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<blockquote> <p>Could we start seeing colleges stay full-need but publicly become NOT need-blind,<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>Already happening, even before this economic hard times. Some colleges actually come out and honestly tell applicants up front. I'm remembering some college in MN, I think, that spelled out their change in policy.</p>
<p>There is enough information on the Common Ap for an admissions professional to estimate accurately the likelihood that a student is full pay. Zip code, address (Zillow can find out an estimate of what the house is worth), colleges attended and degrees earned by parents, parental occupation, etc. Admissions committees probably have someone scoring applications for such stuff, which is probably encoded into the application, and the aggregate scores closely monitored during the need-blind admission process.</p>
<p>how do you think this will apply to the UC system?</p>
<p>Muller - Should admissions be doing that. They would only need to do that for those who indicate "applying for FA". For those who are not app"applying for aid", I would expect that that sort of calculation would be moot.</p>
<p>lockn, based on what I've seen, I think colleges already decide if an applicant is worth paying X for. My kids needed full aid and there were schools that rejected them that I knew: 1- don't normally give as much aid as we needed and 2- probably didn't want my kid enough to pay X. One of these schools goes around saying it has "informally" become need-blind but when I spoke to the financial aid office, the officer bristled at the amount of aid I said we would need (and that <em>is</em> what we were awarded at other full need schools) and the officer told me they wouldn't normally give such a big amount as a school-based grant. He said instead they would offer the federal aid (Pell, student loans), a smaller school grant and the rest would be a loan that the school would offer and we would have to pay back-- but that they don't normally award that much aid. My daughter was rejected. </p>
<p>My kids did well at two types of schools: schools where they were really wanted (because they filled a school need), and schools like OOS publics that don't even attempt to meet need.</p>
<p>US News and World Report rankings just came in:
(from best to worst)
1. Smart and Rich
2. Smart and Poor
3. Dumb and Rich
4.Dumb and Poor</p>
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I can't help thinking that now, the top colleges are going to be even more homogeneous
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<p>As a Questbridge Match scholarship recipient who has looked over the new 2008 statistics, I can tell you all that even more "smart and poor" kids have been accepted to top schools on full QB scholarships. The endowment hits didn't seem to affect the top 10 LACs and top 20 universities' efforts to recruit a socio-economically diverse group of students.</p>
<p>i bump my earlier question or should I start another thread:</p>
<p>Does anyone have ED % admit stats for schools below top 10 lac's and top 20 U's? (interpret: those that are not need blind?)....or are we going to have to wait for CDS or college board updates?</p>
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Top colleges, even though they say that they are need-blind, seem to always end up with about 50% full pay kids.
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This alone is proof that "need-blind" admissions is a lie. There would naturally be greater variation from year to year in the percentage of full-pay students.</p>
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It's a lie, pure and simple.
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Absolutely. There is no reason to believe what any college says about this. What's the penalty for lying? There is no "truth in advertising" law related to "need-blind" claims, no government oversight department.</p>
<p>If colleges look at zip codes, to determine who can pay full tuition, they are in for a surprise.
Now that so many people lost so much money, the most valuable asset that some of them have is their homes.</p>
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As a Questbridge Match scholarship recipient who has looked over the new 2008 statistics, I can tell you all that even more "smart and poor" kids have been accepted to top schools on full QB scholarships. The endowment hits didn't seem to affect the top 10 LACs and top 20 universities' efforts to recruit a socio-economically diverse group of students.
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<p>I have no doubt that there still will be money for the very brightest needs kids.</p>
<p>I think the change will be at the "fill in" level of students. The bottom 50 percentile of admitted students is where I believe the increase in "money talks" admissions will be made.</p>
<p>The homes aren't worth as much anymore either...</p>
<p>Listen, what do you consider rich? I have filled out FAFSA estimators (D is still a Junior) and our EFC is astronomical. At many places we would be full pay (at the highest priced schools, we would pay a hefty portion). We are far from rich. We are well off in a very expensive COL area. It is not a good time to be upper middle class with above average but not stellar grades, let me tell you.</p>
<p>I had asked earlier about how our family might benefit since we have a high EFC. My D is still waiting to hear from 11 private colleges she applied to. I looked at their websites and only two don't say they are "need blind." I will check with our GC to see if we should contact these schools about the fa. </p>
<p>I am rather confused about all this since we have been receiving promotional material from some of these schools saying that many families with relatively high incomes are receiving financial aid. They seem to encourage everyone to apply for aid. Or probably just trying to get more applications in general. </p>
<p>I noticed that Carnegie-Mellon has a different twist. The website says they are need-blind for ED and RD admissions but explicitly not need-blind for the waiting list. And they don't meet 100% of need. This seems kind of cruel to invite everyone to apply but then not meet their need. On College Board I think it says they met 84% of need.</p>
<p>College application is the most demoralizing process...</p>
<p>Students worked their a*s off for 4 years, couldn't get into their dream schools.</p>
<p>Kids got into dream schools, hard working parents came to realization they couldn't fulfil their kids' dreams.</p>
<p>dsult: Carnegie Mellon was just on the news here in NY last night as the primary victim of a huge investment scheme just broken up.....</p>
<p>and, yes, oldfort....wise words......</p>
<p>Anneroku, that is not at all the case. Many of the kids that are accepted on the full financial aid are from situations of challenge which were hooks that helped them gain admissions to the most selective schools. If you cleanse their application from any signs of that "hook", very few of them would have gained admissions, as there are many, many kids with superior academic achievement and profiles that would get in before they would. It is actually difficult to come up with enough of these kids that are within what the schools consider striking distance of the mean achievement standard of the schools.</p>
<p>As that mean goes lower as you go down the list of schools in terms of selectivity and academic scores, you will find more of such kids qualify for admission to a point that full aid is not guaranteed, and when it is, admissions is no longer need blind. When you get to the level of schools where the admissions is open or close to it, they could give a hang if you are challenged. Not a hook at all. Many of those applicants are challenged. Nearly everyone needs financial aid. It's a rare student that can pay full freight in that scenario.</p>
<p>Of course there is the way to look at it that some hard working people saved, lived below their means (not by the wifes choice however) to make sure that their kids wouldn't have the same lack of choices that their parents did. </p>
<p>I have always thought the need blind thing was interesting. I have read it say we won't reject you just because you need money. I think it is "need blind" not "need oblivious". I mean honestly on the first page of the common app it asks if you are applying for aid- as well as on many supplements. It wouldn't be there if they didn't care at all till you sent in your paper work. </p>
<p>Still I think it isn't the top top kids, or the questbridge kids who have the issues- it's those kids who are lopped in the middle of great kids, but maybe not that top 1/2 % and who find themselves very similar to one another. That's where it would seem to me that they would "sneak a peak" so to speak.</p>
<p>But a few years ago Princeton really went all out at the info session to say that the adcoms never see whether you need aid or not. So who really knows. But I think I saw60% of kids at some top schools recieve aid and that's not merit aid- so they must do a pretty good job at keeping a blind eye.</p>
<p>I read somewhere last year when my son was applying that checking the "will apply for FA" box merely alerts the school to send your information to the financial aid office so they might begin a file for purposes of determining need, generating an award, and so forth. This comment came from a "need blind" school. I can't say whether it's true or not, or whether the need-blind claim is an honest one, but it did seem like a reasonable general question to put on the Common App, and not necessarily a nefarious ruse. Besides, the Common App is used by schools that are need blind and schools that are not. It's not as though the application was designed just for need blind schools that want to sneak a peek at the applicant's financial wherewithal. Just because it's on the the first page of the app, doesn't mean need-blind schools pay it any mind.</p>
<p>I mean, I do believe that in these times there is going to have be some kind of eye kept on percentage of students with need. There would have to be. But I'm not sure that flat-out cynicism about the admissions process at need-blind schools is warranted either.</p>
<p>I believe they will nibble at "need-blind" around the edges. Internationals (at those scarce schools that state need-blindness for them), transfers, waitlists, those will probably be the first.</p>
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<p>What school is going to say "poor people need not apply"? When did it become the school's obligation to pay to educate your child?</p>
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There is enough information on the Common Ap for an admissions professional to estimate accurately the likelihood that a student is full pay. Zip code, address (Zillow can find out an estimate of what the house is worth), colleges attended and degrees earned by parents, parental occupation, etc.
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<p>And, don't forget ECs: volunteer work, Intel semifinalists, all-state musician, participation in certain sports (swimming, water polo, lacrosse, fencing), and the like all have a $$ tag associated with them in comparison to 'grocery bagger' for four years.</p>