The Worst College Advice I've Ever Heard

College counselor at elite private school: “Indicate ‘undecided’ on your college application to show schools you are open to learning.” This is the worst college admission advice I’ve ever heard.

When I read an application, one of the first things I looked for was what you wanted to study, why, and how you wanted to use your education to do something specific and helpful in the world. You’re applying to be a scholar who works with other scholars—that is, college professors. Admission officers are talent scouts for college professors. Ideally, those professors want to teach, collaborate, and learn from students with shared academic interests.

Who do you think looks more compelling: the undecided student who writes a touching personal essay on their big Irish family? Or the student who writes about stoic philosophy, positive psychology, and says they want to become a pediatric psychologist who draws on Aurelius and Seligman to help kids flourish?

Who do you think my philosophy and psychology professors want me to pick?

“That’s awful. These kids are 17. How can you expect them to know what they want to do with their life? Isn’t that the whole point of college? And especially a liberal arts education: To explore what you want to do? Isn’t that type of educational-exploration what makes American higher education so special?”

That’s not a trivial response. I get it. Of course, one point of college is to explore different academic fields and professional interests. At most schools, you don’t declare a major until junior year. You can, and likely will, change your mind about what you want to study or do when you’re in college—or 1, 2, or 10 years after graduation.

But tactically? Advising a student to apply undecided is dead wrong. That type of advice reveals a failure to think through the perspective of an admission officer.

Try to imagine it: 50,000 of the most impressive students in the world apply for 2,000 seats. You have to decide who makes the cut. It’s hard to explain how difficult this is unless you’ve done it. I’ll just report my experience from Stanford admissions: when a student tells you they’ve thought through what they want to study and why, it’s one of the most helpful things they can say. Because when I go to committee to advocate for my students from California, my colleague who reads Texas wants to know why my students deserve admission. You better believe it’s a winning argument when I can point out my student has a specific academic vision—backed up by compelling activities and writing—and that our philosophy and psychology professors will love her.

And substantively, this objection—“they’re only 17, let them explore and figure it out later”—is wrong too: We should encourage students to use the college admission process to do the hard work of thinking through what they might want to study and do with their life. If you believe in the value of a liberal arts education, what could be more important than encouraging students to engage in a Socratic self-examination of what they care about, what they want to do, and who they might want to become?

All of this comes with a caveat: Students should decide what’s most true for them for now—subject to change. To be clear, you need to decide what’s authentically the most true. If you engineer some phony interest to take advantage of an undersubscribed major it will backfire and you’ll get rejected. If you’re working with your kids or mentoring students, you should push them to use their college admission process as a capstone moment to take stock of who they are and think through what they might want to become. Not give them a pass to figure it out later and apply undecided.

Here’s the bottom line: The most compelling pitch you can make to a college? Telling them you know why you’re coming.
–MCS

11 Likes

“Who do you think looks more compelling: the undecided student who writes a touching personal essay on their big Irish family? Or the student who writes about stoic philosophy, positive psychology, and says they want to become a pediatric psychologist who draws on Aurelius and Seligman to help kids flourish?”

NEITHER.

8 Likes

Worst I heard was, “Wait until March of your junior year to take the SAT’s.”

This may have been true for some (pre-covid) but certainly not true for higher achieving students.

4 Likes

I believe that being sincere is the best policy. If a young person doesn’t have it all figured out, there are wonderful options outside of Stanford.

The worst advice is to go into deep debt for a degree at what may be deemed a more prestigious school. Even hpys level. Their classes are being taught by a majority of profs with ug from somewhere else and most have nothing to do with hpys. Advanced degrees sure. Ug. Nope. Research the cv of your profs within a major or two at the schools you intend on applying to and take a look. It’s revealing and may open up more options for the student.

9 Likes

@lookingfoward Ha. Sounds like you have a different admission philosophy than me–would love to hear you explain yours. --MCS

@privatebanker Agree with your sincerity point: “[quote=“MichaelCShort, post:1, topic:2795789”] To be clear, you need to decide what’s authentically the most true.”
[/quote] Your points on the value of top schools and debt make sense. But to be clear: my point isn’t limited to Stanford or elites–this is how you should apply to every college. It’s better for students as people and its better for their admission chances to start doing the hard work now of thinking through what they might want to study and why. --MCS

@1intwo2go Why? Obviously some disruption this past spring, but assuming availability of tests, what is the advantage?

1 Like

Good points.

You started this thread a few weeks ago before it disappeared.

I think actually the worst advice is to attempt to be something you are not. If a kid is undecided, having them shoehorn themseves into seeming like a classics scholar is far worse than ticking “undecided” on the application.

This advice undoubtedly is most useful for elite schools. It reminds me of some book I read years ago by someone purporting to have cracked elite admissions. I remember this nugget: “have your child read adult books in 3rd grade.” Sure, kids that do that probably do get into elite schools at disproportionate rates. But you can’t take an average – or even above average – 3rd grader and have them read novels and understand them. You can’t tell the average applicant – or even above average – and have them already know what they want to study and have the extracurriculars to support that interest.

Sure, I will give you that the kid who has figured out their passion, and been meaningfully involved with it, is much more likely to be admitted to elite schools.

1 Like

Taking it early allows them to take it multiple times and practice skills they may need work on.

Active students may have difficulty taking tests during certain times of the year. During normal times sports, marching band and musicals can severely limit students test choices.

For students who have taken Algebra 2 as freshman, it also may be advantageous for them to take it as sophomores, before they are far removed from material they are tested on.

1 Like

Respectfully, I don’t think you’re reading my post closely:

“All of this comes with a caveat: Students should decide what’s most true for them for now—subject to change. To be clear, you need to decide what’s authentically the most true. If you engineer some phony interest to take advantage of an undersubscribed major it will backfire and you’ll get rejected.”

So this isn’t a call to shoehorn yourself into anything. Or to “know” what you want to study or have “figured out” your passion. It’s a call to use the college admission process to engage in some research and serious self-examination. You’re not giving kids enough credit if you don’t think they’re capable of this.

Why do you think “this advice undoubtedly is most useful for elite schools”?

Your kid is applying to do the same thing at every college they apply to . . . be a student. A student who reads, writes, and takes classes with college professors on specific academic ideas. Why do you think Georgetown’s looking for kids who write something thoughtful about their plan for being a student at their school but University of Washington isn’t?

3 Likes

What would you recommend to a student who is undecided between a few specific interests, such as (math or philosophy) or (sociology or psychology) or (chemical engineering or materials engineering) or (history or anthropology), as opposed to the “undecided with no idea or indication of academic interests” that may be assumed?

1 Like

Those students two grade levels ahead in math are likely to be among the strongest students in math, so they are unlikely to forget algebra 2 topics, especially after continuous practice and application in precalculus and calculus courses taken afterward. So “forgetting math learned a few years ago” should not be an issue when choosing when to take the SAT or ACT.

2 Likes

Lol, because Georgetown (and some others) wants to see if this kid IS thoughtful, does understand what GTown is looking for and can ultimately show their match to that. Show, not just tell. That’s not ordinary writing. To do it well, you have to know the college better than rep or its obvious academic offerings or even a published mission statement.

Ucb, there are two sorts of undecided. Kids with multi interests. that’s legit. Then the kids who are deer in headlights, have no idea they can put forth. Obviously, an elite wants kids who can articulate something in some intelligent way.

@lookingfoward You’ve accurately described how to write a Why Our College? essay. As for my post: Your position seems to be that only “Georgetown (and some others) want to see if” a kid is “thoughtful, knows about the school, and can show their match.” I’ll let the community evaluate that advice. Happy to discuss off the threads with you @lookingforward.
–MCS

Totally agree. Junior year is super busy, and if you want to do college visits and start planning ahead, who the heck wants to deal with testing? My son took his ACT in September of Junior year. Who knew Covid was coming? Not us. He missed a few college visits, but because we had started them after sophomore year and during junior year, he had many of them completed before Covid. The only test he didn’t take was a Subject test which wasn’t required anyway.

I would strong encourage anyone to start prepping the summer before Junior year for the ACT or SAT and then just get it done and over with. Much easier to do before you start a crazy courseload junior year as well.

1 Like

Why would anyone retake Alg 2 both freshman and sophomore year? I can’t imagine any college would look highly upon that.

The normal track where I live is Alg 1, Geometry, Alg 2, PreC. If a kid took Alg 2 freshman year, then they’re on track to take PreC soph year and Calc BC. I’m a math teacher and I would never recommend a student retake Alg 2. If they needed to retake it then that means they were placed inappropriately to begin with and would be dropped down much earlier in the year and our school would never let them retake it just to retake it. You can only retake a class for grade replacement in the summer if you earn a D or less anyway.

1 Like

100% agree. My son took Geometry in 8th grade, and then Alg 2 as a freshman. He earned a 36 on the Math ACT. These are the kids that are not going to forget their math, they use it daily in their classes as kids on that track are well advanced or gifted. If they aren’t then they drop down freshman year, and don’t repeat a class during high school.

1 Like

Didn’t say they would forget just said it could be advantageous. Not all go on to precalculus. Some take statistics depending on the school.

Having gone through it with two already - each student is different. D18 had a difficult time scheduling tests due to activities.

I can say I am extremely grateful that S21 did not wait like counselors suggested. He had plenty of time to practice and take test twice before Covid hit. Some students are very active and simply can not take tests on Saturdays. Going into the summer knowing he had a strong score unlike most of his peers made things a lot less stressful.

Both of my kids took the SAT for the first time in March of junior year. It wouldn’t have made any sense to take it earlier since they both were in Algebra 2 that year and you need Algebra 2 to take the test. Advice about test timing is not the same for everyone - it is very dependent on where you are in your math sequence. Kids who are ahead of the normal progression can test early, but for kids who are on the normal tracks it doesn’t make sense.

1 Like