the ultimate debate: Mac or PC?

College Majors Architecture Major
1

<p>i know this topic has probably come up within this forum, but i am so confused right now, it isnt even funny. </p>

<p>i was thinking about getting the mac book pro, but today (actually 10 minutes ago) i called the computer guy in the architecture department at cornell and he told me that all of the software is PC based, and unless i dont mind tinkering with some parallel software to convert the programs from PC to Mac, then i should go with the mac. and he also said that if i get a mac, i would need to get a windows license (?). </p>

<p>i thought the mac book pros have amazing graphics (obviously needed for the 3D programs), so thats what i was initially thinking to justify to my parents why i need a mac book pro. </p>

<p>but then the guy tells me that i should get a window XP-because that is what all of their software is now-and get a Vista license (since they are going to change their software over to vista within the next 2/3 years), but all of the PCs are vistas now! OMG i am so overwhelmed....gosh what did architecture students do before computers? obviously not be as stressed! :D</p>

2

<p>I'm a very UN techy person and my disclaimer is that I am not the one to ask about specifics! But my opinion is to go with the kind of computer that your arch program prefers and has all its software on and it sounds like at Cornell, that will be PC based. For that reason, it seems like you will need a PC. </p>

<p>MY daughter, who is studying architecture in a BA program, got a Mac laptop for college because our family has always used Macs. However, when she went to take an arch digital representation course at RISD, all of the required programs were only on PC and all of their arch students were told to buy the PCs and software upon entering. So, for her to participate, she had to ALSO buy a PC and all the requisite software. So, now she has TWO laptops.....she uses the Mac for school, but the PC for the arch software. So, in that regard, since you are entering a BArch program, I would go with the type of computer that will be able to use the software that your program will want you to learn and some of that software is not necessarily available on a Mac. Other than that, I would have said get a Mac; they're great. But you likely can't run the software you need for your degree program on the Mac, which may necessitate getting a PC. Get what your program recommends.</p>

3

<p>If you get a MacBook Pro, you will indeed have to run Parallels or Bootcamp. I'm not sure why exactly (as I have a PC at the moment) but most archi-types I know seem to prefer Bootcamp to Parallels. Anyway, AutoCAD/Architectural Desktop and 3DStudio are both PC based programs, and they're what most architecture students use most of the time. Other programs to look up data for are Rhino, VRay, Maxwell, and Artlantis. FormZ and ArchiCAD both definitely run on Mac (as well as Windows if I remember correctly). </p>

<p>Network-wise, there's not much difference anymore since Apple switched over to Intel cards, so the only issue is whether you want to go through the pain of switching between operating systems for different types of work.</p>

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<p>but can i get autocad/3D studio on a macbook pro? will it still work?</p>

5

<p>yes, but you would have to run a Windows operating system (either parallel to OS-whatever-we're-on-now via Parallels, or in a separate drive partition via Bootcamp), and those programs would only run on the Windows side of things.</p>

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<p>ok so if i wind up with the macbook pro, as long as i have Bootcamp or Parallels, i can do anything that a PC can do...?</p>

<p>so lets say i have a mac with bootcamp/parallels. i just pop in the disk to install autocad and it will work?</p>

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<p>My daugher is going into architecture and the laptop requirements were interesting at her school. The art department only recommend a Mac. Business & Science require a PC with Windows. Architecture says either /or AS LONG AS the students also run Windows on the Apple using Bootcamp (not Parallels). Autocad and a few other architecture programs (which they use in 3rd year). ONLY run on Windows. Adobe Create Suite (which they use the first/second year) supposedly runs better on a Mac (using the Mac written program). However, it is my understanding that with Bootcamp you can only "boot" the machine in either/or operating system, at any one time. You could not have both running simultaneously. You could not cut and paste something running in Mac to a Word Document running in Windows, for example. You would need to copy to a disk, reboot, then copy from the disk. That sounds like a royal pain.</p>

<p>We've narrowed our choices to two 15.4" laptops, using the university packaging. We figured the Mac was the best way to go, since it could do both. The Mac is more expensive than the PC for similar specs. For the same price range, we would be sacrificing video card (128mb for the Mac, 512mb for the Dell), and memory speed (5400 for the Mac, and 7200 for the Dell). Most of the remaining specs appear similar, except for warranty. The Dell comes with a no-fault policy -- it is replaced if you spill coffee on it or drop it. Apple only comes with a 3 year max. equipment warranty. The no-fault would be really nice insurance for a college student! But we're still leaning Mac because of the dual operating systems.</p>

<p>So, just as confused as you, we headed to the Apple store with a list of questions. There's no "Dell store" nearby to do the same. Please note, these are answers given by the Apple sales rep. and obviously biased.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Q. WHY is the Mac better for graphics? A: Because it compartmentalizes its graphic memory. You can run multiple visual programs at the same time (such as Adobe Photoshop, and Sketchbook) and it will not slow any of them down. You can easily run several on the same screen and hop back and forth between them (although it would be too small to see anything!). We had also heard from previous users that the Apple that screen was better, the box was better, the graphic programs were written for the way a Mac operates, etc. No one "in the know" however substantiated those claims. Most thought it was an old belief by Mac-lovers who are very loyal. They agreed it USED to be true that graphic programs for the Mac were better, but that gap is filling.</p>

<ol>
<li>Q. Can you run both operating systems at the same time, or do you literally have to re-boot if you want to run Autocad and Adobe Photo written for the Mac, at the same time?: A: You can run both Windows and Tiger at the same time using Parallels. You may sacrifice speed. HOWEVER, I'm hesitant on this one. The sales rep had never used Parallels personally, so I would like to verify with a few other users first.</li>
<li>Q. What will we be sacrificing by using the smaller graphics card offered on the Mac.? A: Not much because graphics cards are not used with many programs except for 3d. Since the Mac is more effecient processing graphics, it will not be noticable using the smaller graphics card. You might lose some gaming capability, but not for most programs required by universities. Again...this was an Apple salesperson, and I'm a little skeptical on this answer. He even said AutoCad does not use a graphics card. ????? That made no sense to me, but someone in the computer know, please advise.</li>
<li>In the sales person's defense, we were considering purchasing an add-on package that came with a larger monitor. I could not imagine trying to work with AutoCad (or any graphic program) on a 15" monitor. But we didn't want to go to the larger 17" screen and sacrifice the whole reason for a laptop (portability). He suggested we NOT buy the larger monitor package through Apple, but rather search for other more reasonably priced third party monitors. SHHHHH!</li>
<li>Can you upgrade the graphics card later? A: No. You can upgrade memory, but he would not advise it now, because laptop memory is so expensive. Better to wait until you need it, and it is cheaper. Even better, just add a remote hard-drive if it is ever needed.</li>
</ol></li>
</ol>

<p>I don't know if any of this helps, or adds to the confusion. If anyone knows differently, or has additional advice, PLEASE post as well</p>

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<p>laurstar- yes, although the installation may have a couple extra steps to make sure you got it associated with the right operating system. But, see kjofkw's description of transferring files between the mac side and the pc side of things. This would be especially painful when you wanted to bring pdf prints of autocad files into illustrator for graphic work, or bring renderings from 3DStudio to Photoshop for touchup work or to Illustrator to place in a larger layout. I have a feeling that if this were me, I'd end up running everything on the Windows side out of laziness. But that's a personal call.</p>

<p>kjofkw- re: graphics card. 128MB vs. 512MB is a big enough difference that I'd seriously consider going with the Dell. Or, well- is the laptop going to be her only computer? If so, she really, really, really needs a good graphics card. Renderings in 3d programs can take hours on even the best of machines, and can take days on an insufficient graphics card. While this may seem at the moment like "oh, it's only one or two programs, it's not a big deal," the fact is that the architecture world is shifting away from 2D drafting and into complete 3D documentation programs, so this will most likely be a decent chunk of her computer use. For perspective, I graduated in 2005, and I'd say that my breakdown of usage was about 40% AutoCAD, 20% Adobe, 20% 3D, and 20% Other (internet, word, excel, powerpoint, solitaire, random structural calculation programs). Having a computer that was insufficient for 20% of my workload would have made me extremely frustrated, and my bet would be that 3D programs are more than 20% of an arch student's computer use by now.</p>

<p>However, if this is her portable and she'll have a desktop on which she can render things, then I think it would be ok to go with a lesser laptop with the knowledge that heavy 3D work would need to be done on the desktop. As an only computer, the mid-range MacBook Pro (15.4", 2.4Ghz, 256MB graphics) seems the best value of the Apple products to me. I was also under the impression that all programs used the graphics card to some extent- maybe what the rep meant was just the AutoCAD's graphics needs did not exceed the 128MB card's capabilities?</p>

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<p>i will only get a laptop.</p>

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<p>Thanks larationalist! I just checked the university website. They did not originally offer the 256mb graphics card on the MacPro. It was only the 128. However, the Apple rep said the 256 was a standard upgrade, and they had plenty of them in stock. Hunting around the university website, I found another source which showed the 256 option, so I'm checking. However it is $500 more than the 128 option. Never an easy answer!</p>

<p>So, now it is down to the Dell Latitude D820 for around $2000 (quick specs: 2.0GH duo Core processor, NVidia Quadro NVS 120M 512MB video card, 2GB memory, 100 GB (7200 RPM) hard drive, Vista. VS the MacBook Pro for $1900 (2.2GH Duo Core, NVIDIA GeForce 8600 GT 128MB video card, 120GB(5400 rpm) harddrive, Tiger. For $500 extra, the Mac can be upgraded to 2.4 GH processor, the 256MB video card, and 160GB(but still 5400rpm) hard drive.</p>

<p>So you think the 256 graphics card is worth that $500 difference? Or still go w/ the Dell? To add to the confusion and concern, should she switch majors, it would most likely be into an arts field which ONLY recommend the Mac. She will only have 1 laptop computer, so we need to make this one do the most.</p>

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<p>In our office we did a test of Mac's vs. PC's. We have to run Windows because our core programs are Autocad/Revit/Max. So we tested equal Dell and Mac machines running Windows XP (both with quad core Intel processors). The Mac was 10% quicker running Windows than the Dell machine. I have no idea why. The Mac's are a bit more expensive, but you will be under no handicap running Windows on them.</p>

<p>rick</p>

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<p>Thanks Rick.
Do you use both in your office, or was this just a test?</p>

<p>What type of graphics card did the Mac have? </p>

<p>Did you run Windows under "Bootcamp"?</p>

<p>Do you also use a lot of the Creative Suite programs (ie. Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.), and switch between operating systems, or any of the other Windows based 3d graphic intensive programs in your office? How do they perform on a Mac? </p>

<p>I'm not at all familiar w/ using the Macs. I'm learning only as a result of the college research prior to purchasing for my d. I'm guessing both will work fine. Just trying to make it last 3-4 years without having major compatibility headaches with programs.</p>

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<p>We ended up on the PC because it just was not worth it to have a mixed environment as our older computers come off of a lease. We used both Bootcamp and running it parallel, and they both seemed to perform about the same.</p>

<p>Both the Dell and the Mac were workstations so they had equally hot graphic cards, but we also had a Power Book loaner and the standard card seemed to do quite well with our applications.</p>

<p>We use the Adobe suite (Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.), as well as form.z and the operation of both was identical running in native Mac or PC. I had heard in the past that the Mac is supposed to be better at managing fonts and colors, but we have not had a problem on the PC. </p>

<p>I do think the Mac is easier to support and has fewer issues with viruses, that is why Stanford recommends it to incoming students. We bought our daughter one of the Black Mac laptops. She loves it.</p>

<p>rick</p>

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<p>is your daughter doing architecture at stanford?</p>

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<p>No, D is going to do product design. They have a very cool program with an emphasis on a multi-disciplinary, and very process oriented approach to design. After that she can decide whether to continue in product design or go for her MArch. Stanford is just starting their architecture program, and I think it will take them a while to get it up to speed.</p>

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<p>kj, since it's not just a faster graphics card but a faster processor and 40GB larger hard drive, so I would say that yes it is worth the difference. To me anyway. This is exactly the same decision I'm making for when I go to grad school in September, and I'm actually choosing to get a refurbished 2.33Ghz 15.4" w/the 256 card (or hopefully 2.4 by the time I'm ready to buy, but not sure how fast things get refurbished there) instead of a new one of the 2.2Ghz w/ 128 card. Of course I was already intending to get the Apple Protection Plan, which is why I'm willing to go refurbished (I'm also a greenie though, so predisposed towards recycled and resussitated products). So that's another option to consider. Ultimately how much that $500 is worth is up to you, but from my perspective it's the difference between being frustrated with the laptop a year or two in, and having it last comfortably through the degree program. But of course this is all opinion and estimation, and you have to decide what works best for your values, your budget, and your school. Actually, speaking of which, maybe there's someone at the architecture program office that you could speak to about this?</p>

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<p>at Cornell, they have a mac lab right in the arch. studio. Not sure what all this PC talk is about.</p>

<p>Also, my gf is in arch. at Cornell, and she's pretty much the only person of all her friends that doesn't have a mac ... and she doesn't have a Mac because I just gave her my old (well, 8 months old) windows based laptop that I had extra after I bought a mac.</p>

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<p>gomestar: did her friends have problems with converting the pc programs to be able to work on the mac?</p>

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<p>kj,
My D is in much the same position as she will be a freshman starting her first arch studio course in a department that is PC based. She is not positive that she will stay with arch, but doesn't want to have to buy another computer in a couple of years if she does. We just decided today to go with a 15" MacBook Pro 2.4GHz (for the better graphics card), bumping up the memory to 4GB (through Crucial, not Apple) and bumping up the HD to 7200 rpm ($135 educational price through Apple). She'll also get MS Office for Mac for her WP, SS & PG needs. She probably will hold off downloading bootcamp until Apple leopard comes out in October as she won't need Windows XP for awhile yet.</p>

<p>gomestar, I hear that UOregon architecture is pretty much all Mac too. However, it seems that some of the other arch schools are still more PC based.</p>

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<p>at cornell architecture, there are two computer labs. one is the PC lab and the other is the mac lab. almost always, the PC labs are full of students and the mac labs are sometimes used, but pretty empty. you would usually use max, revit, and autocad on the PC...which would explain why the PC labs are always way more full than the mac labs. you can also do photoshop and illustrator on the PC labs but since the PC labs are usually full, you would usually use those programs in the Mac labs.</p>