THES London Times Ranking vs. US News World Report

College Search & Selection
121

<p>Here is the most recent article. It came out like 40 minutes ago.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-04-15-voa61.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-04-15-voa61.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Over the last few years American college and universities have seen declining numbers of foreign students studying in the United States. The drop in foreign enrollment is becoming a growing trend as international students are looking to other countries to get a university degree. </p>

<p>There are fewer international students these days on the campuses of American colleges and universities. For the first time in decades more students who go abroad are not choosing to study in the United States. International students are now choosing to get their degrees from countries such as Australia, Britain, Canada, Hong Kong, Singapore, China and India.
..........
Andrew Flagel explains, "The Australian universities, British universities, even some new universities in other parts of the world have become very savvy about marketing themselves. It will be important in the coming years for American universities to continue to find ways to tell the stories about our products.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The best marketing is research. Quality research, quality professors, quality faculty, and cutting edge innovation that baffles everyone and takes society and the world to new shattering heights. Everything else is too susceptible to silly politics that substitute for a lack of innovation and will exacerbate the decline of US research. I have been saying this for over 6 months now. I am glad some people in the media and at top universities are finally starting to understand now...</p>

122

<p>Westsidee,
you would seem more believable if you were a bit less disingenuous. </p>

<p>According to the study you cite, the reason for the decline has nothing to do with the level of education at US universities, but has a lot to do with security concerns and visa restrictions in the USA.
Research: Please!</p>

<p>Below is an excerpt from the report:</p>

<p>“However, the perception of the survey respondents appears to be that these declines reflect an impression on the part of potential applicants that an unwelcoming climate for international students now exists in the United States, and that this is demonstrated most visibly by the difficulty they face in securing a visa in a timely manner. This is consistent with substantial anecdotal evidence from higher education institutions across the country about the impact of current security policies and procedures on graduate international applicants, particularly those pursuing study in the sciences. Visa applications from students in these categories are now frequently forwarded to Washington, DC, for review, and delays can stretch from a few weeks to several months.”</p>

<p><a href="http://www.cgsnet.org/pdf/PresRel_IntlStudSrvy.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cgsnet.org/pdf/PresRel_IntlStudSrvy.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

123

<p>The simple fact is that most of you wouldn't be complaining about Europeans ranking schools if yours was ranked higher. I don't buy into these rankings, or any other ranking fro that matter, because what makes a school good for you might make it bad for me, and vice versa, so you can't really put a number on it. Its been said a trillion times on these boards, but I'll say it again. Go with what makes you feel comfortable.</p>

124

<p>"Everything I have said I can back up with evidence. I don't go around spreading misinformation to gain an edge. The times I have been wrong, I admit it."</p>

<p>Well, I'm waiting....</p>

125

<p>Haha, I know what the University of Chicago is. I've been there before! I was making light of Chicago University. No such thing.</p>

126

<p>Berkeley is a sucky school some people on the east coast/midwest never heard of. To say it is as good as Yale, Stanford, and Princeton is utter insanity.</p>

127

<p>FountainSiren, if you want to stay narrow-minded and remain a us-news thumping american, that's perfectly fine. But don't slam other people for being a bit curious as to what the REST of the world thinks.</p>

128

<p>"Berkeley is a sucky school some people on the east coast/midwest never heard of. To say it is as good as Yale, Stanford, and Princeton is utter insanity."</p>

<p>For the most part I agree, but I think Berkeley is seen as a respected safety school for HYPSMC applicants. Although Berkeley is known for its horribly bad undergraduate program, it's also known for its incredibly good graduate program. Maybe the London Ranking is basing everything on graduate schools.</p>

129

<p>I couldn't care less about any rankings at all. I've never defended any, although I've dis'ed a few. I went to the school I loved, not the school some ranking told me was prestigious in California, New York, Bulgaria or Albania. </p>

<p>USnews is meaningless. Completely. Although, I wouldn't say it is asinine, like the contrived ranking from the UK which puts a heavy premium on such incredulous factors like how many foreign students or professors a particular school has on its campus; and where it would have any value at all it would, for the most part, refer to graduate school, not undergrad. </p>

<p>USNews, for all its faults (whatever they are) at least has the good sense to do separate rankings for grad and undergrad. </p>

<p>As far as the national press goes, I more or less liked Princeton Review, Fiske and “The Right College” (once you get past the politics) although none of these have true rankings, jus descriptions.</p>

130

<p>Princeton Review Academic Rating:</p>

<p>Emory-94
then you have a slightly worse academic experience in
Berkeley-92
but Berkeley crushes
UMass-65
still, UMass remains a powerhouse across the ocean</p>

131

<p>looks like westside got caught!</p>

<p>"Everything I have said I can back up with evidence. I don't go around spreading misinformation to gain an edge. The times I have been wrong, I admit it."</p>

<p>"Well, I'm waiting...."</p>

<p>Shame, shame westside....</p>

132

<p>
[quote]
According to the study you cite, the reason for the decline has nothing to do with the level of education at US universities, but has a lot to do with security concerns and visa restrictions in the USA.
Research: Please!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>???</p>

<p>I got caught doing what? I know what the articles said. Let me clarify what I said.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The fact is that research wise, Europe and Britain are fast catching up to the US. More students are choosing to attending European schools now more than ever. If

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It is true research wise, Europe and Britain is catching up to the US. </p>

<p>It is true that More students are choosing to attend European schools now more than ever. It is probably largely due to visa restrictions, but THES London Times has a component for international student body and faculty, which most top 5 THES US universities did very poorly in. The visa restrictions helped lower the rankings for the US in this manner (not by much tho, there is far heavier weighting given to faculty prestige, quality of research, citations per faculty, etc...). And now with these rankings out, it does show that given the visa restrictions, European and British schools are more of a viable alternative than ever before.</p>

<p>Please name where I said something that wasn't factually correct.</p>

133

<p>
[quote]
For the most part I agree, but I think Berkeley is seen as a respected safety school for HYPSMC applicants. Although Berkeley is known for its horribly bad undergraduate program, it's also known for its incredibly good graduate program. Maybe the London Ranking is basing everything on graduate schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It bases on peer review , citations per faculty, student faculty ratio, international faculty, international students. Yale and U of Chicago does very well in the international faculty category. </p>

<p>I would say that the "bad undergraduate program" is rather over hyped. Lately Harvard students say their professors are more inaccessible than many public schools. The fact is that many rich students pick public schools over private schools not because of the money, but because of the more laid back atmosphere, social fun atmosphere, and greater diversity available at public schools over private ones. Many times undergraduate rankings get mistaken for overall university prestige. This ranking strictly ranks on an overall university basis. </p>

<p>Here are the world's top social science universities:</p>

<p>normalised score, citations per faculty </p>

<p>1 Harvard University US 200.00 9.53
2 London School of Economics UK 185.25 4.90
3 University of California, Berkeley US 163.26 6.83
4 Oxford University UK 157.00 5.20
5 Chicago University US 131.96 9.76
6 Stanford University US 122.99 8.59
7 Yale University US 110.10 7.59
8 Cambridge University UK 100.37 4.60
9 Massachusetts Inst of Tech US 100.02 9.33
10 National University of Singapore Singapore 82.14 3.10
11 Princeton University US 79.62 7.93
12 Melbourne University Australia 79.25 2.72
13 Cornell University US 67.54 5.78
14 Columbia University US 67.30 6.79
15 Tokyo University Japan 62.13 0
16 Australian National University Australia 59.82 3.39
17 Pennsylvania University US 51.93 7.60
18 University of California, Los Angeles US 47.37 7.42
19 Beijing University China 46.52 0
20 Erasmus University Rotterdam Netherlands 46.41 4.72 </p>

<p>World's top arts and humanities universities</p>

<p>weighted score</p>

<p>1 Harvard University US 41.83
2 Oxford University UK 30.99
3 University of California, Berkeley US 29.86
4 Yale University US 27.68
5 Cambridge University UK 26.04
6 Princeton University US 22.14
7 Beijing University China 18.32
8 Columbia University US 17.7
9 Tokyo University Japan 14.42
10 London School of Economics UK 12.94
11 Sorbonne Paris France 12.75
12 Massachusetts Inst of Tech US 12.16
13 Michigan University US 11.89
14 University of Texas at Austin US 11.62
15 Kyoto University Japan 10.25
16 Oslo University Norway 9.12
17 National University of Singapore Singapore 9.12
18 School of Oriental and African Studies UK 9.12
19 Pennsylvania University US 9.12
20 Edinburgh University UK 8.93 </p>

<p>I admit, these international universities are painful to look at, so high up on a lot of rankings, but it is a fact that non US universities are catching up research and faculty wise to US universities.</p>

134

<p>…………..“I got caught doing what? I know what the articles said.”……….</p>

<p>You probably did know what the article said; the problem is you were trying to make us all believe it said something else completely. Fountain asked you to back up this repeated assertion that US schools are loosing students due to:
……….“The fact […] that research wise, Europe and Britain are fast catching up to the US. More students are choosing to attending European schools now more than ever.”…………</p>

<p>Then you try to prove that assertion by copying and pasting from this site
<a href="http://www.cgsnet.org/pdf/PresRel_IntlStudSrvy.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.cgsnet.org/pdf/PresRel_IntlStudSrvy.pdf&lt;/a>
and conveniently (duplicitously) leaving out the reason the study gives for the decline— </p>

<p>…………………“these declines reflect an impression on the part of potential applicants that an unwelcoming climate for international students now exists in the United States, and that this is demonstrated most visibly by the difficulty they face in securing a visa in a timely manner.”………………</p>

<p>it is not research at all, as you keep repeating ad nauseum, but visa restrictions and a perceived unwelcoming atmosphere in the US [and you are right: you did know what the article said, you were just hoping we wouldn't know]. </p>

<p>Westside, to back up your over-blown estimation of the school you had to attend—Berkeley-- you use the completely ridiculous London Times ranking and to back up the ridiculous assertions of the London Times ranking you scurrilously use a survey to back up a claim the survey doesn’t support.</p>

<p>Berkeley will be fine, don't get so heated up. It's a top 25 school, and apparently a great saftey for UCLA, Cal Tech, Pomona and Stanford. I wish our state system had such a good saftey school.</p>

<p>BTW, it’s a house of cards baby, and yours just got blown down</p>

<p>Look Chicken-little (Westside, California1600 etc), the sky is not falling.</p>

135

<p>^ You ignored the fact that non US schools are catching up to the US in scientific research. This fact, coupled with the harsher visa restrictions on entering international students, is exacerbating the problem. It makes the decision for international students to attend a non US university that much easier.</p>

<p>Initially, it was the visa restrictions that led to the decline. International student growth was at about 6% increase year over year before sept. 11th. But with the visa restrictions, along with improving research from Europe and Britain, it makes the choice that much easier. </p>

<p>You know, this was what I wrote in regards to the international student visa restrictions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It is true that More students are choosing to attend European schools now more than ever. It is probably largely due to visa restrictions, but THES London Times has a component for international student body and faculty, which most top 5 THES US universities did very poorly in.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now lets look at what transpired. I merely said my opinions on how to improve US education in a calm rational manner. And here you come with wild emotional statements like " your house of cards got blown down... blah blah". Clearly you failed to address logically anything I said. </p>

<p>Next time say something like: Well, we don't know what percentage of international students dropped for undergraduate vs. graduate". Or something like : Soon once the visa restrictions are lifted, we won't have to worry about it as much. or: As soon as those British scientists become famous, we're gonnna hire them anyways. </p>

<p>Or something to that effect. But instead your emotional arguments show your real weakness. You are another east coast New Yorker, who is afraid of the Big Bad West taking over, so you use whatever emotional lies to divert the issue and plunge our country further into mediocrity. You did it with tech (silicon alley, wut a joke), you did it with east coast rap (rap was more than about sex sex sex when it was in the west coast), you did it with baseball (yankees will never win), you tried to do it with media in LA ( god, everyone hates New York attitude and New York media, all it does is make everyone's life more miserable, what part of "everyone is turning off the TV" don't you understand??)California is the 5th biggest economy all by itself, and we don't want the evil east Coast to come anywhere near our state ever again. Plunging our country into recession with your stagnant politics, how dare you. It won't happen again... its time to let go of the reins and let this country rise from the ashes again, Mr. East Coaster. </p>

<p>BTW, regional politics aside, try to address my points next time buddy. Research wise ( which is the only legitimate way to compare international universities), non US universities are conducting more and more groundbreaking research. Perhaps visa restrictions are the reason a lot of those top professors can't get recruited here. Regardless, my point is that improving research, prestige, and reputation of international schools is making it easier and easier for students to opt out of the US university "standard" when it comes to assessing their most important asset, their education.</p>

136

<p>First of all you should worry about yourself before telling other people what to say.</p>

<p>With that said, here is the real kicker:

[quote]
Or something to that effect. But instead your emotional arguments show your real weakness.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Being the man that West Sidee is he leaves emotional arguments out:

[quote]
yankees will never win

[/quote]

[quote]
god, everyone hates New York attitude and New York media, all it does is make everyone's life more miserable, what part of "everyone is turning off the TV" don't you understand??

[/quote]

[quote]
its time to let go of the reins and let this country rise from the ashes again, Mr. East Coaster

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I could care less about the West Coast, it isn't and never will be as strong as the East Coast. For you to have to come on here and start bashing it shows your huge inferiority complex. We have New York, Boston, Philadelphia, and Washington, D.C. What do you have? </p>

<p>As my professor says (who was born and lived in LA for many years): California is the Land of Fruits and Nuts.</p>

137

<p>I totally agree. There is no way the West Coast can catch up with the East Coast. We have the financial center of the world, the center of government, center of culture, and the best universities imaginable. California has almost nothing in comparison. Los Angeles is a third world country gehtto and the film industry is the most superficial piece of crap they have. To even label it as "culture" shows how poor they are in tradition and true refinement. </p>

<p>The ONLY good things they have are Stanford, Caltech, and maybe San Francisco. Everything else they have sucks balls.</p>

138

<p>Wow...West Sidee, you're fricken insane...I'm not even joking: get some help, man...</p>

139

<p>Guttrade's just upset that no school on the west coast will have him. No school on the east will have him either, so he's starting to run out of options. Its cool though, I heard there's some pretty good schools in Guam that he can take a gander at. Or maybe he'll just skip school alltogether and just stare at his framed "likely letter" from Yale that he got about 6 months ago. Hey, didn't they already announce their decisions about a month ago? I'm sure your acceptance just got lost in the mail.</p>

140

<p>Hey. Everyone luvs the west coast better than the east coast. Don't hate! At least you guys pretty much admitted that its all about discriminating on the west coast and not about whats good for our country!</p>

<p>You'll never find vote fraud in California, Washington, etc... especially with Black voting like they did in Ohio and Florida!</p>

<p>Don't hate on the west coast! Whites in California score the highest on the SAT math by about 30 points compared to all other states! We don't sit around thinkin about you guys! We don't make lies about the east coast to make ourselves feel better! LA is the biggest county in the entire US with 11 million people. California is the most diverse state in the world, and we are the true face of America! Don't hate cus all the progress comes from the west! </p>

<p>Anyways... the following quote is the reason I have been saying what I am saying. It seems that after 8 pages or so of arguing, no one can really address the following passage.</p>

<p>
[quote]
BTW, regional politics aside, try to address my points next time buddy. Research wise ( which is the only legitimate way to compare international universities), non US universities are conducting more and more groundbreaking research. Perhaps visa restrictions are the reason a lot of those top professors can't get recruited here. Regardless, my point is that improving research, prestige, and reputation of international schools is making it easier and easier for students to opt out of the US university "standard" when it comes to assessing their most important asset, their education.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Peace!</p>