This Process Has Made Me Racist

College Confidential Community
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<p>lol Mr. Payne what are you talking about.</p>

<p>-AA has nothing to do with discrimination against asians. And just because a person, asian or not, has all the things that they THINK top universities are looking for, doesn't mean they're entitled to a spot over anyone else. </p>

<p>-Asians ARENT being discriminated against because of AA. They probably aren't being discriminated against at any other top universities. It's just people saying "well i tried so hard to do all the things that i READ colleges are looking for, so i should get it". Well tough, if you didn't get in, then you didn't have what a university is looking for.</p>

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<p>and when did you ever hear that URMs are arguing to limit asians? That was the more racist then what the OP said. Nobody's arguing to limit asians, what are you even talking about?</p>

<p>-Mr. Payne, stop just making up statistics out of the blue. I said that about 4% were probably tipped by AA, which is a good estimate regardless of how much sports helped, because that has nothing to do with what we were talking about.</p>

<p>So now that we're done making things up, that would mean about 60 students per AA school had AA as their tip, and since no top university is taking more then a couple students with less than an 1800 SAT score, it means that african americans that get into top universities test well and there are more than 150 you're talking about.</p>

<p>And you keep talking about quotas, AA and quotas aren't even related, its a matter of allowing race to be a tip in university admissions.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I didn't even bring Asians up in my post, what the hell are you talking about (and what hat did you pull your accusation of xenophobia out of?), but yes, they are overrepresented in proportion to their populace numbers - people of groups whose membership correlate to poverty are not.

[/quote]
AA discriminates against Asians. Wanting to maintain race based AA means wanting to maintain this discrimination. Perhaps you are thinking: Why not allow more asians, but decrease the amount of Whites? Fair enough. But whites are already underrepresented in top colleges. Hardly a fair (whatever the hell that means) outcome for those trying to get equality.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Asians are definitely targets of racism, but just as previous ethnic groups (which in itself is a bit odd to say in relation to "Asians"- a lot of groups fall under this category, and South Asians are NOT in the same situation as their counterparts) that climbed up the class ladder broke through poverty lines and into academia, they do not need the same KIND of structural assistance that people of African, Hispanic, South-Asian descent do.</p>

<p>In addition, it is wholly wrong to be looking at this as a race issue, rather than one of socioeconomic situation. We need more working-class kids in academia for it to get anywhere, and for these groups to get anywhere, too - period.

[/quote]
The people who make AA arguments are framing it as a race issue. Furthermore, it will continue to be a race issue as long as URMs continue to underperform at each income level when compared to Asians (and whites).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
lol Mr. Payne what are you talking about.</p>

<p>-AA has nothing to do with discrimination against asians. And just because a person, asian or not, has all the things that they THINK top universities are looking for, doesn't mean they're entitled to a spot over anyone else.

[/quote]
Asians have to meet a higher criteria to get admitted. End. Of. Story.</p>

<p>
[quote]
-Asians ARENT being discriminated against because of AA. They probably aren't being discriminated against at any other top universities. It's just people saying "well i tried so hard to do all the things that i READ colleges are looking for, so i should get it". Well tough, if you didn't get in, then you didn't have what a university is looking for.

[/quote]
They are held to a higher standard. Why are the held to a higher standard? Hint: Because Asians already populate a large percentage of the school.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
and when did you ever hear that URMs are arguing to limit asians? That was the more racist then what the OP said. Nobody's arguing to limit asians, what are you even talking about?

[/quote]
That's what happens when you make space for underperformers. You have to take it from someone else. </p>

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[quote]
-Mr. Payne, stop just making up statistics out of the blue. I said that about 4% were probably tipped by AA, which is a good estimate regardless of how much sports helped, because that has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

[/quote]
I disagree, realistically, I'd say AA tips 75% of the people who get in. This is extremely conservative for one big reason. Even if URMs reached the level of whites academically, they should still have a low (~20-30%) admit rate. I suspect that of the URMs that meet the average academics of admitted freshmen, they likely have a much higher 70-80% admit rate. That's what the boost does. </p>

<p>
[quote]
So now that we're done making things up, that would mean about 60 students per AA school had AA as their tip, and since no top university is taking more then a couple students with less than an 1800 SAT score, it means that african americans that get into top universities test well and there are more than 150 you're talking about.

[/quote]
Wow. 1450/1600. Please think before you post. I used this number because there is much more historical data using the old SAT. Not that the new SAT changes the numbers, it still maintains the legacy of underperformance.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And you keep talking about quotas, AA and quotas aren't even related, its a matter of allowing race to be a tip in university admissions.

[/quote]
You obviously don't know how this process works. Let me enlighten you. Top tier colleges generally give black students at 200+ SAT score tip when getting into college (on the 1600 point SAT). Why did they settle with 200 as opposed to 150 or 100? They know, based on previous data and of the data they have for the currently admitted class, what boost needs to be given to applicants to get the "8-12%" of their class who is black.</p>

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<p>no....thats not how it works. At all. they don't just tack on points to an SAT score. You don't understand AA. Did you ever think that maybe if every asian just marked "white" the same amount of asians would get in? Maybe it's because colleges don't value someone with a 2300 SAT score over someone with a 2100 SAT score as much as you think...</p>

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<p>Tyler, a lot of colleges do actually add points in some way to URMs. Look at Michigan's formula for admissions.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
no....thats not how it works. At all. they don't just tack on points to an SAT score. You don't understand AA. Did you ever think that maybe if every asian just marked "white" the same amount of asians would get in? Maybe it's because colleges don't value someone with a 2300 SAT score over someone with a 2100 SAT score as much as you think...

[/quote]
Laughable. SATs correlate well with admittance. If Asians marked the same as white more would get in. Being Asian is a disadvantage in admissions.</p>

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<p>michigans formula doesnt exist any more. And if you want to say that being asian is a disadvantage, then you have every right to believe that. But don't try to attribute it to AA when you have no idea what you're talking about.</p>

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<p>Everything else being equal, is it easier to get in being Black or Asian? Black. Done.</p>

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<p>at the top 20 or so universities, yup its harder. But at all other universities, asians get a diversity tip just like all other URMS.</p>

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<p>I doubt there would be any advantage for asian applicants over white applicants up until Top 50+. And anyway, I've maintained that the top universities are the biggest practitioners of AA (because of the huge dearth of URM academic talent at that level).</p>

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<p>Mr Payne, where exactly do you get the idea that whites are UNDERREPRESENTED at top colleges? It is absolutely wrong. Princeton has had 59-63% white enrollment the latest years, with Asians being the next most represented group; same thing at Harvard, 46-48%, Dartmouth 60%...</p>

<p>Your constant reference to lower SAT scores tells us nothing about the issue, only about your own prejudices. Unless you are saying URM:s receiving a lower SAT score is, somehow,
1) an indication minorities are less intelligent than white people as a group
or
2) a sound prediction these groups will not succeed in college (which we by now know is false)
-- you have no argument against ignoring lower SAT scores of URM:s in the name of promoting diversity, equality and getting underrepresented (Asians are not) groups to weigh in on and change academia.</p>

<p>If you believe poor minorities are not inherently less intelligent than white people, and I do, then you have to come to the conclusion that it isn't the minorities that are flawed - it is the SAT. It is the conditions under which minorities live. We'd have to address all these issues before we could start speaking of a truely equal admissions playing field, and this in turn will not happen until we create an academia that is diverse and has room for voices that are usually not heard in society to change it, and society, from the inside out.</p>

<p>It's not all about you, goldilocks.</p>

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<p>I haven't read the debating, and I'm not going to.</p>

<p>I'm just going to say that when I went college visiting, I met some amazing URMs (and I am one myself, who isn't half as amazing) who were attending college, who not only came from disadvantaged neighborhoods, but had also accomplished great things. One was an orphan, the other had a child, but they'd all managed to do so much with their lives. </p>

<p>I felt that each and every one deserved to be there. But maybe that's just me. Try and keep an open mind, hm?</p>

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<p>Most URMs I've met aren't from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds. Although we might have needed racially based AA in the past, I think it's clear that AA needs to change, and it has in states like Michigan.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Mr Payne, where exactly do you get the idea that whites are UNDERREPRESENTED at top colleges? It is absolutely wrong. Princeton has had 59-63% white enrollment the latest years, with Asians being the next most represented group; same thing at Harvard, 46-48%, Dartmouth 60%...

[/quote]
Non-Jewish Whites are clearly underrepresented. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Your constant reference to lower SAT scores tells us nothing about the issue, only about your own prejudices.

[/quote]
I see. Repeating the truth is somehow revealing my prejudices. Just when I say that being Asian is disadvantageous in the admission processes and that's why AA should be ended. Is that also revealing my prejudices (and if yes, what prejudices would these be)?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Unless you are saying URM:s receiving a lower SAT score is, somehow,
1) an indication minorities are less intelligent than white people as a group

[/quote]
I believe that SAT scores correlate well with intelligence (known fact). This is just basic knowledge, why else would colleges use them?</p>

<p>
[quote]
2) a sound prediction these groups will not succeed in college (which we by now know is false)

[/quote]
Actually, I don't think SAT scores matter that much in non-tech majors. Technical majors, where academic success heavily correlates to IQ is a much different story. SATs are very valuable then.

[quote]
-- you have no argument against ignoring lower SAT scores of URM:s in the name of promoting diversity, equality and getting underrepresented (Asians are not) groups to weigh in on and change academia.

[/quote]
Promoting diversity while hurting others does no good. None at all. College admissions are a zero sum game, that's why I think one should let the cream rise to the top. Doing PC BS and allowing underqualified people in is wrong. It was wrong when Harvard didn't allow more than 15% Jews and it's wrong when they don't allow more than 15% Asians. </p>

<p>
[quote]
If you believe poor minorities are not inherently less intelligent than white people, and I do, then you have to come to the conclusion that it isn't the minorities that are flawed - it is the SAT.

[/quote]
How exactly is the math SAT flawed? If anything the school system is flawed. The SAT, at least the Math, is not flawed.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It is the conditions under which minorities live. We'd have to address all these issues before we could start speaking of a truely equal admissions playing field, and this in turn will not happen until we create an academia that is diverse and has room for voices that are usually not heard in society to change it, and society, from the inside out.

[/quote]
When the people who benefit from AA are upper class students in the 1200-1300 (out of 1600) SAT score range, then no - they do not need help.</p>

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<p>With acceptance rates so low, 'qualified' people will inevitably be rejected at many of the top universities. Criteria like these are needed to differentiate between the many qualified applicants.</p>

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<p>Why do you keep bringing up that the only people that benefit from AA are upperclass students? That claims been proven false like 12 times. Maybe thats 50% of what you see at the top 10 universities, but at any other university thats not the case at all. This just goes along with the general Asian assumption that any college thats not HYPS or MIT doesnt count. (not stereotyping, it happens).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Why do you keep bringing up that the only people that benefit from AA are upperclass students? That claims been proven false like 12 times. Maybe thats 50% of what you see at the top 10 universities, but at any other university thats not the case at all. This just goes along with the general Asian assumption that any college thats not HYPS or MIT doesnt count. (not stereotyping, it happens).

[/quote]
Where did I say that AA only benefits upper-middle class students? I think AA is wrong because it benefits those who don't need the help.</p>

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<p>what are you, like afraid that black people are going to become as affluent as white people? Does that scare you?</p>