"This isn't fair, ______ with much lower stats got in and I didn't!"

Applying to College
141

<p>
[quote]
You can cut it with the personal attacks. What are you trying to accomplish?

[/quote]

Sorry you are taking it that way but I am not really attacking you in any way. I am just disagreeing with you... maybe you misread or misinterpreted my posts again?</p>

<p>
[quote]
And how is my argument wrong? Affirmative action does not really affect white people, but hurts Asian people, who are obviously culturally more academics-based, and so do better in schools.

[/quote]

Holistic admissions and other Asian applicants hurt Asian applicants. If fewer Asians applied fewer Asians would be rejected and the Asian admission rate would increase.</p>

142

<p>
[quote]
if a person is an underrepresented minority they were accepted solely because of Affirmative Action because had the person been born an overrepresented minority or a non-underrepresented minority they may not have been accepted.

[/quote]
Not all, yes, but some. And yes,that is what I've been asserting.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So?

[/quote]
I was talking about MIT.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Hmmm... so why is that you are speaking as though you are very familiar with college admissions?

[/quote]
And since i'm a junior I would not know as much as a senior?</p>

<p>
[quote]
What about "lesser qualified" Asians and Whites getting in over "more qualified" Asians and Whites?

[/quote]
We can extend our argument to mistakes/geographic preferences/socioeconomic AA (which makes the most sense) if you want.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I am pretty sure that the study, which is in favor of Affirmative Action, makes this point.

[/quote]
Yes, it is in favor of AA, because if AA was eliminated, then the number of black and hispanic people admitted would decrease. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Where is the evidence?

[/quote]
Most of the evidence is obviously circumstantial because schools do not release this information. However, you can tell that most CCers think that AA has a big impact on admissions--just look at the comments "chancing" a minority. It is our experience with reading stats on CC and having many friends and classmates who have applied to and gone to college that it does have an impact on acceptances .</p>

143

<p>
[quote]
Well you have outliers of every race, socio-economic background, academic achievement, etc. Why do you choose to focus on the outliers of specific races and gender?

[/quote]
Because a lot of the people in direct contact with me seem to be outliers, when compared to applicants on CC</p>

144

<p>
[quote]
Honey, you're wrong [...]

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
ignorant, naive, immature posters on this forum [...]

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
This really isn't a difficult concept...though evidently it is for you.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
It's okay to admit you were slightly misled...or incapable of basic reading comprehension.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not that I entirely agree with Narcissa's views, but in her defense I'd say this constitutes a personal attack. </p>

<p>@ Newjack: So I have little interest in engaging in another epic battle with you :-O but in skimming through your posts I must say I was nearly offended by #71 in particular --</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, you're a girl what's wrong with you?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What's that supposed to mean?</p>

<p>@PlattsburghLoser: Welcome to CC. You've missed out on some lengthy AA debates in the past, so if you'd care to, skim through the "Fastest Growing Ethnic Category At Great Colleges: Race Unknown" thread. Some good arguments, from both sides, presented there. That and I'd be happy to debate against a fresh perspective, so feel free to challenge me on any of the past things I've posted there. </p>

<p>Bonus points if you can do it without being grossly condescending.</p>

145

<p>
[quote]
Not all, yes, but some. And yes,that is what I've been asserting.

[/quote]

And that's why you have been wrong.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And since i'm a junior I would not know as much as a senior?

[/quote]

Well you are talking about something you have not personally participated in.</p>

<p>
[quote]
However, you can tell that most CCers think that AA has a big impact on admissions--just look at the comments "chancing" a minority. It is our experience with reading stats on CC and having many friends and classmates who have applied to and gone to college that it does have an impact on acceptances.

[/quote]

Most CC'ers do not understand Affirmative Action. That's why we see comments like this, "We can extend our argument to mistakes/geographic preferences/socioeconomic AA (which makes the most sense) if you want."
Since the Bakke case, Affirmative Action has always taken into account geography and socio-economic class. Also, I cannot believe you are basing your whole opinion of Affirmative Action on what you see on this forum...</p>

<p>
[quote]
Because a lot of the people in direct contact with me seem to be outliers, when compared to applicants on CC

[/quote]

Why would you assume CC'ers to be the norm?</p>

146

<p>
[quote]
Not that I entirely agree with Narcissa's views, but in her defense I'd say this constitutes a personal attack.

[/quote]

Sorry, but those are not personal attacks. However, she can choose to receive them that way but that is her own deal... Do you see me taking her assertions that underrepresented minorities cannot get in on their own merits personally?</p>

<p>
[quote]
@ Newjack: So I have little interest in engaging in another epic battle with you :-O but in skimming through your posts I must say I was nearly offended by #71 in particular --</p>

<p>What's that supposed to mean?

[/quote]

Well that's what happens when you skim. You read things out of context...</p>

<p>Anyways, she's a girl and she is diminishing the accomplishments of other girls including herself.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Bonus points if you can do it without being grossly condescending.

[/quote]

It only appears he is being condescending because the person he is debating with is grossly uniformed.</p>

147

<p>
[quote]
It only appears he is being condescending because the person he is debating with is grossly uniformed.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I couldn't have said it better myself.</p>

148

<p>
[quote]
Do you see me taking her assertions that underrepresented minorities cannot get in on their own merits personally?

[/quote]
And have I ever said that all underrepresented minorities cannot get in on their own merits?</p>

<p>
[quote]
And that's why you have been wrong.

[/quote]
And you are very naive to think that (edit) **some **URMs can get in without AA being the "push" factor. If that was true, why would there need to be AA in the first place?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Well you are talking about something you have not personally participated in.

[/quote]
So? Reading about college applications on CC and looking at information online is pretty much similar to actually filling out an application and sending it in the mail.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It only appears he is being condescending because the person he is debating with is grossly uniformed.

[/quote]
Care, then, to enlighten me on how URMs with 1700 SAT scores are able to get into an elite college when this is next to impossible for white or asian applicants? Are URMs inherently more "interesting" than whites or asians?</p>

149

<p>
[quote]
And have I ever said that all underrepresented minorities cannot get in on their own merits?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
And you are very naive to think that if URMs can get in without AA being the "push" factor. If that was true, why would there need to be AA in the first place?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>For the sake of the ten character limit, it seems as if you are suggesting the former.</p>

150

<p>emphasis on all; i do not believe that all or even most underrepresented minorities cannot get in on their own merits</p>

151

<p>gb. perhaps i wasn't clear, or you can stop twisting my words</p>

<p>this thread is pointless now because nobody is saying anything new and all we're doing is attacking each other.</p>

152

<p>But I think the reason the rejections hurt so much and make students so angry when another student who seems less qualified is admitted is that it ISN'T FAIR.</p>

<p>And this experience, for many students (especially those who have been well-protected from life's adversities, and who haven't had a bolt-from-the-blue accident or illness affect their lives) is the first experience with the truism that life isn't fair. You've heard it said, but deep down you thought you were playing a game, and if you played by all the rules, and played hard, the referees and scorekeepers would award you your well-deserved win. And it didn't happen. And it sucks. And it makes you mad. </p>

<p>Your anger is understandable, and CC is a good place to vent. But this is one of the hardest lessons to learn. The really hard part? Getting over it and doing your best and continuing to strive even when you know that it may not pay off in the way you want, because life isn't fair. But that's what you have to do. </p>

<p>In 4 years you may not get a job because somebody who is slightly less qualified is the nephew of another manager in the company. Not fair. But that doesn't mean you are going to starve to death in the cold. You'll find another job, and you'll have a great life.</p>

<p>At some point in life many people start doing things because the intrinsic value is there for them, whether it is working, studying, volunteering, or spending time with friends and family. That's when the sting of life's not being fair gets a little less painful. Because you realize it's not a game you can win. </p>

<p>Play for fun. You'll enjoy it more.</p>

<p>Once more - I really understand your hurt and anger. But life will go on, and if you embrace your other opportunities once you have mourned the loss of this dream, you'll have a great life. If you let this disappointment make you bitter and cynical, then you really have "lost."</p>

153

<p>Ah, Narcissa has left for good probably, but I want to ask her: has she ever interacted with someone (her own age, probably) outside her social class?</p>

154

<p>Should I be standing up for a random stranger? Well, since I had some bad experience on CC with people accusing me of stupid stuff without knowing me at all, and others who had been kind. So..
^Galoisien, I am guessing you are from a prep school right? Narcissa as far as I know is from a public school like me and believe me from my personal view point public school kids have gone through it all as far as I come from. There is not a kid from my group of friends who hasn't held an after school job. I had held 2 since my dad died.
You guys have been real harsh on Narcissa period, twisting her words. I hv nothing against AA myself and so it seems Narcissa doesn't either frm some posts I read so far. My gosh you will be calling her racist afterwards! White guy calling an Asian girl racist, heavens!
And another thing, you guys say people are judging others who got in without knowing the whole deal beyond their scores and stuff. Kettle calling the pot black since you have made some random accusations without knowing Narcissa and whoever else got the bite here.
Period. Also it may seem some of us are hung on SAT Reasoning test and SAT subject tests scores. But in my own public school it was the only avenue for some of us to prove our aptitude since some our school didn't have AP courses or some of the higher prep courses other schools had. </p>

<p>Stop cyber bullying random people.</p>

155

<p>
[quote]
Care, then, to enlighten me on how URMs with 1700 SAT scores are able to get into an elite college when this is next to impossible for white or asian applicants? Are URMs inherently more "interesting" than whites or asians?

[/quote]

See this is why your perspective on Affirmative Action is naive, uninformed, ignorant, etc. </p>

<p>I am pretty sure you are referencing that one Hispanic poster who started a thread to encourage others who do not necessarily meet the schools average test scores to go ahead an apply to Stanford (and other prestigious schools) because they maybe accepted like he was.</p>

<p>I really like how you and may other CC'ers conveniently point to his test scores as a means to diminish his accomplishments and to make it appear as though he did not deserve to go to Stanford. What is incredibly disappointing to see is that these supposedly intelligent kids on CC demonstrate their naitivity by ignoring the fact that this one Hispanic kid took advantage of all of the few opportunities presented to him and even created some for himself. You all love to overlook the fact that the kid went to a terrible inner city school, had a near perfect GPA, took the hardest classes available to him, had extraordinary extracurriculars, probably wrote a well-written, interesting essay given the fact that he is a good writer and has many interesting experiences to tell admissions officers about.</p>

<p>You all ought to be embarassed for overlooking these things just so that you can diminish someone else's accomplishments. This is incredibly shameful behavior.</p>

<p>Even if you did not know all this, Narcissa, why would you readily believe that underrepresented minorities are routinely accepted with 1700 SAT scores? Sometimes the readiness of many CC posters to gobble up stories about the inherent "inferiority" of underrepresented minorities worries me... If I am not mistaken someone in this thread started an entire thread about how men are inherently better at math and sciences than women are simply because there are more male USAMO finalists... I do not understand how people fail to realize that it is these sorts of stereotypes that are hindering many, in this case women, from reaching their full potential.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You guys have been real harsh on Narcissa period, twisting her words.

[/quote]

No one is twisting her words. She probably thinks we are though because she does not realize that we are mainly discussing what she has been implying in her posts not what she has actually said.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I hv nothing against AA myself and so it seems Narcissa doesn't either frm some posts I read so far.

[/quote]

That's not the issue. Narcissa has suggested and even confirmed that she believes that Affirmative Action is the "sole" factor that allows underrepresented minorities to get into highly selective schools. She even said that, regardless of her qualifications, if she were accepted into MIT it would be because she was a girl and not because she was qualified.</p>

<p>
[quote]
My gosh you will be calling her racist afterwards! White guy calling an Asian girl racist, heavens!

[/quote]

You are implying that Asians cannot be racist and that all Whites males are racist...</p>

<p>
[quote]
And another thing, you guys say people are judging others who got in without knowing the whole deal beyond their scores and stuff. Kettle calling the pot black since you have made some random accusations without knowing Narcissa and whoever else got the bite here.
Period.

[/quote]

Not true. What have we been accusing her of other than that she is uninformed about Affirmative Action and college admissions? In many of her posts she reaffirms that she is uninformed on these matter.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Stop cyber bullying random people.

[/quote]

Narcissa is not being bullied. People are just disagreeing with her opinions and trying to convince her to at least become more informed before expressing such strong opinions.</p>

156

<p>Here is the Hispanic student Narcissa and many other CC'ers are asserting to be the normal URM applicant:</p>

<p>
[quote]
School: Public (in CA) Hardly ever sends out kids to great schools
GPA: 3.923 (THIS IS A WEIGHTED GPA, OUR VALEDICTORIAN HAS A 4.22)
Class Rank: 7/351 (Top 2%)
Ethnicity: Mexican American (Chicano)
Gender: Male</p>

<p>SAT I: 1700 (600 writing, 580 math, 520 critical reading) (very poor i know!!!)</p>

<p>SAT II: Spanish 690 (very poor as well, but I am fluent, just a horrible test taker)</p>

<p>AP Courses offered at our high school: Spanish, French, Calculus AB, Eng. Language, Eng. Literature, and Biology.</p>

<p>AP Courses that I have taken/will take:
11th: English Literature, Biology
12th: French, English Literature</p>

<p>***I will be the only student in my class to take all of the AP tests offered at our school.</p>

<p>College Credit Classes taken/taking at community college so far:
Gen. Psychology: grade~ A
Trigonometry: grade~ A
Intro to Sociology: grade ~ A
Calculus: grade ~ in progress
American Minority Groups: grade ~ in progress</p>

<p>EXTRACURRICULAR ACTIVITIES:
AVID 9th, 10th, 11th1 12th
-2004-05 Freshman President
-2005-06 Executive Council Member
-2006 Delegate at Regional Leadership Conference
-2006 Student Spirit Award
-2006-07 President
-2007 Student Inspiration Award
-2007 AVID Student of the Year Award
-2007 Overnight Trip Committee Chair</p>

<p>STUDENTS FOR CULTURAL ENRICHMENT 10th, 11th
-2006-07 President</p>

<p>A.C.C.E.P.T. (Academic, Community, & Cultural Enrichment Program for Triumph) 11th, 12th
-Founder/Creator
-2007-08 Chairperson</p>

<p>KEY CLUB 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th
-Over 250 Hours of Community Service in just Key Club alone.</p>

<p>ASB 11th , 12th
-2007-08 Student Rep. to the School Board
-Master of Ceremonies at 2007 Youth Night in the Park
-CADA Leadership Conference</p>

<p>CALIFORNIA SCHOLARSHIP FEDERATION 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th
-Life Member
-2005-06 Vice-President</p>

<p>Mu Alpha THeta 11th, 12th
-Member
-2006-07 President</p>

<p>M.E.Ch.A. 11th, 12th
-2006 Delegate at UC Davis Chicano Youth State Conference
-2007 Delegate at Cal Poly Chicano Youth State Conference
-2007 Delegate at BizTalk with ex-Presidente Vicente Fox of Mexico</p>

<p>CAMP ROYAL Summer 2007
-One of two delegates from Dinuba High School</p>

<p>LINK CREW 11th, 12th
-Link Crew Leader for Freshmen Students</p>

<p>HISPANIC YOUTH SYMPOSIUM Summer 2007
-Delegate from Dinuba High School
-Youth Venture Issues to Action Finalist
-Earned one college unit</p>

<p>CHURCH ALTAR SERVER AND LECTOR 9th, 10th, 11th
-2004-06 Group Captain
-2005 Diocese of Fresno's Serra Club Award
-Youngest and only teen Church Lector</p>

<p>WORK EXPERIENCE:
Tutor for Third Grader
-September 2006 ~ June 2007
-8 hours/week</p>

<p>Tutor for Fourth Grader
-June 2007 ~ August 2007
-4 hours/week</p>

<p>Tutor for Fifth Grader
-June 2007 ~ August 2007
-4 hours/week</p>

<p>DISTINCTIONS/HONORS: (not anything too special)
-2005 Academic Letter
-2005 Green Chevron
-2007 Top Ten Class Rank Award
-2006, 2006, 2007, 2007, 4.0 GPA White Chevrons
-2007-08 Student Council Letter
-DAR (Daughters of American Revolution) Dinuba High School Nominee</p>

<p>I AM VERY FOND OF THE SOCIAL SCIENCES AND WOULD LIKE TO MAJOR IN THEM. I COME FROM A PREDOMINATELY LATINO COMMUNITY IN THE CENTRAL VALLEY IN CALIFORNIA WHERE MOST OF THE STUDENTS DROP OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL AND DO NOT ATTEND A FOUR YEAR UNIVERSITY. MY FUTURE ASPIRATION IS TO TARGET COMMUNITIES SUCH AS MINE, AND HELP MORE AND MORE STUDENTS BE AWARE OF COLLEGE AND THE BENEFITS OF LEARNING etc...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Finally, I have also been nominated to attend the Governor's Recongition Banquet in Sacramento for the service and scholastic achievements I have exemplified, so that should be exciting to meet Arnold. Plus, my dream is to one day become governor, so I might ask him for advice, lol.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You really have to be kidding yourself if you think such an applicant would not have been accepted had he or she been White or Asian. </p>

<p>I would bet you anything that this kid wrote a well-written and interesting essay. I would also bet that he had glowing recommendations. Look at the wealth of experience he has to draw from. I doubt this kid wrote about the time he got the game winning goal or how did "research" at some lab or how he "learned" about poverty by going to a soup kitchen a couple times or how he did something to get into college but then realized that it had greater value (Amazing Asian student from my friend's school near perfect GPA and test scores and "good" ECs wrote an essay about how he started volunteering at a soup kitchen just to get into good colleges but then realized how great of an experience it ended up being. No suprise here that he was rejected from all of the Ivies he applied to... he ended up at Boston College, which is still a good school.)</p>

<p>EDIT:
This is pretty much the embodiment of naitivity on CC.</p>

<p>Hispanic applicant:

[quote]
thank you very much, other than the fact that I have been dreaming of Stanford for the longest time, the main reason I wanted to get accepted so badly is because I want to INSPIRE OTHERS!!!, hopefully i can do so, not everyone has the opportunity to score a 2400 on SATs.</p>

<p>I think that a persons traits such as drive, ambition, and passion are what mostly count. ANd thats the message that I want to convey to the 80% of students who do not go to college at our high school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Response:

[quote]
not everyone has the opportunity to score 2400 on the SAT? The test only costs around $40, and if your really poor, they'll give you a fee waiver.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hispanic applicant:

[quote]
It is my passion to try and "inspire" others, that is why I try to do the kind of things I do.</p>

<p>Thanks again to all, once again, I am very humbled and honored to have been accepted.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Responses:

[quote]
Stanford might have made a mistake.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
You seem to be implying that those who are more qualified than you aren't making big impacts in their own communities. I've seen students who started nonprofits in their towns to raise $20k+, students who brought organizations to their communities to help out the poor, students who spend most of their time not studying or captaining the math team or presiding over the student government, but working hard in their communities to better them. These students were rejected (not to mention Asian).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Way to go CC'ers...</p>

157

<p>Ugh, new Jack88 I am not playing your game. I didn't call anyone racist or implying so. Now you are twisting my words :)
Peace out.</p>

158

<p>
[quote]
It only appears he is being condescending because the person he is debating with is grossly uniformed.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In which case, let me be the first to thank you all for being so kind as to spend several pages' worth of posts trying to engage someone so "grossly uninformed" that you simply can't help but be rude and insulting in the process. Because, y'know... the Internets is serious business.</p>

<p>
[quote]
What have we been accusing her of other than that she is uninformed about Affirmative Action [...]

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, you've accused her of being incapable of basic reading comprehension, for one.</p>

<p>Seriously, whether or not you agree with someone, is it that hard to stay civil?</p>

159

<p>
[quote]
Ugh, new Jack88 I am not playing your game. I didn't call anyone racist or implying so. Now you are twisting my words
Peace out.

[/quote]

See ya. I did not twist your words at all. Next time choose your words more carefully so that you do not imply things you do not mean to. ;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
In which case, let me be the first to thank you all for being so kind as to spend several pages' worth of posts trying to engage someone so "grossly uninformed" that you simply can't help but be rude and insulting in the process. Because, y'know... the Internets is serious business.

[/quote]

Why should we allow such strong, uninformed opinions to go unchallenged? I think it's pretty safe to say that not challenging strong, uninformed opinions is against the societal good. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Well, you've accused her of being incapable of basic reading comprehension, for one.

[/quote]

Did I? No. Even if I had it does appear that she is not understanding what we are saying. She has responded to many of my posts with irrelevant comments, like "it was sarcasm," which have led me to believe that she is not understanding what many of the posters have been saying to her.</p>

160

<p>
[quote]

^Galoisien, I am guessing you are from a prep school right?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am from a public school in the middle of nowhere (Maine).</p>

<p>Last year my family had no income but our child support. </p>

<p>Perhaps you should reconsider your assumptions. And oh please I'm Asian too.</p>

<p>While Narcissa is lamenting about "underqualified" people attending MIT and 'ousting' "more qualified" applicants (because Narcissa knows everything about being an AdCom officer, right?) I cry for a friend who's an exceptional athlete with an extremely insightful and promising mind who doesn't have the usual stats because their parents think a B- average is good enough and don't value academic distinction; a girl from a conservative Muslim family who's diligent and hardworking -- but guess what? Her parents don't think she should go to college. There are many sharp and witty minds out there that are being consigned to inferior futures because of their circumstances and background.</p>

<p>If you think this is "cyber-bullying," please wait till you actually get to college and witness the sharp exchanges between academics.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There is not a kid from my group of friends who hasn't held an after school job. I had held 2 since my dad died.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My family can't even afford the car in which I could attend a place of work. Tell me, how rural is your environment?</p>