<p>^^^ And slight update, mattmom. Sadly, Brodie Mountain closed its skiing many years ago. All they have now (last I checked) is inner tubing. Jiminy Peak is the ski slope nearby to Williams.</p>
<p>*** And another plus for Dartmouth-- dogs are welcome everywhere (except the dining hall, I believe)</p>
<p>Duke and UVA maybe.</p>
<p>i would say colgate</p>
<p>jym626, According to its Web site, Brodie apparently still offers skiing and has been taken over by Jiminy Peak, which as you know is pretty close to Williams but not as close. They offer tubing, but apparently not exclusively and not every day.</p>
<p>Returning to the OP's initial query, admissibility appears to be a factor (no mention of ethnicity as far as I detect). Suggestions such as Williams and Middlebury may not be helpful given the difficulty of admission to both. Without knowing the specific numbers and qualifications, I'd agree to some extent with Colgate, except that beautiful as Colgate itself is, it is also to my mind considerably more geographically isolated than Dartmouth (in terms of distance from interstate--I don't know about public transportation). I guess my preference in the Northeast would be the two slightly easier-to-get-into Maine schools, and I supposer Bowdoin as well if the OP's application is up to it, especially because Brunswick is very appealing and Portland and Freeport are added magnets--making Bowdoin overall perhaps somewhat more like Dartmouth, part of whose appeal I think is its location in a big-little town.</p>
<p>I haven't been to either Vanderbilt or Wake but I wonder if they might be worth a look for the OP--at least in terms of size they would be closer to Dartmouth than the actual LAC's under discusssion.</p>
<p>Addendum: Yes, the Davidson Hillel is new--established two years ago I think. But there has been an adjunct chaplain rabbi for at least six years, probably more; times and places change.</p>
<p>Davidson is NOTHING like Dartmouth. I visited one of my best high school friends at Davidson a couple of times while I was in college. Davidson was MUCH less diverse, had a much more "southern/ fratty" student body, and felt way more conservative. Not all frats are created the same. Dartmouth's student body is closer to Brown than it is to Davidson.</p>
<p>Bowdoin, Colby, Bates are each less than half the size of Dartmouth with D-III sports, which to me makes more impact on campus life than proximity to the highway. I wouldn't lump Middlebury in with Williams in admissions, as from what I've seen historically Middlebury selectivity is more in the Bowdoin to Colgate range than Williams, which I would consider on par with Amherst and Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Slipper, I don't think most people's first reaction to a school is level of diversity or are not as nearly concened about it as you are, at least in comparison to other factors.</p>
<p>Still off topic, but that link to Brodie doesnt open for me (and if you notice the date when you put it in your searchengine, it is from 2001). The only ones I found were in Japanese, and the ones that do open are from 2002. When we were there in 2004, it was tubing only (and yes, owned by Jiminy Peak, which is where we skiied and stayed when visiting Williams), Per wiki, it closed to skiiers several yrs ago [Brodie</a> Mountain (ski area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodie_Mountain_(ski_area%5DBrodie">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodie_Mountain_(ski_area)) (for some reason you may have to click on the lower link in this wiki page to get the page to open). I also agree with slipper, who, having attended Dartmouth, probably is the best voice on this matter.
The OP hasn't posted her stats. They would be helpful in order to give better help. Yes agreed, Williams and Amherst will be on academic par with Dartmouth, but Vandy is likely pretty close as well. I think Middlebury is likely more like Colby, Colgate and Hamilton in terms of admissions selectivity.</p>
<p>I think slipper's comments are reflective of the new liberal consciousness that now exists at Dartmouth and which I indirectly referenced in my earlier post (# 5). Racial diversity is unquestionably a higher priority today than has been the case historically. This is true at colleges all across America, but probably to a higher degree at Dartmouth and many of the historically elite colleges of the Northeast. I would agree if anyone made the claim that this preoccupation is lower at Davidson. I would also agree that the Dartmouth student body of today more closely resembles Brown than at any time in recent memory. </p>
<p>Beyond the diversity issue, I would still contend that Dartmouth and Davidson have a lot of similarities related to size, location, Greek life, presence of sports, very positive brand name within its region, emphasis on small class sizes, dedication to undergraduate teaching, etc. Clearly, Dartmouth has a stronger brand, particularly in the Northeast and on Wall Street, and moderately stronger selectivity statistics, but qualitatively Davidson is a superb place and has nothing to apologize for in comparison with Dartmouth. </p>
<p>One metric where Dartmouth shows great strength, Alumni Giving, shows a 53% giving rate that Dartmouth partisans will point to as proof of their outstanding alumni dedication to/passion for the school. Davidson matches and beats this with its 54% Alumni Giving rate. Davidson alums are pretty darn proud of their school as well.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes agreed, Williams and Amherst will be on academic par with Dartmouth, but Vandy is likely pretty close as well. I think Middlebury is likely more like Colby, Colgate and Hamilton in terms of admissions selectivity.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I wouldn't view Vanderbilt as more selective than Middlebury, Colgate, Hamilton, Colby either. Doesn't Vanderbilt have a higher acceptance rate than most of these others? Given the fact it's a national university, it's probably not as self-selecting an applicant pool too.</p>
<p>These are the acceptance rates for last year (Class of 2012) for the aforementioned schools:</p>
<p>Dartmouth: 13%
Amherst: 14%
Williams: 16%
Middlebury: 18% overall (17% for Sept. admits)
Bowdoin: 18%
Colgate: 24%
Vanderbilt: 24%
Hamilton: 28%
Colby: 31%</p>
<p>^Yes, except that was the first time Middlebury was ever below 20% acceptance rate while Dartmouth, Williams, Amherst have been at that level for years.</p>
<p>I would say that based on my discussions with other Dartmouth accepted students at Dimensions, most would consider Williams to be a lot more similar to Dartmouth than Amherst, if you were looking for an equally selective reach school. After that, many students also considered Middlebury as a high match, and then Bowdoin as a match. I honestly didn't ever hear much talk about the others with serious consideration. A few also applied to Colgate, but had instantly crossed it off their list after being accepted to Dartmouth. This does not mean that Vanderbilt/Hamilton/Colby aren't similar, it's just that they weren't as popular with admitted students. I'd imagine looking at the top tier rejected students would provide better insight as to what schools are similar to Dartmouth but easier to get into.</p>
<p>The other random schools that I saw a lot of similar comparison to were Duke and UVA. Both also have that outgoing/social as well as intelligent student bodies. They are both a lot less Lac-y, and certainly not much easier to get into.</p>
<p>arcadia-
I didn't realize the acceptance rates for the class of 2012 were already available on line. This past academic year Vanderbilt saw a 30% increase in applications. I am surprised their acceptance rate was 24 % for the current freshman class. I'd have thought, in light of the huge increase in applications, it might have been lower. Has anyone had a chance to look at the middle SAT range for the accepted students at these schools?</p>
<p>Using data from the latest USNWR report (which is a year old and thus reflects the class entering in Fall, 2007), let's put a little more meat on the bone in comparing some aspects of these colleges:</p>
<pre><code>% of classes with <20 students , School
64% , Dartmouth
70% , Duke
67% , Vanderbilt
49% , U Virginia
57% , Wake Forest
49% , W&M
73% , Williams
71% , Middlebury
69% , Bowdoin
71% , Davidson
63% , Colgate
74% , Hamilton
61% , Colby
64% , Bates
SAT 25 - SAT 75 ( Avg SAT ) School
1330 - 1550 ( 1440 ) , Dartmouth
1340 - 1540 ( 1440 ) , Duke
1300 - 1480 ( 1390 ) , Vanderbilt
1200 - 1420 ( 1310 ) , U Virginia
1240 - 1410 ( 1325 ) , Wake Forest
1250 - 1450 ( 1350 ) , W&M
1340 - 1520 ( 1430 ) , Williams
1300 - 1490 ( 1395 ) , Middlebury
1300 - 1470 ( 1385 ) , Bowdoin
1270 - 1440 ( 1355 ) , Davidson
1250 - 1430 ( 1340 ) , Colgate
1280 - 1460 ( 1370 ) , Hamilton
1280 - 1440 ( 1360 ) , Colby
1260 - 1410 ( 1335 ) , Bates
ACT 25 - ACT 75 ( Avg ACT ) , School
29 - 34 ( 31.5 ) , Dartmouth
29 - 34 ( 31.5 ) , Duke
29 - 33 ( 31 ) , Vanderbilt
na - na ( na ) , U Virginia
27 - 31 ( 29 ) , Wake Forest
27 - 32 ( 29.5 ) , W&M
29 - 33 ( 31 ) , Williams
29 - 33 ( 31 ) , Middlebury
29 - 33 ( 31 ) , Bowdoin
28 - 32 ( 30 ) , Davidson
29 - 32 ( 30.5 ) , Colgate
na - na ( na ) , Hamilton
28 - 31 ( 29.5 ) , Colby
na - na ( na ) , Bates
% of Top 10% students , School
91% , Dartmouth
90% , Duke
80% , Vanderbilt
87% , U Virginia
64% , Wake Forest
79% , W&M
89% , Williams
82% , Middlebury
85% , Bowdoin
83% , Davidson
64% , Colgate
74% , Hamilton
60% , Colby
55% , Bates
% CR 700+ , % Math 700+ , School
65% , 65% , Dartmouth
60% , 68% , Duke
46% , 54% , Vanderbilt
29% , 36% , U Virginia
26% , 32% , Wake Forest
45% , 32% , W&M
66% , 61% , Williams
56% , 49% , Middlebury
49% , 45% , Bowdoin
41% , 40% , Davidson
38% , 36% , Colgate
49% , 31% , Hamilton
45% , 38% , Colby
32% , 28% , Bates
Fraternities , Sororities , School
43% , 40% , Dartmouth
30% , 42% , Duke
35% , 50% , Vanderbilt
30% , 30% , U Virginia
35% , 48% , Wake Forest
22% , 27% , W&M
0% , 0% , Williams
0% , 0% , Middlebury
0% , 0% , Bowdoin
40% , 0% , Davidson
28% , 34% , Colgate
29% , 19% , Hamilton
0% , 0% , Colby
0% , 0% , Bates
</code></pre>
<p>
[quote]
SAT 25 - SAT 75 ( Avg SAT ) School</p>
<p>1330 - 1550 ( 1440 ) , Dartmouth</p>
<p>1340 - 1540 ( 1440 ) , Duke
1300 - 1480 ( 1390 ) , Vanderbilt
1200 - 1420 ( 1310 ) , U Virginia
1240 - 1410 ( 1325 ) , Wake Forest
1250 - 1450 ( 1350 ) , W&M</p>
<p>1340 - 1520 ( 1430 ) , Williams
1300 - 1490 ( 1395 ) , Middlebury
1300 - 1470 ( 1385 ) , Bowdoin
1270 - 1440 ( 1355 ) , Davidson
1250 - 1430 ( 1340 ) , Colgate
1280 - 1460 ( 1370 ) , Hamilton
1280 - 1440 ( 1360 ) , Colby
1260 - 1410 ( 1335 ) , Bates
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Since Middlebury, Bowdoin, Hamilton, Bates are SAT-optional schools, their median SAT scores are skewed upward 20-30 points.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Mddlebury, Bowdoin, Hamilton, Bates are SAT-optional schools, their median SAT scores are skewed upward 20-30 points.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Gellino--All of the schools you just mentioned are much more transparent than your alma mater when it comes to reporting data. Colgate is one of only a handful of colleges that still refuses to make its common data set publicly available. Why is that? Furthermore, they only publish on their website the SAT scores for ADMITTED students, not ENROLLED students. What is there to hide? I'll bet you that the percentage of Colgate students who submit SAT I scores is very close to the numbers at Bowdoin and Middlebury.</p>
<p>I would say not including your lowest scorers and yet still reporting an average is a bigger offense than reporting the average for accepted students. One can still find out the numbers for enrolled students at Colgate by viewing other sites, but you can't find out the actual SAT median at Middlebury, Bowdoin, Hamilton by any method, except for two years ago when Middlebury reported the average SAT for all enrolled students of 1349 - the exact same SAT average of enrolled students at Colgate that year. Unless the SAT average at Middlebury went up 46 points last year, it appears that they are no longer doing this. I know in looking at some comparisons of the most recent class stats at Bowdoin and Colgate that the average SAT of ALL enrolled students came up virtually the same in the 1365-1370 range for both schools. Considering that Hamilton's average SAT was ~ 25 points below Colgate the year before they switched to SAT-optional, I would say the way they report it now is even more deceptive. 100% of Colgate applicants submit some form of aptitude test (SAT or ACT) vs only somewhere between 70-80% at Middlebury, Bowdoin, Hamilton.</p>
<p>Typically, the difference between accepted and enrolled student SAT averages at Colgate are ~40 points. I don't work in admissions, so I don't know why they don't report both. Maybe, it's because they are trying to draw in applicants who are about to become Dartmouth and Williams wait-listees and rejectees, who don't know it yet; the same way Middlebury was reporting higher SAT averages than Dartmouth and Williams three years ago.</p>
<p>
[quote]
100% of Colgate applicants submit some form of aptitude test (SAT or ACT) vs only somewhere between 70-80% at Middlebury, Bowdoin, Hamilton.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Where are you getting your bogus information (I'm speaking for Middlebury here, btw)? Middlebury requires standardized test scores. You know that, right?</p>
<p>For the latest CDS (2007-2008), Middlebury reports SAT I scores for 88% of enrollees and ACT scores for 24% of enrollees (some submit both SAT I and ACT). <a href="http://www.middlebury.edu/NR/rdonlyres/CDB2CFC8-96F4-403D-BAC3-6BC8920B93AE/0/CDS2007_2008.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.middlebury.edu/NR/rdonlyres/CDB2CFC8-96F4-403D-BAC3-6BC8920B93AE/0/CDS2007_2008.pdf</a></p>
<p>Compare that to Amherst (which isn't even SAT I optional!!!): <a href="https://www.amherst.edu/media/view/36999/original/Book4.pdf%5B/url%5D">https://www.amherst.edu/media/view/36999/original/Book4.pdf</a>
Amherst reports SAT I scores for 76% of enrollees and ACT scores for 23%. In other words, Middlebury's reported scores are more representative of the class than the reported scores at Amherst.</p>
<p>I'm not tracking these things on a daily basis, but last I had seen Bowdoin and Middlebury were in the 75-80% range and Hamilton was somewhat lower. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Where are you getting your bogus information (I'm speaking for Middlebury here, btw)? Middlebury requires standardized test scores. You know that, right?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As far as I know, Middlebury doesn't require SAT I or ACT, which are the tests seeking to measure aptitude. Allowing candidates to cherry-pick the best results from a test of their choosing hardly seems standardized or uniform to me. Why not require SAT I and then decide how much weight to put on it; rather than disingenuously pretending you don't have lower scoring students and instead reporting artificially inflated numbers? </p>
<p>Middlebury took a step in the right direction (after they had reaped the benefits for years, of course) by reporting the SAT mean for ALL enrolled students, but their 25-75% range seems inconsistent with this. Are they still reporting a number for all students and do the ranges they report reflect that too? They seem better than Bowdoin, Hamilton, Holy Cross, which just seem blatant in their attempt to report higher SAT scores, by excluding their lowest scorers and pretending they don't exist. And then you have the debacle someone posted on here about what's going on at Baylor, which seems like an all-time low, tail wagging the dog, offense.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As far as I know, Middlebury doesn't require SAT I or ACT, which are the tests seeking to measure aptitude. Allowing candidates to cherry-pick the best results from a test of their choosing hardly seems standardized or uniform to me. Why not require SAT I and then decide how much weight to put on it; rather than disingenuously pretending you don't have lower scoring students and instead reporting artificially inflated numbers?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Middlebury requires either: 1) SAT I; 2) ACT; or 3) three SAT IIs. If an applicant submits three SAT IIs, then their SAT I score also is sent to Middlebury and is included in the reported results for SAT Is. On their website, Middlebury clearly states the following:</p>
<p>
[quote]
"SAT 1's were not required for the Class of 2012 and ranges include all submitted tests, even if a different test type was used for evaluation, e.g SAT II's or ACT.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So the only instance where Middlebury wouldn't report either an SAT I score or an ACT score for an enrolled student is if that student didn't take the SAT I but did take 3 SAT IIs. That likely constitutes a handful (>10) of students in each entering class.</p>