<p>So sylvan, tell us about the foods!</p>
<p>A few photos from a blogger interested in the food in Achebe’s novel: [food</a> in Things Fall Apart | Nigerian Lit and Cinema](<a href=“http://blogs.cofc.edu/nigerianlitcine/2011/01/17/foo/]food”>http://blogs.cofc.edu/nigerianlitcine/2011/01/17/foo/)</p>
<p>And a list: [What</a> foods were eaten in Things Fall Apart](<a href=“Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's Questions”>What foods were eaten in Things Fall Apart? - Answers)</p>
<p>I have a feeling that Nigerian food is the last thing sylvan8798 wants to think about at the moment—unless it can be rubbed on dogs :): <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1511282-awwk-both-dogs-skunked.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1511282-awwk-both-dogs-skunked.html</a></p>
<p>Let’s return for a minute to the religious aspects of Things Fall Apart, since I think that adherence to the rules of one’s faith is a driving force behind the novel.</p>
<p>Question #10 addresses some of this – although I take issue with certain points:</p>
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<p>Comparing Ikemefuna’s death to the crucifixion of Jesus isn’t fair to God (not that God needs me to defend Him ;)). It’s one thing to choose not to intervene in the death of your son because of a belief that his death will result in an infinitely greater good. It’s another thing to strike down your son with your own hand, out of fear of what others might say about you, as was the case with Okonkwo. The question above is not really accurate: Okonkwo does not simply “allow” the sacrifice to occur with no resistance; he actively participates.</p>
<p>A slightly closer Biblical comparison might be the story of Abraham and Isaac. In that story, God demands that Abraham sacrifice his son:</p>
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<p>Compare to:</p>
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<p>In both stories, the boy to be sacrificed is both trusting and puzzled on the brief journey to the place where he is to die.</p>
<p>Abraham and Okonokwo both draw swords to kill their sons. The essential difference, however, is their motivation. Abraham chooses to obey God’s command because of his great faith and his unshakeable trust in the Lord. Okonkwo, on the other hand, strikes down his son out of fear of men, rather than love (or fear) of God: “Dazed with fear, Okonkwo drew his machete and cut him down. He was afraid of being thought weak” (p. 61).</p>
<p>God spares Isaac because of Abraham’s faith: “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”</p>
<p>It’s an interesting twist: Okonkwo’s actions are exactly the same as Abraham’s, but they are born of weakness rather than strength. There is no miraculous rescue for Ikemefuna. I found his death to be very disturbing. I sympathized with Nwoye and understood why “something gave way inside him” after Ikemefuna’s death, which led him to seek a new life through the missionaries.</p>
<p>As for the other men of the village, I did not blame them for the boy’s murder in the same way I blamed Okonkwo. Although the murder is barbaric to our modern sensibilities, I believe that they were acting out of pure religious faith rather than malice. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that they thought they were doing Ikemefuna a favor (anymore than Abraham thought he was doing Isaac a favor); rather, they were humbly submitting to the will of their God.</p>
<p>As for the three year wait, there I did see a parallel between Ikemefuna and Christ: It is three years from the time that Jesus first reveals himself in the synagogue to the time that he is crucified. </p>
<p>In fact, there are many parallels between Bible stories (both Old and New Testament) and the beliefs/events in Okonkwo’s village. What is Achebe trying to say? Is the Christianity brought by the missionaries any less “primitive” than the religion practiced by the villagers?</p>
<p>Mary, when I read question #10 my reaction was “definitely not”. You were able to tie in a couple of comparisons, but I agree, the deaths are not parallel stories.</p>
<p>For all of Okonokwo’s strength and bravery, he was weak. He was not willing to show emotion, weakness, or failure if front of others. In the book, other tribe leaders sometimes showed their emotions, but Okonokwo lived in the shadow of his father’s shortcomings and refused to show any behavior that would be considered weak. I’m going to jump right to the end now and say the ending bothered me. I wanted to believe Okonokwo killing himself was a honorable ending, that he chose to die rather than surrender his tribal beliefs to the European religion. Instead, I keep coming back to his weakness and inablility to accept failure. He couldn’t save his tribe and thier beliefs, so he gave up. I realize he would have lost no matter what he did, but I didn’t expect him to give up and commit suicide.</p>
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Good question. Achiebe is making a statement about religion, but is it pro or con? My answer to your question is that I see most religions as similar. Day to day practices may differ between religions, but their purpose and reason for being is similar. I thought it was interesting that Mr. Brown, the first missionary to go to the area, was willing to get to know and understand the tribal rituals and compromise with the tribe. The second missionary, Mr. Smith, was more of a fundalmentalist with a very shallow world view. Mr. Smith was the one who caused all the trouble with his “my way is the only way” attitude.</p>
<p>Recently I said something disparaging about Scientology to my son who said to me, “Mom all religions are weird. Look at Christianity - they worship a zombie.” And from a certain light he’s right. </p>
<p>I deliberately didn’t want to know too much about Achebe’s religion when I read the book the first time, but was interested to see that he was brought up by a Christian family who nevertheless kept some Nigerian traditions. So I do think it’s fair game to look for echoes in Christianity. I do agree that the story has more parallels to the story of Abraham and Isaac, but there’s a huge difference in that the religion of their village did not require the father figure to do the killing. When Okonkwo says “The earth cannot punish me for obeying her messenger,” it feels like he’s fishing for an excuse, and he knows in his heart that he deserves to be punished. And indeed all the bad things that happen to him come out of that act - whether it’s from his feelings of guilt or the estrangement from his son. </p>
<p>I like that Achebe was careful to not make all white men bad or good, or all his villagers bad or good. I thought he was pretty even handed. </p>
<p>I found the first part of the book quite slow. I’ve been rereading it today in the hopes of seeing what he’s set up for the second and third parts and wondered what anyone else thought about the scene at the end of chapter five where Obiageli (one of Okonkwo’s daughters) breaks the waterpot and laughs when it happens, but then pretends to cry when she is with her father. The three daughters are contrasted, but I never really got what Achebe was up to with that scene.</p>
<p>mathmom - I remember the scene with Obiageli. It reminded me of the the time my brother broke a window when we were kids. My parents were at a neighbor’s house and my brother was fine when it happened, even though he had cut his finger a little. As soon as my parents came home, he started crying. I always thought he was looking for sympathy so he wouldn’t get in trouble for breaking the window. So, my interpretation of Obiageli’s reaction was the same. I wondered what the purpose was and I assumed it she was looking for sympathy to try to protect herself from Okonokwo’s anger.</p>
<p>Part one seemed seemed a bit like a book of short stories to me. I had a hard time getting into the flow of the book. I considered putting the book down and not finishing it. Only the short length, and assurances from others who already read the book, kept me reading. It seemed Achebe was trying to give us a feel for the different individuals in a tribe and building Okonokwo’s personality to set the stage for his future. Regardless, part one was disjointed.</p>
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<p>I agree. I’m of the opinion that there is one God who reveals himself (herself ;)) in myriad ways across cultures and through time, but that there is a thread that ties all these beliefs together.</p>
<p>An example in Things Fall Apart would be the conversation between Mr. Brown and Akunna about the existence of one God :</p>
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<p>This made me think of the intercession of the saints:</p>
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<p>(Coincidentally, at mass today, the homily was about shared human experience, with our pastor preaching, “Rich or poor, hungry or full, people of different faiths, people of different cultures –- We are like them and they are like us. We all have the same hungers of the soul.”)</p>
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<p>Good point! Abraham is asked to sacrifice Isaac because he is his father, whereas Okonkwo is asked NOT to sacrifice Ikemefuna because of that very same relationship: “That boy calls you father. Do not bear a hand in his death” (p. 57).</p>
<p>Mary, I really enjoyed the conversation in Chapter 21 between Mr. Brown and Akunna. They were trying to understand each other’s beliefs and did so by viewing the new religion through their own beliefs. It was an interesting and insightful conversation.</p>
<p>^ Mr. Brown and Akunna’s attempt to find common ground reminded me of Dances With Wolves and the conversations between Dunbar and the holy man, Kicking Bird. Dunbar tells Kicking Bird that the white men are coming in numbers “like the stars.” In Things Fall Apart, the Oracle tells Obierika that other white men are on their way like “locusts.” </p>
<p>In both cases, the white man rides roughshod over the indigenous people, destroying their culture. As Obierika puts it, “he has put a knife on the things that held us together and we have fallen apart” (p. 176). Although I know that Things Fall Apart is the quintessential African novel, I think it reflects the Native American experience, too.</p>
<p>Speaking of locusts, I was so surprised when they were so happy that the locusts arrived in clouds so they could eat them. (Happily they come after the harvest in Nigeria I guess.) But locusts, while numerous, obviously don’t necessarily have the same bad connotation they have for us, though Achebe probably is aware of the Biblical plague of locusts.</p>
<p>Looks like locusts are doing plague-style damage in certain parts of Africa: [Worrisome</a> map shows billions of locusts pushing across North Africa](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/07/worrisome-map-shows-billions-of-locusts-pushing-across-north-africa/]Worrisome”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/07/worrisome-map-shows-billions-of-locusts-pushing-across-north-africa/)</p>
<p>But still good to eat:</p>
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<p>^Ok, we had foo foo at the neighbor’s once, and some kind of banana dish. There was a soup made with fish pieces and a lot of other unidentifiable ingredients that some people managed to eat using the foo foo, and chicken that was good but spicy. NO locusts, thank goodness :).</p>
<p>I’ve had groundnut (peanut) stew, which is not strictly Nigerian, but eaten all over West Africa. Here’s one version: [Nigerian</a> Groundnut Stew Recipe - Food.com - 171970](<a href=“http://www.food.com/recipe/nigerian-groundnut-stew-171970]Nigerian”>http://www.food.com/recipe/nigerian-groundnut-stew-171970)</p>
<p>To #15. I think father/son relationships often operate as shown in the story, but it’s because they are fundamentally broken. In healthy relationships I think there may be some push back - often in the teen years - where the children question their parents values, but that ideally that leads to a new deeper understanding and love. I think that Okonkwo’s despair is caused mostly by the realization that he has lost all his children and not just that he feels he can’t live in this new colonized world.</p>
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<p>I don’t believe Okonkwo lost all his children. He did not lose Ezinma. I thought his love for her was one of the most affecting parts of the book.</p>
<p>NJTM - Okonkwo loved Ezinma, but it was clear he would have loved her more had she been a boy. To me, their relationship showed another of Okonkwo’s flaws. He didn’t accept he children for who they were. He always wanted something more or different from them.</p>
<p>Ezinma, returns to the visit when she learns that her father is supposed to be hanged, but they never really connect. She gives him a last meal which he eats absentmindedly. As a child she pushes boundaries - calling her mother by her first name, sitting like a boy, but she ends up bound by traditions.</p>
<p>Hi all, 10:00 pm and I just got home from work. I have a feeling the last few days have been busy for all of us.</p>
<p>mathmom, I agree with your comments re the broken relationships (i.e., question 15, “Okonkwo rejects his father’s way and is, in turn, rejected by Nwoye. Do you feel this pattern evolves inevitably through the nature of the father/son relationship? Or is there something more being here than mere generational conflict?”)</p>
<p>For both Okonkwo and Nwoye, there is no going back once each has rejected his father. It isn’t simply a phase in an otherwise healthy relationship. Both the Unoka/Okonkwo and Okonkwo/Nwoye relationships are doomed early on. I lay most of the blame at Okonkwo’s feet. He is ashamed of both his father and his son, and pushes them away when he could have loved them. Okonkwo believes that they reflect poorly on him, but the village is not judgmental in that way: “Fortunately, among these people a man was judged according to his worth and not according to the worth of his father” (p. 8).</p>
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<p>True, but in that way, I don’t blame Okonkwo. He was a product of his culture and that’s a hard thing for anyone to rise above. In the tribe, the male child was the “important” one – the man was clearly the head of the household and he could earn titles that bestowed him with power and status. The women were cooks and childbearers. I think that the fact that Okonkwo repeatedly wishes that Ezinma was a boy is actually a compliment to him, in that it shows he paid attention to her and recognized her gifts.</p>
<p>Along those lines, what do you think about question 11?:</p>
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<p>Perhaps it’s “necessary” to the story because it sets up one more way in which things have fallen apart for Okonkwo. His girl-child has the strength that he associates with powerful men; his boy-child has the gentleness that he associates with weak women. Okonkwo’s world is topsy-turvy.</p>
<p>I think it’s also important to the story that Okonkwo’s favorite child was a girl because if he had had a son who was closer to him and more similar to him, that son might not have turned away from him like Nwoye did.</p>
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<p>This is what I was thinking, more or less, but I didn’t know how to express it. One of the problems with discussing this book is that so much of what the people do is so much a product of their culture that they do not know how to behave in ways that are more familiar and palatable to us.</p>
<p>Okonkwo was a product of his culture, but also a product of his father. Much of Okonkwo’s character, good and bad, is a direct reaction to his father’s failures.</p>
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Oh yes, very topsy-turvy. Okonkwo doesn’t like who he is…a product of his lazy father. He spends his life trying to prove he is nothing like his father…proving he is masculine, proving he is in charge, and proving to himself that he is feared. He feels the conflict inside himself. He notices other leaders who sometimes show “feminine” traits, but Okonkwo will not let what he considers “weak” emotions, behaviors, or feelings show. </p>
<p>I think Okonkwo is drawn to Ezinma because her behavior can be both masculine and feminine. She is allowed to show what he cannot. He probably wouldn’t have liked her as much if she had been a boy.</p>
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Very true!</p>
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Along those lines, the idea that an inevitable change is coming to their culture - and that change might well include women rising from their roles of being property and reproducing to having more power and equality.</p>