<p>jc40, I truly appreciate your attitude and point of view. I don’t understand how anyone can claim that writing LOR’s (if and only if the prof can sincerely recommend the student) is not part of a prof’s job when the entire system of applying to grad school is dependent upon them–and the profs themselves would not be where they are today if no one wrote LOR’s for them. It really doesn’t matter whether the task is explicitly listed in the prof’s job description or is a criterion for advancement (though it should be). I’ve done myriad tasks in my career that weren’t written down anywhere and for which I got no particular recognition, but they were nonetheless part of carrying out my work in a responsible and meaningful way. For a professor, meeting with students during office hours for extra help or offering advice on internship possibilities would probably fall into the same category of unlisted and unrewarded job responsibilities as writing LOR’s, but they are all part of the job nonetheless. As for gratitude, D thanked her recommenders profusely, gave them token gifts, and had kept them apprised of her results. That’s just simple courtesy.</p>
<p>But back to my D’s particular situation. The good result does not in my mind excuse this professor’s poor performance is keeping my D dangling for months (literally), asking for a draft letter, and making the ridiculous demand to be reminded hourly. It’s actually a shame that her inepititude in this area does not factor into her evaluations or any other professor’s, since the LOR process is a major nexus in the student/professor relationship.</p>
<p>I think that most departments have their share of people like jc40, who do care, and want to help to make a difference for their students. The letter-writing does tend to fall on them quite disproportionately. A number of faculty draw motivation from remembering that they were helped by people who wrote for them, and therefore they feel the responsibility to pass the benefits forward.</p>
<p>I had a memorable talk with one of our former college presidents, about 25 years ago now. He remarked that, “People say that there is no reward for teaching. But the students know” who cares about teaching.</p>
<p>Lots of things that a faculty member should do (e.g., writing letters, putting extra effort into teaching) carry no evident reward, and may take time away from work that is better recognized professionally. Those who do it tend to do so because they think that it is right. I commend you, jc40, and hope that you will have a long and happy career.</p>
<p>(bookworm–thanks for the compliment. It’s really the qualities of the students + taking a bit of time to identify their particular strengths, and not my writing skill.)</p>
<p>MommaJ–I’m going to guess that you are talking either about an Assistant Professor, or a woman with young children. Either situation imposes incredible time burdens. I agree that the request to be reminded hourly has got to be uniquely weird.</p>
<p>Actually, having reviewed a few of the early posts, I found that the faculty member in question is an Assistant Professor, who may have young children on top of that. Did she actually ask to be reminded hourly? Sorry, I have not reread the entire thread. In the original post, MommaJ mentioned that the professor asked to be reminded every few days. That’s still a little weird, but not totally over the top.</p>
<p>I took a look at post #85. It makes me wonder whether the faculty member had just recently been denied tenure. That could account for that type of reaction. Otherwise it is hard to imagine–death in the family? Something else really major?</p>
<p>Because LORs are meant to be favors for students the Prof feels are the best academically and to a limited extent…those with reasonably passable social skills(i.e. Not entitled, rude, unable to take the initiative to go to the Prof’s office hours to not only ask questions, but also know him/her as a unique human being/potential mentor). </p>
<p>Making it their job has the implication that every student who asks is automatically entitled to an LOR. Something which is not only unacceptable, but would also undermine one of the key purposes of the LOR…a gatekeeping function to ensure only those the Prof felt are deserving of them get them and those that don’t get noting. </p>
<p>I can only imagine how thrilled grad school adcoms/Profs will be at the greater avalanche of LORs…</p>
<p>In short, students have to EARN those LORs and high academic achievement isn’t always enough alone. They’re meant to be favors from the Prof…not entitlements. </p>
<p>One also needs to show some extremely basic social courtesies so one doesn’t end up imparting a negative impression whether it’s the student sleeping visibly in class or the obnoxious grade-grubbing pre-med getting on the Prof/TA’s nerves because he/she “only” has an B+/-A and hopes to increase that by wearing down the Prof/TA with endless whining.</p>
<p>Just to add to #185 and #186: sorry about your daughter’s experience, MommaJ. It sounds as though there may have been some serious problem, which the professor did not discuss with your daughter–definitely the problem was unrelated to your daughter.</p>
<p>In the course of a long faculty career, one learns that faculty members and their families are not immune to the normal range of human problems.</p>
<p>@cobrat–read once again the words that you quoted and note the parenthetical. I am in no way suggesting that any student is automatically entitled to an LOR. But if a prof does feel that a student has the appropriate credentials for a grad school program, I don’t think the LOR should be refused on the basis of–well, on the basis of what exactly? That the prof has had a bad day? That he already wrote two LOR’s this month and is bored with the idea of doing a third? That the student’s tattoos are kind of creepy? Once the provision of an LOC is relegated to being a “favor”, there’s no guarantee even the most qualified student will be able to finagle the needed recommendations. </p>
<p>I actually believe that the vast majority of professors see the writing of LOR’s for qualified applicants as a professional obligation and a way to pay it forward, regardless of whether it will win them brownie points with their department or the administration. And I also believe that very few handle the process as poorly as my D’s prof.</p>
<p>If one’s recommending them for academic graduate programs…especially PhD programs, there’s also going to be an element of “collegiality” along with academic qualifications. </p>
<p>Since grad students…especially in small Masters and especially PhD programs will be spending the vast majority of their time working with fellow grad students in their department/subfield and their respective Profs for long periods…the graduate department needs to know whether the potential grad student is seriously committed to the field and will be able to “fit” with the department/Prof and otherwise “get along” with everyone else with as little conflict/friction as possible. </p>
<p>If a Prof develops a reputation of referring too many undergrads who later turn out to be poor fits with grad programs because they don’t fit with the department, exceedingly socially inept, or otherwise antagonize/cause conflicts(a.k.a. “Troublemakers”) within the department or with Profs…that Prof’s LORs may not be taken seriously in the future or worse, effectively serve as a negative mark on the entire application for future applicants from that particular undergrad college.</p>
<p>For instance, one older college friend was specifically advised not to apply to certain Poli-sci departments because they were exceedingly quantitatively oriented and said friend was more qualitatively oriented. Even assuming those departments accepted him, neither side would benefit as those departments would regard him as a “misfit” and he wouldn’t get the mentoring he needs from their faculty/department.</p>
<p>Well, I have refused LOR for good students, when I honestly don’t have the time to write a good letter (the same reason I would refuse any other favor). And for the reasons cobrat mentions (high maintenance student, socially inept, etc).</p>
<p>The professor in your daughter’s case very likely had a personal problem that she should have discussed with your daughter, that was wrong. But, she was doing her a FAVOR.</p>
<p>Mommaj, I am so glad that it worked out for your daughter in the end and sorry for all the grief and stress caused by this professor. </p>
<p>Having read through the thread, I am coming back to your statement that you pay the professor’s salary by paying your daughter’s tuition. It rubbed me the wrong way, and I think that’s because it implies that a student receiving financial aid or a scholarship whose parent didn’t pay the professor’s salary because they didn’t pay tuition is somehow less worthy of a letter of recommendation. I am sure you didn’t intend to say something like that but that’s what I would think if I were a scholarship/financial aid recipient or parent of same at your daughter’s school and heard or read your statement.</p>
It rubbed me the wrong way for a different reason, because it basically suggests that “I’m your boss and you have to do what I say.” That would lead to my being “required” to write a LOR for the D, regardless of my circumstances or personal opinion of the D and her qualifications.</p>
<p>I agree that going into detail about some personal problem might not be appropriate depending on how familiar the two were; however, I would probably go as far as to say that I was overwhelmed right now and reassure the student that I would get to it before the deadline.</p>
<p>Exactly. The idea that it is some humongous FAVOR to write a LOR is pretty outrageous, IMHO. And to call students who ask for LORs “entitled” is equally so. I can see who is “entitled” here, and it isn’t the student.</p>
<p>My S recently missed out on a couple of fellowship deadlines because his wonderful but ecccentric mentor professor (with whom he has a close relationship) sent the recs to the wrong address. And a week late. His other professor got the recs to him by email literally at the last minute–in Europe–and apologized for the delay, giving S permission to sign them for him. S had to download and print them, sign them, scan them, email them to us, and we had to download and print them and get them in envelopes and to the post office that is open until 7PM for the required postmark. Literally, we were doing this with Skype and cell phone communication in the last 30 minutes before the postal deadline. H left the house and started driving to his office before they came through because he could print them out there 20 minutes closer to the post office. This was all about 1 AM S’s time, btw, so where he was it was actually PAST the deadline. Luckily the building with the scanner was still open at that hour in France. H made it to the post office with 5 minutes to spare.</p>
<p>He had given both of them at least 6 weeks notice–I think more–and both could recycle prior recs for him. They both said they would do it. I’m grateful that they have both supported him and continue to do so, but honestly…the things he missed out on are things that could potentially mean tens of thousands less debt for grad school. He has another professor who has done recs for him, no fuss, no muss, no problem, but these two are crucial.</p>
<p>I remember getting recommendations from two very well known people from my LAC back in the day, both of whom not only had full teaching loads but were published poets and scholars with their own work. (Robert Pinsky and David Ferry, mythmom at least would recognize their names. ) There was none of this hysteria.</p>
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<p>My son received virtually a full ride from his school, and that never crossed my mind when I read it.</p>
<p>Just curious. Are issues of responsibilities outside the classroom or indirectly related to teaching responsibilities addressed in faculty contracts?</p>
<p>Was thinking more about this. There are things that we do or are asked to to that, IMO, falls in the “comes with the territory” category. Now if the request is outrageous, no problem politely declining the unreasonable request. And in the case of a LOR, if a professor really feels they cannot comfortably write a very supportive one, then it is probably best to suggest to the student that they might best ask someone to write one who can best speak to their skills. But we are all busy.That alone should not be reason to say no. If someone is not given sufficient time to write a LOR then it’s reasonable to indicate that they’d have been happy to do so of asked earlier. But if given say, 6-8 weeks advanced notice, surely time can be made to accommodate the students request.</p>
<p>I can’t recall ever declining a request for a letter of recommendation. On the other hand, the number of students for whom I have written in my career is somewhere in the hundreds, and not in the thousands–if the latter were the case, I would really have been unable to do it.</p>
<p>When you say “we are all busy,” how busy do you mean, jym626? I am not as busy now as I have been in some periods of my career. Clearly.</p>
<p>Just to clarify: I still consider myself busy. I work 7 days a week on an ongoing basis and am posting this during a brief break. However, I get about 7 hours of sleep a night these days, instead of the 4.5-5 (for months at a time) that I had during peak years of being busy. In that era CC did not exist. If it had, I would never have been on it.</p>
<p>I think we all quantify our own personal definition of “busy”. There is always a lot to do, whether its work related, personal, social, medical, family related, etc.</p>
<p>When it’s essentially all work, it is a bit different. I can’t speak knowledgeably about the social sciences, but that is life for many young faculty in other fields.</p>
<p>I was advised not to marry before I had tenure, on the grounds that my department had not tenured a married faculty member of either gender in ten years. (I ignored this advice.)</p>
) There was none of this hysteria.</p>