<p>Briansteffy. My daughter is more interested in the directing/technical side than in the acting side. Does that make any difference in your recommendations?</p>
<p>Also, what are your thoughts about Kenyon’s theater program?</p>
<p>Kenyon and Oberlin (I do not know if Carleton has a decent theater program, but Carleton is a great LAC in a neat town). would be a tier higher than Beloit and Lawrence, though I am cynical about this impulse to
tier-riorize colleges. If my son had the stats, these colleges would top our LAC list. Oberlin, of course, has a conservatory. I know less about Kenyon.
If my son’s stats were better and we were looking at east coast LACS for theater, we would be looking at Connecticut College.
If you were to look south, check out Centre (they now audition for large talent scholarships) and Sewanee (by a margin, the most beautiful college in the US; 10,000 acres on top of a mountain,- five waterfalls on campus so remote that the students serve as the volunteer fire dept. I heard that a couple years ago you could not get cell coverage - not sure if this is still the case. TN. Williams estate has made significant contributions to the theater program.Sewanee Review and writers conference is the southern equivalent of the kenyon Review.
I am familiar with some of these schools, because, before my son’s injury, we were looking to leverage his football talents to get him into these schools (its amazing how low SATs and GPA can go, even for the Ivy league. My niece barely broke 1100 and got into the top Ivies because she was a stellar field hockey player).
Others could better respond to the following comment; my assumption is that a potential benefit of a LAC with an active production schedule, in contrast to large BFA programs, is the potential for students to get real directing experience. This could be a plus if a student’s ultimate goal is getting into an MFA program for directing. There have been some threads on this, including a discussion of what it takes to male it in directing.
As stated, we are applying to a couple of LACs, not so much as a safety, but because we may go down to the wire before deciding whether we wold rather go to a lower tier BFA or a higher tier BA with the option of eventually pursuing an MFA. I have been with three huge universities and one LAC. I will put up with a lot of crap for saying this, but there is little comparison, from what I have seen, in the sincerity and quality of education. This is not to degrade large public universities, but at many, if not most, publication takes precedent over everything else. Fortunately, from what I gather, BFA programs in large universities are somewhat immune from this ‘corruption’ - to the taxpayer - as the MFA and not the PhD remains the dominant end-degree. A BFA in a large university, in a sense, has many of the positive attributes that a small LAC has tight, small community, small classes, sense of identity and purpose, and shared phantasy.</p>
<p>Brian, I am interested that you say that Muhlenberg is better for MT than for straight acting and would love to hear your reasons for this. My research tells me that the majority of theater classes offered by Muhlenberg <em>are</em> acting classes. The musical theater kids have to try to fashion an MT major via adding voice and dance classes (and minors, perhaps) to the acting/theater major. What’s more, when my D and I visited, Muhlenberg’s theater dept was staging a straight play (Tennessee Williams’ “Orpheus Descending”) which was, to our surprise, far superior to several musicals we saw produced by kids in conservatory programs that are much better known. Everything about that particular production (acting, direction, costumes, lighting, sets, even the ticket people and ushers :)) was impressive.</p>
<p>I agree with NMR’s characterization of Muhlenberg’s theater program. It is first and foremost a straight theater program but the MT kids can piece together MT training with the voice and dance options available there. </p>
<p>I have no clue your D’s qualifications but some good small or medium schools for theater would be:</p>
<p>Skidmore
Muhlenberg
Connecticut College
Boston College
Brandeis
Tufts
Brown
Vassar
Northwestern
USC
Emory
Kenyon
Fordham (by audition)
Middlebury</p>
<p>and others…that is a quickie off the top of my head in a rush…</p>
<p>Soozie, love to hear anything you know about Fordham’s program. I know it is a BA program and requires (as you pointed out) an audition. I also saw on that University’s web site that kids who are interested in musical theater are permitted to take dance for credit at Alvin Ailey by prior arrangement. Is Fordham very, very competitive for acting?</p>
<p>RE: Muhlenberg - as I said, my view is tainted. But I have noted in side-by-side comparisons that they require more ‘literature-like’ courses than other LAC theater programs - this is how my institution is trying to differentiate itself from this primary regional competitor (I am not a theater type). </p>
<p>Requiring more literature-like courses, one might argue (I might), is good. They certainly have nice facilities. I guess I was just provoking here, because whenever people on CC list the best LAC theater programs, the same LACs are mentioned, thus reified, and a number of other good, emerging programs are discounted. No doubt, Muhlenberg is a good option. Beware, howver, that your shot of getting into Muhlenberg is much better if you apply ED. Last year, over half of the class (the whole class; not just theater) was selected ED. They say so in their literature. This is an interesting admissions strategy, but one that I am not a fan of. LACs have to deploy competitive tactics; its tough with so many, the price-tag, and the haunting presence since the 1980s of rank-ism.</p>
<pre><code>No doubt their productions are very good. I went to a MT of ‘Rocky Horror’ at my institution last year and was not impressed. Neither was my son, who goes to a HS noted for putting on production that are better than some put on by local regional theaters. Our faculty all are MFA/PhDs, but that means little if the student talent is not there. Muhlenberg has a critical mass of talented students.
So I am not saying anything negative about Muhlenberg - my father went there. I am just saying that there are other very good small LAC-theater programs than those typically listed. There are other programs out there that do just as well in placing students, whether in regional theaters, film, or MFA programs. But, given the sheer number of LACs and their unique attributes, I would never attend an LAC without a long visit and interview with faculty in the Dept.
By the way, I use the term LAC very narrowly; as defined by the Carnegie Commission. It would include Muhlemberg, Skidmore, Vassar, Conneticut College, and others on the list used by USWNews, which defers to the Carnegie Classification in defining what is and is not an LAC vs. a Comprehensive College, vs. a National University, etc.
Why might I go to Muhlenberg if interested in theater? There are lots of majors and, besides its pre-med and business program,the theater program is integral to their strategic plan. This means that you would have a lot of peers with similar passions and the Department is integral to the college’s competitive position. Note the relatively low admissions rate at Muhlenberg, given other colleges with higher SAT, etc. requirements (though it is an SAT optional college). It;s reported 40% acceptance rate is comparable to many much higher ranked LACs. Two factors likely contribute to this. Its location (Philly, NYC, NJ) and its theater program.
So kudos to Muhlenberg.
</code></pre>
<p>Northwestern is her #1 choice (until some recent wavering). She has the qualifications to get in (NMSF with grades and SATs to match) but there are no guarantees. She is looking for other solid academic schools with a good theatre program as back-ups and as alternatives if the wavering continues. She needs a school which will allow her to easily bridge between theatre and more traditional academics (currently Spanish and Chemistry are her other interests). Midwest would be preferred by her parents. Kenyon has been #2 and I am trying to get her to look at Lawrence. Other suggestions have been Beloit, Cornell College, Oberlin. Are there others we should look at?</p>
<p>Brian, thank you for those insights. As you say, admissions at MC seem more competitive than at many similar LAC, and I would guess that all of the things you mention are at play. I recall that when we visited, we were told (and I am pulling this out of my 48-year-old memory, so don’t quote me on this) that the theater dept is the third largest in the school, in terms of enrollment and funding. That’s one reason the facilities are so darn amazing (and they are). In terms of admissions competitiveness (is that a word? :)) I also spent a pretty good chunk of time talking to kids while my D was sitting in on an acting class and was surprised to learn that several kids with quite extensive resumes (in terms of training, experience in plays and musicals and so on) and with very respectable academics and scores were actually waitlisted at Muhlenberg. So it’s not a true safety by any means. I also hear that Skidmore has become quite a bit more competitive than it was. A school guidance counselor recently told me that, last year, Skidmore had something like 2 to 3X more applicants than usual, meaning that some kids who she would have expected to be admitted were not.</p>
<p>NotMamaRose: Skidmore is an interesting college. It’s location is a strong positive; not only Saratoga, but the great outdoors only a couple of miles away. The campus is nice, but I thought its buildings were a bit ‘beat’; its woods and gardens make the college pretty. I was invited by the college to do something for them and I could not take a bath or shower in their overnight building for visitors because the water was dark brown. But I loved doing my morning runs along its wooded trails
Nevertheless, I was very impressed with the faculty. The college seemed willing to innovate and it is driven to move up the brand-ID ladder. The arts (defined generally), writing, and business programs are strong. I know nothing about their productions, but, personally, I would certainly not rank Muhlenberg higher. They are just different. Muhlenberg has a strong theater program, but I would not call it an ‘artsy’ college, say, in contrast to Skidmore, Oberlin, and Bard. Discounting the theater program, Muhlenberg is much more like its PA neighbors - F&M, Gettysberg, Dickinson, and Ursinus. My recommendation is that Skidmore (or Bard) would be a good contrast/comparison college to look at if looking at Muhlenberg. Connecticut College is strong across all the disciplines.
I forgot to mention another east coast college that has come to our attention and is also on many CC LAC lists - Drew University, which is a pretty, small LAC (has a Theology School and a couple of other small grad. programs, but is a true-blue LAC). It is not as resource rich as Skidmore and Muhlenberg, but it has a lot of theater students, among other positive features. It is less competitive to get into, compared to MC and SC.</p>
<p>NotMamaRose: a question: is it true that your school is starting an undergrad business program? If so, smart move, as it will really hurt us.</p>
<p>NMR…it is hard to pinpoint or classify the competitiveness for Fordham’s BA in Acting/Theater but in my view, usually a BA by audition school is not as hard to get into as a BFA or may be on par in terms of competitiveness with some of the “less competitive BFAs”. Sorta in range of “easier BFA” level. So, it is more competiive than a non audition BA. I think it is an excellent school to balance out a list of BFAs if that is what I think your D is shooting for but is not an absolute safety like a non audition school and so perhaps she may have a balanced list of all BFAs, plus an audition BA like Fordham and a non audition BA which is academically is a safety range as well. Fordham is definitely worth a look for your D. </p>
<p>hktk…OK, that narrows it more than your previous posts…I think your D should definitely look into Kenyon and Oberlin in the mid range and definitely look at Beloit for a safety (hard to classify safety but based on info you gave which isn’t that accurate). Lawrence is also worth a look. I agree with NMR that Muhlenberg and Skidmore are still selective and would NOT be a safety for SOME kids but if your D is a top student who is a contender for Northwestern, my guess is that Muhlenberg and Skidmore would be excellent safeties for her along with Beloit. I have had or have students applying to all of these schools. I know less about Cornell College and in my view, a top student like your D can have a safety that is more selective than Cornell College. Oberlin and Kenyon are not safeties but my guess on the little you shared is that they would make excellent match schools for her.</p>
<p>Cornell college: be warned that it uses a one-course-at-a-time approach, which is not for everyone. It is one of those schools that sends you mail once a week and calls on the phone. If my S had the credentials to possibly get into NW and possibly Kenyon, etc., Cornell College might be a much more safe safety than you need. On the other hand, if my memory serves me right, their theater program more closely mimics that of a conservatory than other LACs - fewer general requirements and more pure acting, etc. classes. Also, the one course approach allows the class to go to London or NYC for its’criticism’ course - at least that’s what they claim.
In looking at LACs I ask myself - for my S - how many courses outside the major must he take? In some programs you only take 10 theater courses - that’s it. In other programs, the outside requirements are fewer. Also, in some LACs you get decent cedit for producing productions, while in others, very little. In some LACs there are few full time theater faculty; many rely on visiting profs and adjuncts - perhaps not a good thing. Do the students attend productions? I think it is the Princeton Review lists these LACs - i.e., Lawrence ranks high.
Of course, many of these questions are relevant to BA programs at larger state and private universities. For example, Pitt’s BA program harkens back to the days when drama was an extension of the English Dept. (my interpretation). I have been trying to figure out (and will when we visit) what the general requirements and opportunities are in the Penn State BA program (Penn State’s web site provides little information; well, it does for football).
RE Fordham: The theater students on various opinion sites rave about being housed (also classrooms) together at Lincoln Center - tight group and, of course, great location in NYC - compared to its Bronx campus.
Please note that Soozievt and others are much better sources of information on these matters than myself. I am only speaking as a parent who knew nothing about theater programs a year ago. I just have a lot of time on my hands right now and I am doing what I can to assist my son in optimizing his outcome in this complex process.</p>
<p>Brian, I think what you are doing as far as collecting info and helping your son is great, and appreciate hearing what you have learned. Thanks for sharing.</p>
<p>Soozievt–</p>
<p>To be more specific about my D’s qualifications and needs:</p>
<p>National Merit Semi-Finalist
SAT 1490/2260
ACT 33
GPA 4.4 weighted, 3.9 unweighted
Many AP and IB classes, although not an IB Degree candidate.
Maybe a little weak on extra-curriculars
White female (that’ll hurt)</p>
<p>Northwestern/Kenyon/Oberlin are all possibilities. Just starting to look at Lawrence. Interested in directing/technical theatre more than acting, although she has done both in strong high school theatre program. Academically, her current interests are Spanish (spent last summer in Spain on Indiana University Honors Program in Foreign Languages for High School Students) and Chemistry (subject to change to another science). Needs a strong academic environment with the ability to cross over to theatre, probably as a minor. Preferably midwest, but could consider East Coast.</p>
<p>I am new to posting on this board but I have been reading it and find it very informative. Can anyone tell me how you would compare the acting BA programs at Muhlenberg and Vassar? Also, I know it has been done before but can someone rank the top BFA (acting) programs on the East Coast? (specifically, NYU versus BU, CMU, Rutgers, Ithaca). Thanks alot.</p>
<p>Okay guys, what is an LAC?</p>
<p>Liberal Arts College.</p>
<p>I am new to CC, though my father has me read threads to understand how all of this works. About myself: I have been a straight A student since my junior year, though in my Freshman year I was in the lower half of my class. In my Soph. year I was a high B student. My SAT is in the low 1200s - am taking again in Dec.). I got into acting my junior year, but my experience was limited because I played football, which is the religion of my HS, ran track and fenced competitively for a local club. I was seriously injured again (third concussion) this preseason and have given up sports to act. I want to get into a BFA program, but will chose a decent small college with a decent theater program over a ‘so so’ BFA program in a college that, to put it bluntly, nobody has ever heard of. As my parents say, ‘your goal is to become an actor, but you better have a backup plan’.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not totally new to acting. I attended evening acting classes since the 10th grade and last summer I attended the five week program at BU, where I got very positive feedback. I have been a lead in 3 HS productions and got a bit part in a regional production. I excel at stage combat and directed the fight scenes in my HS productions. I have an acting coach and a vocal coach (just to kiss — to get the lead in the musical this spring - it’s what you have to do in my HS, besides giving money to support the program).
I am limiting myself to about 8 BFA programs, because I can go to some small colleges with strong theater tuition free. I applied to Drew and Bennington. I can also get into Franklin and Marshall College and go tuition free due to my father, but he says that he will die prematurely from stress if I go there. I have never been a teacher’s pet. I can also go to Penn State tuition free. Both of my parents are college profs. They have helped me to narrow my list.
I am applying to three big name, very hard to get into BFA programs: Rutgers, Guthrie, Syracuse (for reasons, tuiton free).
I am also applying to Evansville (tuition free), Utah and Florida State.
So, what I need is advise about which one of the remaining colleges on my list I should be applying to. Penn State and the small colleges are sort of safeties. If I am rejected by everybody, I will go to FM, but it is too preppy for my taste. This is my list of the other programs I might apply to.
Hartt (tuition free): hear decent things about BFA, but do not care for Univ. of Hartford campus, dorms, etc.. Sorry for being superficial, but, as my father says, this is the cruise ship that you will be on for four years.
Oklahoma: nice campus and good acting program, though I am kind of going thru an anti-football/beer/Bible phase right now.
West Virginia: inexpensive, no audition BFA that is not too far from home, but like Oklahoma - football/beer/Bible.
Drake University; tuition free; BFA does not have a reputation, but classier cruise ship than the other three.
Sorry about the Bible comment, but I am finishing up four years at a catholic high school and I am not a catholic; I like Tai Chi and meditation. But I do get A’s in my religion classes.
Given what I have said, which of these last four BFA programs would you apply to?</p>
<p>Are you talking about University of Oklahoma in Norman, or Oklahoma City University?</p>
<p>I will address Muhlenberg vs. Vassar. I do not think that the BFA programs you mention can be ranked. They are just different.
While I think that it makes sense to choose BFA programs exclusively on the merits of the BFA program, I do not think that an LAC should be chosen exclusively upon the major. Muhlenberg is a fine LAC. It has an excellent theater program compared to other LACs. But Vassar is a special LAC that, if you can afford it, would be hard for many to reject for M. They are very different; the ideology of their students, the history of the institutions, and these days, the reputation that they have with grad schools and employers. I find myself again suggesting a deficiency re: M. Comparing Skidmore and Muhlenberg is impossible; it is a matter of fit. Comparing the two you mention is another. Again, do not get me wrong. We are going to Muhlenberg this weekend for their open house. But I wish we were going to Vassar.</p>