted. JMO</p>

<p>Oh, and edited to add: At the time my oldest made this choice, I thought it was very short sighted and told her she had to maintain a grad school level admissions GPA and promise to take the GRE or GMAT before leaving school, or we would not pay, at all. I figured she’d have to go right to grad school. I was wrong. She likes to point that out to me. </p>

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I think I can answer this, at least as far as my own observations go. I went to Yale in the late 70’s, and I think that I (and my classmates) were a bunch of smart, talented, and fascinating people. (I may be a bit biased.) I have a kid there now, and one who recently graduated, and the student body is similar in many ways–but there are some noticeable differences. First, it’s a lot more diverse. But what one really notices is that many, probably most, of the students have accomplished a lot in high school. They’ve won a lot of prizes, been on “From The Top,” written books, and on and on. I think there are probably more opportunities for stuff like that now, but I also think that a more nationwide (and global) admissions pool, and a much larger pool, is allowing Yale to focus on that kind of applicant. I think I was a pretty interesting person back when I went, but I don’t think I would have looked as interesting on paper as today’s applicants do.</p>

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<p>I think this is dead on. It seems for many the definition of pompous is … showing any pride or mention of any school ranked higher than my kid’s school. E.g., my putting a school sticker on the window is showing pride in my child and the school however anyone with Harvard or Duke or Northwestern sticker is a pompous ego-driven prestige whore.</p>

<p>Awhile back there was a thread how highly-selective school grads respond to questions about where they went to school. My experience has been whichever choice I make a substantial number of people seem to think I’m a pompous ego-driven prestige whore … for some I’m wrong whichever choice I make.</p>

<p>I think this is another case where confirmation bias comes into play in a big way … a lot of us “see” evidence that supports our existing views of schools.</p>