<p>sorry i double posted</p>
<p>hcpss....yes some programs cut and some don't...some reaudition and some don't and some let your child pay tuition and work stage crew and then cut them....I knew from the get go that the extra stress involved with that was not for my D. This thread has people who know much more than I about who does cut...I think CCM does and possibly CMU.</p>
<p>My D FINALLY heard from her first choice school, U Mich (auditioned for straight theatre in Chicago, early Feb). She was waitlisted. . . better than a reject for sure, but leaves her in a bit of limbo, not sure what to make of it or where to go from here. She was rejected from all the other BFA programs she applied to, but has been accepted into the BA theatre programs at UC Irvine and Cal State Fullerton, both very strong programs (and both with in-state tuition - yay!). Also waitlisted at Muhlenberg.</p>
<p>As this point, she is inclined to accept the offer from Irvine by May 1, while continuing to keep her fingers crossed for Michigan. From my perspective, I just want this process to be OVER - I am so tired of all the stress, anxiety and uncertainty in this application and audition frenzy (can any other parents relate?!?!?) and I'd like her to make a final decision and get on with life. I've always felt the BA was a better track for her than the BFA, given her wide ranging interests and desire for a strong liberal arts education as well as strong technical training, and I was very impressed with Irvine when we visited - I think it would be a perfect fit for her. She liked it too, but is having a hard time committing to UCI and letting go of UMich - because that door is still slightly ajar!</p>
<p>How realistic is it to hold on to dreams of Michigan? Anybody have any idea how their waitlist process works, how many kids get waitlisted there, how good (or remote) are the chances of getting in from the waitlist? The letter said their waitlist is "unranked," so how do they choose among the waitlisted kids? Is there anything she can do to increase her odds of getting in off the waitlist? Is Michigan as great as she seems to think, and worth holding out for?</p>
<p>How can you find out if a school you are looking for cuts students? I am wondering if it would be better so apply for a BA in theatre rather than BFA - but am not sure how much stage experience my son would get in a straight theatre program.</p>
<p>If your S is interested in Musical Theatre (as your earlier post suggests), you should check out the Musical Theatre forum in the College Majors section. </p>
<p>There is much information over there about the cut systems: why they exist, how they're done, which schools cut a percentage of the class deliberately to downsize it, etc. As I recall there is also some information about cuts on the FAQ page (link to that is somewhere near the top of the threads on the MT Forum).</p>
<p>hcpss: I have asked your question a number of times. I do not think that anyone on CC can provide a list. Nevertheless, DePaul has a harsh cut and a number have complained about Arizona. What I did was go to each school's website and download their policies; most programs spell out the procedure (some cut once, some, twice, etc.). However, none post their cohort cut ratios. Frankly, as someone in higher education, I think cutting for reasons other than attendence, grades, etc. is inappropriate - hell, we have all seen Doctors that we wish were somehow cut, but they do not get cut if the grades are there. Hey, we are talking about acting here, not medicine. Sure, the real acting world is a tough 'cutting' business; but, then again, actors do not pay $45k/year to audition. But it's how the game is played right now, and there are tons of kids lining up to play, so its 'buyer beware'. Would we tolerate it with any other paid-for service? I doubt it.</p>
<p>Does anyone know anything about the BFA Acting program at Northern Illinois University. I'm currently a Musical theater major at SUNY Buffalo, and I was accepted to NIU, and I'm possibly transferring. Anyone know anything about the program or people at NIU?</p>
<p>WallyWorld who posts here and on the MT forum has high praise for this school and he's done a lot of research.</p>
<p>Brittany,</p>
<p>I do know a bit about it and on paper it looks like a very good program to me. I met Debra the head of the actor training program in SF and really liked her. I have subsequently spoken to her twice on the phone and that was also positive. Here is what I liked about it;</p>
<p>Impressive faculty bios
Very strong history of graduates finding professional work
Nice facilities
Good location; Smaller town that I hear is charming and only 60 miles from one of the great theater towns in the country, Chicago.
Good faculty contacts with professional theater in Chicago. The department chair is the artistic director for a professional company in the windy city.
Impressive exchange program with the famous Moscow Theater company (whose exact name escapes me)
Very affordable tuition comparatively speaking
Impress looking production pictures; Nice sets, props, costumes, etc. </p>
<p>Let me know if you have any specific question that I have not addressed.</p>
<p>Wally</p>
<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>Been reading this thread for around a year and owe so much to all of you who have posted. I've just gone through the audition process, and waited for decision letters. I've been accepted at The Theatre School at DePaul, LIPA(Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts), and Northern Illinois. The cut at DePaul is particularly frightening to me as I am an older student(20) than most going into undergrad programs. The prospect of being 21 without even having a start at a degree is not pleasant(if I were to get cut at DePaul). I've read Wally's posts about Northern Illinois and visited NIU as well as LIPA. I'm visiting DePaul in a week and a half. I know DePaul is generally considered more prestigious than NIU and LIPA, but those programs are both quite good as well. If any one can weigh in on the professional prospects of grads of any of these programs or any other opinions/information I would be much appreciated.</p>
<p>rs</p>
<p>While it may seem preliminary to think about an MFA when just entering the undergrad years, I stumbled on this great article and thought others might benefit from reading it. It was written by professor Patrick Cronin who teaches at East Tennessee University Theater Dept. He has done a good deal of work in the business and is now in academe so has an informed view, I think. Enjoy...</p>
<p>Article begins:
Hello all I've been a member of Equity since 1964, AFTRA since 1968 and SAG since 1972. From 1970 until I returned to academe I made a good living as an actor, mostly in Los Angeles but also in NY. Prior to going to LA I earned a BA in French from LaSalle University and an MFA in theater from Temple U, both in Philadelphia and I taught at Temple from 1965 until 1970. This is by way of introduction to the topic....</p>
<p>To MFA or not to MFA.....That is the Question.
by Pat Cronin </p>
<p>If you are young and contemplating going to NY or LA and you have a BA or BFA and the possibility exists for you to go on and get the MFA should you?
Like most answers related to pursuing a career as a professional actor, the answer must be hedged but all other things being equal, which of course they rarely are, you should get the training that an MFA represents and you should treasure the advanced degree because you never know when the time will come that you will want/need it. </p>
<p>In my case I was 60 years old when the opportunity came for me to teach at a university but without the MFA earned in 1968 from Temple I would not be enjoying the wonderful life I now have. In addition, even in the "dark ages of the 60's" young actors were becoming more and more skilled in many areas. When I started in summer stock and dinner theater, it was enough to be skilled at one or two things and have a career as an actor, but I could see the proverbial handwriting and being "just" an actor or "just" a dancer was going to mean a limited career if any career at all. </p>
<p>So by the time I reached 30 and was on my way to having a career as a working actor, I was, because of my BA and MFA and continued study with other teachers, an actor who sang and an actor who danced and who had a trained and useful vocal instrument courtesy of Arthur Lessac. The day of the single threat actor was ending and the actor who did it all was just beginning.</p>
<p>Now my son, who has just finished his BA with me at East Tennessee State, and who is playing Dan'l Boone in his first paying theater job in Xenia, Ohio in the outdoor drama, Blue Jacket is typical of the actor of the future and represents the "competition" that is out there. He has a magna cum laude BA in theater and philosophy and is currently, while in Xenia, becoming certified as a stage combat person. By the end of the summer he will be certified in hand to hand combat, quarter staff fighting and the use of small knives. Next summer he expects to continue his certification in at least six other weapons. He is also taking riding lessons and studying voice and dance. In the fall he will attend the University of Louisville on an assistantship and work towards his MFA in acting in their highly regarded 3 year program. </p>
<p>Because he grew up in Los Angeles and had a mother and father in the business he earned his AFTRA and SAG cards before he was 4 and by the end of next year he will also be a member of Equity and then he will go to NY and/or LA and attempt to be a working actor just like his father and his mother. He is the competition and he is not, I believe, all that unique. I believe in the next 10 years all of the actors vying for work will be so highly trained that there won't be anything they can't do and do at a moments' notice. </p>
<p>The MFA program in acting at Louisiana State U in Baton Rouge requires that all their graduates in the acting program prove that they have SIXTY yes that is Six Oh monologues that they can do at any moment under any circumstance, or they won't be awarded the degree. When I was auditioning for LORT theaters in the 70's I felt "smug" with four monologues at the ready.....imagine how I 'd do competing against actors who can show a range of 60 pieces and who will never be stumped by the request from a director to show " a comedy from the Restoration but not Sheridan or Wycherly!"</p>
<p>Now the exception to getting the most training possible before going to LA or NY or Chicago, would be if you are a "type" and a "hot type". Alas the youth obsession, especially for females in the industry requires making other choices if what you want is to be a star especially in TV and film. If you are beautiful, male or female, and Film and/or TV is what you aspire to, then it seems to me that LA and the waitering job is where you need to be and you need to be there as close to 18 as you can get because if beauty is what you are selling then that career must be launched and in orbit by 25 at the latest or it isn't going to happen. For us "character types" and/or for those who calling is the stage then the answer to a long and successful, if not a starring, career is to train and train and then train some more and if you can get an MFA while doing it then I would strongly recommend your doing so. </p>
<p>I once wrote some articles for an AFTRA/SAG web page in Florida and the questions I received were quite good and we maintained a dialogue for over a year. If there are any questions out there by all means send them to me and I will try to respond as best I can. Talent is never enough for without marketing skills and career planning then that talent is best kept in the community theater range. </p>
<p>To ask Pat a question, send an e-mail to <a href="mailto:croninp@etsu.edu">croninp@etsu.edu</a></p>
<p>FOLLOW UP:</p>
<p>Mr. Cronin:
I recently stumbled across your article on Actor's Life.com and I am writing to ask you more on the subject. I am currently entering my senior year as a Theater (BA) major. Our professors definitely recommend an MFA to all of us in the program. However, I am currently struggling with what I should do after this year. Where as I know I want an MFA at some point so I have the ability to teach at the college level, if the time in my life ever comes where that is where I am led, I question whether I should attempt to go to an MFA program directly out of undergrad or if I should take a year or two off and try to get work and hone myself a little more on my own first. It seems that the people I have asked this to, including numerous professionals in the Detroit area theater community are split about 50/50 in their recommendations. I was wondering your take and would welcome any advice you could give.</p>
<p>Thank You,</p>
<p>Michael L.</p>
<p>Dear Michael:
I believe the 50/50 split on this question...."To MFA or not to MFA"....especially right out of undergrad school......is about right. My own advice on this issue swings back and forth and is of course rooted in the individual actor. Five years ago I had a drop dead gorgeous young woman in my Acting for the Camera Class (she was just 18 at the time) and she had real acting ability....not there yet mind you but she had the "goods". Uta Hagen, with whom my wife the actor Beatrice Colen, Marsha the Car Hop on Happy Days, had studied for two years used to say that talent was either there or it wasn't and you could tell in 15 seconds if someone had "it" or didn't. So a secret to getting into Uta's Master Class was if she let you audition for the full five minutes you were not getting in; if she called you after about 30 seconds she was admitting you. </p>
<p>In any event this young women had the ability to make it in LA I believe and if she continued to study and train along the way she could have been a fine actor as well as a "Darryl Hannah" or "Uma Thurman" type. So I advised her to quit school then and go directly to LA where I would find her an agent and set her up with some CDs I knew. She was set to do this when it became clear to us both that she didn't have the "steel" for what it takes to make it in Hollywood and so not only did she finish her undergrad degree she did it in Speech rather than theater and is now on her way to grad school in Speech!</p>
<p>So to reiterate what I said in my article, if you are a "hunk" or gorgeous by MTV/Vogue standards and if your ambitions are to be a star then you best get to LA sooner rather than later since, especially for women, the clock is ticking and if you're selling your looks you've got to be on a star track by 22 female and 25 male or "it ain't going to happen". </p>
<p>If on the other hand you're a "character" actor as I am/was and my former wife (she died of lung cancer in '99) was, then time is different for you than for a "Tom Cruise/Uma Thurman" type. If you're a "Ned Beatty" look-a-like as I am then you're going to work a lot if you're talented and have a good if not spectacular career and for this career you need to have some really kick-ass training and tools in your acting arsenal, as I indicated in my article - lots of monologues, lots of dance training, certification as a Linklatter, or Skinner or Lessac voice person, stage combat training in multiple weapons and other skills such as horse back riding (all saddle types and bare back) and karate.....and well the list is endless. I once lost a 35,000 dollar commercial contract because I lacked a truck driver's license!</p>
<p>So, I'll give you same advice I gave my son who is 22 and who is going to the U of Louisville in the Fall for three years to get his MFA. My son, James, looks like the guy on That 70's Show the one with the Afro and the "dude" attitude. Because he grew up in the "biz" with his mother and me, he was SAG and AFTRA before he was four years old. He has always had better agents than I do because he is young and "cute" and marketable, at least right now as a pre teen heart throb type (longevity seems to be about a year or so for this group...note New Kids on the Block and Back Street Boys). However, he has played Oedipus Rex and Happy in Death of Salesman to my Willy and several other good roles and has studied with me and other good acting teachers and he has decided that what he wants to do is act and not to do "mindless TV". </p>
<p>So he was thinking of going to NY and getting a waiter job and studying at Uta's or Neighborhood while trying to "make it" off off off Bway and I advised him to take three years and really work on his craft and have the MFA in his pocket before hitting the NY wars. Since he has already decided to forego the possibility of a "boy toy" career.....he'll be way too old for that in three years.....he should train and train and train to be the actor he wants to be and not worry about his "career".</p>
<p>Therefore my advise to you is to first of all be honest with yourself about what "type" you are and then look at the market place and "tell yourself" how many times you see you on TV/Films and in what capacity.....as the star the "side kick" or the waiter. If you look like Danny DeVito or, as I do, like Ned Beatty, then be honest with yourself that you're not getting a crack at the parts being turned down by Brad Pitt or Jason Gylllenhal. If you do look like Brad Pitt or Ben Affleck then you have to decide if you "really" want to be an actor or a star....and they are rarely the same thing. </p>
<p>If after you answer these questions then you have to evaluate the kind of "deal" you are getting from grad school. The best deals out there right now are full tuition and fees plus a stipend between 500 and a 1,000 a month for teaching or helping out in the shop. The package can also include medical benefits. If you're not being offered money then you have to ask how much cachet your school REALLY has in the professional world: Yale, NYU and Juliard don't have to give you anything because a degree from any of these three schools will almost guarantee you a place in the theater/film/TV pantheon. </p>
<p>On the other hand a degree from say, Indiana State, might represent great training but it isn't going to ipso facto open doors the way an MFA from UCLA or UC San Diego or Yale or NYU will. So do you want to start your acting career with 50,000 in student loans or do you want to be free to do that indie film for nothing rather than play Cruella Deville at Disneyland for a thou a week because you need to pay off your student loans for that MFA that isn't of much use to you in Orlando's theme parks?</p>
<p>Much to think about and no hard and fast answers. If you're a "character actor and if you have a full ride to a good school or an offer to go to NYU then I'd take the MFA route; if you aren't getting any money for grad school and what you really want to do are movies and TV then I'd be on the next plane for LA and working on my "do you want fries with that?" role.</p>
<p>best,</p>
<p>Patrick Cronin</p>
<p>MORE FOLLOW UP
Hi Pat,
I just got the article you wrote "To MFA or not to MFA..." forwarded through my email. It meant alot to
me because I have been focused on more training, and my number one goal is getting into an MFA program. With that said, I believe that there are quite alot of actors/actresses out there who are also seeking more training. And the impression I got from your article was that training is available to all those who would like to have it. However, I see a much different reality. I was doing a summer intensive with 50 other actors this summer. And most of them, like myself, applied to 8 to 10 programs, and obviously did not get in. So, my question is, for those of us who have the desire to get more training, what advice could you give to make us more competitive in the grad school audition situation?
Thanks,
Tim
P.S. If you have any questions about where I am in my career, etc., please feel free to ask.</p>
<p>Dear Tim......you said you took a "summer intensive" with 50 other actors and the goal was to get you into MFA programs. Without knowing more about this program I'd have to say that from the people who ran the program's perspective the object was to make money for them Getting into MFA programs of any kind or type or quality requires years of planning. </p>
<p>Let's look at the academic side and make no mistake about it.....it is about academics even though they are supposedly professional training programs. These programs are "housed" in Colleges and Universities and they have to meet the Graduate School requirements whether the program is professional (music, dance, theater, fine arts) or English or Political Science or Law.So I'm training a young actor right now at the undergrad level and he is the most talented actor I've had and his chances next year of getting into ANY graduate program are slim and none because his academic qualifications are poor to say the least. </p>
<p>So what do you need just to get in? I'd say in this market place for the top schools you need a 3.0 minimum GPA (my son got into U of Louisville MFA program and his GPA was 3.75 with a double major in Philosophy and Theater) You need Grad Record Exam scores of at least 1000 (much higher for the "better" schools) and at least a 3/4 in the Critical Writing/Reading section, which is new from when I took the GREs. You need great recommends from people with some entree level influence. Clearly if you "know" Todd Haynes from The Roundabout and he's willing to write a letter on your behalf that will open doors. Most of us can't get those kinds of recommends so we rely on the teachers and colleagues who know us best. Trying to get into Grad School in theater with recommends from your English professor and your minister are probably not going to work. </p>
<p>Now if you are older (late 20s to early 40s) and have done a ton of stuff at whatever level....Disneyworld, Equity stock, Children's touring companies etc.....then your GPA and your GREs become less meaningful because the Theater Department can argue with the Grad school that you are now more mature and have life experience. Also in that age bracket you become a non traditional student and that helps a lot in terms of a school's demographics. </p>
<p>So now that you are in whatever category you're in you begin the search for the right grad school. Unless you're the next Meryl Streep and can prove it, Yale and Juliard and NYU are a waste of time and money for you to even apply. Big factory schools such as U of Indiana (200 undergrad majors) Florida State also are very difficult to get into since they have good reps (deserved in these two cases) and you need to have some special factors to separate you from the pack. </p>
<p>So go to Google and to other search engines and start looking at grad schools that people are missing. I love Southern Miss's grad school; Regency which is a Christian school has an up and coming program if you can deal with the Pat Robertson brand of religion. These are just two examples of the kinds of programs that are out there that are good and not quite as hard to get into as some of the "biggies". Now if you are really ready to try for the big time at least at the second tier then you need to get ready for the URTA auditions and for these you need to have someone recommend you who is from a professional theater of from an URTA school. Every year these auds are held in NY and Chicago and San Francisco and I recommend going to the Chicago ones if at all possible.</p>
<p>Maybe grad school and the MFA are not for you? I would then go to NY or Chicago and begin to study with an individual coach or school. You still can't go wrong with the H/B studios in NY and with Neighborhood Playhouse and with the American Place Theater School and Circle in the Square school...all good places to study that don't care what your GPA and GREs are. If you are not getting to where you want to be then analyze the problem figure out what isn't working and then develop a marketing strategy. Today's successful actor is as much an MBA as she is an MFA.</p>
<p>best</p>
<p>patrick cronin</p>
<p>Miahana: facinating piece. Thanks for posting.</p>
<p>I would appreciate any comments from high school and college educators and arts advocates about the importance of arts programs (theatre, dance, music, visual arts, and all) as an integral part of a college prep curriculum. Our private high school, which consistently turns out stellar academics and sports programs, needs more information for our grass roots booster club and we are making a major presentation at the school this week to our school administrators, parents, faculty and board. What really will really catch the attention of our administration is if they begin to understand the benefits of these programs as stated by well known schools and arts administrators. I know for a fact, since my daughter has been accepted to a great university theatre program, that scholarships also exist for students who are well prepared for a college program. Many people don't seem to be aware of this.</p>
<p>This year and with a new dynamic theatre teacher, we have gained so much ground and credibility and the teens are such wonderful, mature young adults helping to create something wonderful where there was a void. You may email comments to me privately, if you like, and I would appreciate quotes to use in our handouts. If you can use your name, title and university or organization affiliation, that would be most helpful and please note your permission in the email. Please know that our parents and their children will appreciate hearing more information so they know there are great opportunities for out artistic children!</p>
<p>Brian, I notice you are from PA. What have you heard about UArts. My son has thought about it as a safety, but we have heard about as many negatives as positives and I am reluctant to send him to a school where he really does not want to be.</p>
<p>Grades need to be good - housing is a big problem.</p>
<p>hcpss: We are only looking at 'conservatory' programs housed within a college/university, for a number of reasons. Also, we are applying only to schools that are liberal in granting tuition exchange (I am a prof at a LAC). UArts grants less than 10% of accepted students tuition exchange, whereas, for example, Drake (a good safety for us) grants close to 100%.</p>
<p>I got into Syracuse and FSU's BFA acting programs and BA Theater performance at Emerson, I think they are all great and am having trouble deciding any feedback would be helpful.</p>
<p>Syracuse has a great reputation.</p>
<p>thnnks notMamaRose for your reply I have been hearing that about Syracuse too.</p>
<p>My D and I visited SU's Drama Dept in the fall and were impressed with the people we spoke with and especially with the musical we saw, which was Urinetown. The cast included several leads who were studying acting (and not MT) at Syracuse. In examining Syracuse's program, I would say that my biggest concern would be there sophomore evals, during which adjudicators decide which students can go on to pursue their BFAs and which must move to the BA track. Those who are put on the BA track lose access to upper level acting classes. I am told that those who do not pass their evals on the first try do get a second chance, however. This might be something you wish to talk to the dept about; please don't take my word for it.</p>