Since were not very specific about what statements you dispute, I can only guess.
“how colleges operate” – guessing that you mean the statement about colleges generally requiring majors for bachelor’s degrees. Besides a few outliers like Evergreen State and St. John’s College, how many colleges that grant bachelor’s degrees do not require a major for graduation?
“how admissions people operate” – guessing that you mean the statement about stats-only or stats-mostly admission, rather than holistic admission. See the California State University system, which enrolls about twice as many undergraduates as the University of California system, as an example of stats-only admission. Also see that many large universities (e.g. Arizona, Iowa, and Texas public universities) have announced stats-only admission for a large percentage of their admits.
If his concern is the volume of humanities and social studies general education requirements, perhaps he should look at the requirements, rather than assume based on whether CS is in the liberal arts or engineering division (if the college even has divisions). Some of the colleges with the heaviest humanities and social studies general education requirements include those known as engineering and CS heavy schools (e.g. MIT and Harvey Mudd), while some of those with the lightest do not have such a reputation (e.g. Brown and Amherst).
Of course, the strength of the CS department, in terms of what it actually offers, and how accessible it is (e.g. is there a difficult secondary admission process to get into the CS major?) is also important for a CS-focused student.
I agree that elite college admissions are not representative, although a LOT of schools these days through around the word holistic. I think for many of them it allows more wiggle room in terms of subjectivity.
As with my other kids, first priority was strength of CS program. CS requirements are the same whether it is in Liberal Arts or Engineering at schools. So for instance, UIUC has a CS+ program in Liberal Arts, and then straight CS in Engineering. Top 5 CS program, you take the same classes, the Liberal Arts part in that case you would also have a double major, but the excess Liberal Arts no interest. Wants the Physics and Chem related courses, plus the required Gen Ed. He loves Stats, so it’s a shame it is in the LAS side, but a minor would be a nice touch. One of my daughters in Engineering CS is able to earn a Business Minor in her program. College sounds so much better than when I went 30 years ago. These kids don’t know how lucky they are - other than the obscene cost. I still remember mine costing only $1,600/semester OOS which was less than my dorm!
Also, a lot of Liberal Arts programs also require extra foreign language where engineering doesn’t. Due to scheduling constraints for other classes mine all stopped foreign language just before AP and I don’t think they count the 8th grade as Year 1. Well maybe some do.
Yes in 1982. Harvard admission rates were well above 30 percent.
Top notch schools like ie a middlebury at the time was good grades, (a b or two didn’t even feel like an issue, none) honors classes, maybe calc at the high end and north of 1200 on the sat was solid. As memory serves me.
" All want to apply (and think they have a shot) at top schools."
Definitely not true, if “all” students wanted to apply and think they have a good shot, places like Harvard or Stanford would get 500,000 or more applicants. Here’s why they get 40K, most people don’t think they can get in, most don’t think they can afford it, the supplemental application can be challenging. Most people in this country apply to colleges where there’s no essay. Yes they usually have to pick a major, but not explain why, only because some majors are more competitive than others.
“to not bat an eyelid at requiring their high school kids, but balk at having a 17 or 18 year but balk at having a 17 or 18 year old put some thought into what they want to study at college”
Another over-generalization, many parents, even here in the intense bay area, are concerned about the requirements being unrealistic. Parents will also give some input on major, but at some point, you have to let the student explain why they want to study something.
"while also offering geosciences/geology, an array not universally available at even much larger schools.:
Geology, earth science are offered as BA, BS, minors at most public colleges, if that’s what you mean by much larger. Locally, San Jose St has a geo and E/S, and Berekley has I think six or seven.
I appreciate your point that students like your nephew–like most students, like most of us–can’t be expected to figure out the “day-to-day reality” of a job. But that’s not the standard for action here.
Students don’t need to “decide” for good. And they don’t need to have intimate-knowledge of the practical reality of a course of study or career. My OP claim is that “Students should decide what’s most true for them for now —subject to change.”
But maybe there’s just a philosophical fault-line in this conversation about what kids are capable of. You and others seem to think it’s naïve to ask a kid to put together an academic game plan. @Tigerle summed up my position: It’s not too hard to ask students to “put some thought into what they want to study at college and maybe aspire to for the next ten years or so of their lives.” (#93.)
Or maybe I’m straw-manning your position. Maybe you thought I was saying students need to have some deep understanding of a job and make a final decision pre-college. I’m not. I know I didn’t figure out what it was like to actually be an attorney . . . until I was an attorney. So I’m not naïve to that dilemma. (See post #44 re: undecided resources on campus.)
But I’m less interested in having a substantive debate–in this setting–about how much to encourage kids to get specific about what they want to do. (While I’m a diehard believer in the value of a liberal arts education, I also think Western parents and schools are far too permissive with kids. College turns into a four-year Neverland for far too many students; with bad consequences for kids and our country.) I am interested in practical strategies students can follow to improve their college chances. And articulating the best academic vision they can at this stage of their life–through courses, conversation, reading, research, etc.–is one of them.
–MCS
@theloniusmonk If you’re going to quote, don’t leave off the first half of my quote: “In my years working with parents and kids–they All want to apply (and think they have a shot) at top schools.” I’m making a claim about my experience; not the universe of all students who apply to college.
If you want to engage with the substance of what I said, then to be clear: I think most folks on a site like this who are seeking out college advice are going to take at least one shot at a top school. (Let’s say the top 20.) Maybe I’m wrong. It would be interesting to hear if anyone has data on the demographics of folks on CC.
“ask a kid to put together an academic game plan.”
Most kids don’t need an academic game plan, it may be good to have, but not necessary. Even at selective private colleges where 15% of the students are athletes, they are told to not declare a major or pushed to an athlete-friendly major. They are not asked to come up with academic game plans. Of the 3500 or 4-yr and 1,000 community colleges, maybe 400 need an academic plan.
For posters who have been through the process - how many of you had kids who were totally undecided about a major?
In my D’s cohort, which was fairly large, there wasn’t one student who was undecided. Two changed majors after freshman year but still went in with a game plan.
I personally only know one student (child of a close friend) who has absolutely no idea what he wants to study. He doesn’t even really want to go to college, but his parents’ are forcing him. They are targeting non competitive schools.
@mamadefamilia Oh I think 150 words is Plenty to say something smart and interesting about an academic subject like math in a Diversity or World You Come From prompt. And I’d focus on the intellectual world you come from:
I come from an intellectual community tied together by one core concept: numbers. From Archimedes to Euclid, Descartes and Leibniz, Ramanujan to Hilbert, I see myself as part of this century-long conversation that’s much deeper than 0s and 1s—a conversation about the structure of reality. When I’m checking out at the grocery store . . .
Can you do a deep dive? No. But I don’t think you need. I’d encourage your kids to get creative and specific.
@MichaelCShort why do you think that students are asked so many introspective questions during the admissions process when the only substantive answers that admissions officers are looking for are to the question “why do you want to study your major at our university”?
U.Va., UVM, Georgetown and Emory appear to offer examples of public and private larger schools that do not offer full programs in geology/geosciences. Along similar lines, with respect to a science such as, say, astronomy, some larger schools do not offer astronomical observatories. In these areas the breadth and depth of curricular offerings and associated opportunities may be substantially greater at some liberal arts colleges.
In short, I don’t think that’s the “only substantive answer” AOs are looking for. I think it’s the most important.
Stanford has one of the longest supplements: 3 essays and 5 short questions. Then you have your Common App. Personal Essay and potentially short essays on Covid-19 or school changes. So we’re talking as many as 10 essays. Obviously, not every response is going to address what you want to study. How do you handle it? I have lots of thoughts on this, as I’m sure others do, but it’s a big question for another thread.
I will say this: One of the biggest mistakes I see kids make is writing way too much about personal qualities. And not taking the time to think through what they are applying to do when they apply to college. So the spirit of my post–and most of my admission advice–is trying to counteract that by getting kids to focus on their intellectual, academic qualities.
–MCS
This has been a very interesting thread to read through today and definitely shows the demographics of the OP and the board compared to “average” US.
I work in an “average” US high school (since '99). The worst advice one can give is to “apply to anywhere you like and work the finances out later.” Finances do not always work out and high debt can have awful repercussions. There’s nothing wrong with applying anywhere and seeing what happens - I’ve seen things happen - but always know what is likely financially and keep that in mind.
Major vs undecided? I tell kids to pick something they think they will like (or don’t hate) and start there, but keep their eyes open as they go along. Most will change their majors along the way. Some kids know what they want to do from elementary school on (have one graduating from med school this year, getting interviews in several of the Top 10 residencies for his field - he declared he wanted to be a doctor when he was 8), but so many more reach their high school years totally unsure. My other two fit that category. Both had a major when they applied, both changed it to something different while in college, one changed his three times. (Marine Bio → Bio → Theater → International Studies)
Interestingly enough, many succeed with their lives (success defined as doing something they like that can support themselves). Knowing what that was at age 17 wasn’t necessary. Nor was an elite school education.
We have had a lot of exchange students at my school over the years. Most prefer our system to their own (high school and college) except for unanimous (I think) thoughts that those who have reached high school and no longer want to be there should be allowed to drop out without stigma heading for trades as happens in other countries. Not everyone needs Alg II. Some know what they want to do from a young age. It doesn’t have to be “become a doctor.” Working in construction or doing hair is fine too.
So CC is for people with the right pedigree? How should we handle it when that occasional member of the great unwashed accidentally bypasses the velvet rope and wanders listlessly among us?
Working in construction or hair salons are certainly fine career choices. However, most of them aren’t poking around on CC, and they definitely aren’t CC’s target audience. Why should they waste financial and other precious resources on a college? They would have gone to trade schools instead in other countries.
Those students (and their parents) who are on CC are looking for the “best” and most suitable colleges for them. It’s natural that they aspire to apply to an “elite” college (or a “elite” programs within a college) if they can afford the cost (or the residual cost after financial aid). So to me, it isn’t surprising that discussions on CC often tend to drift towards “elite” colleges.
It is a fallacy that a student who studies sociology or anthropology at an LAC is somehow doomed to never find a job outside those fields of study, or indeed, any job at all in today’s world. I do tire of this myth about LACs. The thing LAcs are great at is that they truly teach critical thinking skills.
I know many students who attended LACs and graduated in 2020. They have excellent jobs and majored in those perceived “useless” fields. And I know some students who graduated from HYPS andare working at David’s Bridal and Chipotle. Nothing wrong with working at those places, especially given the current job market. There are, of course, recent grads from all kinds of colleges who are working in career building jobs and temporary positions too.
It’s the student, not the school, that creates success.
I agree @GKUnion. Having been on CC for a while now, I can assure MCS that there are MANY students here who are not applying just to tippy top schools.
I do think many go in with a major in mind yet at the same time quite a few change that major or career path along the way. Whether it’s finding something more exciting or interesting in college, or something having never been exposed to before, or even just finding out what you thought you wanted wasn’t what you thought you wanted at all. Nothing wrong with changing. The worst however, is people going into something for all the wrong reasons. The people who go into Engineering because they think it pays, or CS these days because they think making 6 figures out of college is the be all to end all, or whatever the field may be. There should be some satisfaction as well. It’s a hard pill for some however who come out with tons of debt and then end up stuck in something because they’re just trying to please everyone else and suck it up.