<p>@3togo:</p>
<p>It’s all in the presentation.</p>
<p>You should act as shocked when you say you attended HYPSMCCCCCCC as your listeners are when they find that out. ;)</p>
<p>“Not considering it, or not having a damn good reason for choosing something else, is short sighted.”</p>
<p>That’s how I advise my students: if you have an admissions shot at HYPS, you need to consider taking it. If you investigate them and conclude that they are wrong for you for some well-considered reasons, then I respect that 100%. I don’t think they’re right for everybody; I just think they’re special enough to merit a look from every star applicant.</p>
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<p>Precisely. It takes a lot more to get in these days than it did 20 years ago. In fact, I believe it takes a lot more to get in today than it did 2 years ago. I am dreading next year’s application season and believe my younger kid won’t be able to get into the same schools as my older one with the same credentials but 4 years later.</p>
<p>Even accounting for the recentering of the SAT, Yalies’ test scores are higher now, too. That’s true virtually everywhere.</p>
<p>@Hanna:</p>
<p>Personally, I feel the same about Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore (and CalTech/MIT/Mudd/Olin . . . and Chicago/Northwestern/Duke/Rice, as kids have geographical preferences).</p>
<p>Test scores are higher today because students take it multiple times and get tutored. It used to be once a year and done.</p>
<p>^^Huh? Have I been misunderstanding completely what PurpleTitan has been trying to say in this thread? He or she is only debating which of a short list of usual suspects has extra value, not whether extra value exists at any college?</p>
<p>To say that Northwestern, Duke or Swarthmore does not provide a lot less value than “ivies” is . . . kind of obvious. I think it’s also kind of obvious that if there is a handful of public universities as to which, if there is a significant price difference to a student between the public and, say, Harvard (and maybe depending in some part on the student’s interests), it would be hard to justify paying the premium for Harvard based on anything other than luxury value and bragging rights. Berkeley, where the article’s author went, is certainly one of them.</p>
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<p>However, most of the top universities in Western Europe or Asia are located in areas with more places for undergrads to enjoy themselves when taking a break from academics and more history/traditions than SUNY-SB. Understandable considering its location in a sedate upper-middle class Long Island suburb and the fact it was founded in the late 1950’s. </p>
<p>Also, regarding elite Asian universities I know of…especially Japan’s, the hardest part IS getting in. Once you’re in, the academic culture is actually much more relaxed than in US respectable/elite universities. </p>
<p>One good illustration of this were alums from Wasada and Keio Us(tied for #3 in Japan at the time with the former being known for arts/humanities/social sciences, the latter known for its sciences). </p>
<p>Both recounted how Profs request lecture halls/seminar rooms accommodating only 1/4 of the registered students because in their experience, that’s the proportion of students who’d show up on regular days outside of exams. On exam days, most students would be taking exams on the floor and even out into the hallways outside of the classroom because there isn’t enough room to accommodate the 3/4 who tend to skip out on regular class days. </p>
<p>There’s also a decades-long tradition of students taking long road trips around Japan where they may be out of school for several weeks at a stretch DURING THE ACADEMIC TERM. No worries, the Japanese college admins and society figured “They worked so hard from K-12 to get admitted to college, they deserve a break during their undergrad years.” </p>
<p>Only in the last year when graduating students are preparing for highly competitive civil service exams to the most prestigious government departments(i.e. MITI/METI) or a management trainee position in a Japanese corporate conglomerate will most get serious about studying. </p>
<p>I know several parents locally whose kids attend Berkeley as full pay OOS. The fact that they find an added value over U Texas to be able to shell out an extra 30-35k per year can not be perceived as being done for bragging rights. As long as the consumer is content spending their hard earned money on a specific perceived value, who are we to write it off as bragging rights?</p>
<p>@cobrat: Japan is kind of unique/different. Possibly because their society is probably the most regimented in the first world (so college is seen as an earned 4 year vacation between a life of grinding away both before and after). I daresay that students in the universities and ecoles in France and the Netherlands don’t have the same experience.</p>
<p>@JHS:
Not sure what you are saying? But I do think it’s a bit ridiculous when people try to blow up the differences between the very best schools in this country and a good public in to something bigger than they are.</p>
<p>In reality (and I believe research has shown this), there’s a bigger difference in opportunity/outcomes between a good flagship (or decent private) and the lowest levels of higher education in this country.</p>
<p>What about the kids who visit their good state public and hate it? (Like my D). Are we parents supposed to force them to go there anyway because they are cheaper, even if we can afford full-pay at HYP et al?</p>
<p>If you can afford a BMW, and your kid likes it better than a Honda, and you feel like buying your kid a BMW, why should anybody else care?</p>
<p>^ I don’t know, but a lot of people seem to want to judge others’ decisions to do so.</p>
<p>@Bay:</p>
<p>Nah, go for it. Just don’t delude yourself in to thinking that the school they went to is light-years better for all kids there* than the school they didn’t go to (even if you’re spending a lot more money).</p>
<p><em>disclaimer because for some industries, going to certain schools is more advantageous, and certain schools have better alumni networks than others (though there are big differences even among schools in the same academic tier in that aspect, and it differs by industry and geography). Also, many of the LACs punch above their weight</em>*, so to speak, in alumni outcomes given their incoming students. However, for many/most kids, their own personal qualities and what they do matters way, way, way more than whether they went to HYPS or a good public.</p>
<p>**there is one LAC, however, highly ranked in USN, which I have heard is flat out lying about its numbers, and when you look at its grad outcomes, they are measurably worse than the LACs around it in the ranking.</p>
<p>Round 5000 in the ego vs. sour grapes smackdown.</p>
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<p>Delude myself? If you haven’t noticed, PurpleTitan, I’ve been reading this website for longer than most, so I’m pretty well informed about what I’m getting. And trust me, I (and other parents whose kids go to Ivies) have heard every tale/insult/opinion/study in the book about the value of our kids education.</p>
<p>@Bay:
Yet you still go around thinking that while the kids at Cal are uninteresting, the kids at the school your D go to are more interesting. In fact, you felt compelled to point that out.</p>
<p>PurpleTitan, why be coy? Which LAC have you heard this about? Who have you heard it from?</p>
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<p>While Japan’s an extreme case when it comes to elite Asian colleges, the overall academic culture of most other Asian countries is still much more relaxed than what exists in respectable/elite US colleges.</p>
<p>Some of this is reflected in parts of my extended family as the ones who attended elite Us in the ROC(Taiwan)…including one who transferred and finished at a non-HYP Ivy in the '50s found the academic workload and expectations to be higher. </p>
<p>Granted, in their case, this relatively more relaxed academic atmosphere was counteracted by an exceedingly competitive college entrance exam*, rigorous academic HS curricula, and the fact everyone was subjected to civil defense training and all men were mandated to serve 2 years in the military with few exemptions due to the geopolitical climate of that time. </p>
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<li>As late as 2005, the competition for college places was such 1/3 of examinees failed to score high enough to be admitted to any 4-year college. Keep in mind the competition was much more stiff in the '50s due to a flood of Mainland refugees who weren’t able to finish their college educations before 1949 and the fact there were only 3-4 4-year colleges whose sizes were comparable to a medium sized US LAC.<br></li>
</ul>