<p>I guess there are advantages for my kids to be first gen college.
Our oldest ( who finished grad school last year), researched, applied to & paid for graduate school on her own.
I wouldn’t have known how to help her even if she had asked for help.
( she did get guidance & support from her friends though)</p>
<p>However it occurs to me that you can tell a lot from a prof by the way they teach. Those who are unorganized or over scheduled are pretty easy to pick out and aren’t good choices for reqs, no matter how engaging their class. A prof who gives detailed feedback on work and who follows through is a better choice for a referral than someone who hands out A’s and agrees to things they can’t finish.</p>
Oh pish. D’s chosen career is not in this professor’s field, D has no intention of ever getting PhD or being involved in academia, and if she attends a different school for her masters, no one at her undergrad will have anything to do with D’s life or career ever again. (And if she attends her current school, of course lips will be zipped about this prof.) How sad that negative feedback about a prof is verboten and poor performance must go forever uncriticized for fear of damaging a student’s future. And then there’s tenure…What a strange place academia is. </p>
<p>In my world “beyotch” serves the same purpose as word like “darn” or “heck”, and is used in common conversation. Never thought of it as offensive, but if someone was offended, I certainly apologize. Won’t happen again.</p>
<p>
Wow, not appreciating the implication that those A’s were undeserved; moreover, D got plenty of feedback on her work for this prof. She’s not psychic, and her flake-meter was apparently not operating up to snuff, so she had no way to predict that this unhappy course of events would occur when the prof was asked–and agreed–to go a bit above and beyond.</p>
<p>I’m a bit amused at one suggestion that anyone applying to grad school have whole slate of backups for recommendations. In my own college career, and in my H’s and kids’, I rarely took more than one course with any particular professor. So assuming that 1) you either have to have taken several courses with a prof or at least one small seminar, in order for that prof to know you well enough to recommend you, 2) you wouldn’t expect to be recommended unless you did exceptionally well in the class(es), and 3) the recommendation should come from someone in field that is somewhat related to the intended course of study in grad school, it’s hard for me to understand where this list of willing recommenders is supposed to come from in the case of a typical student.</p>
<p>My goodness, a visit to Grad Cafe did reveal that there are lots of dilatory profs out there. Shameful, really. I don’t get the mindset that allows for that sort of negligence. It’s just bratty behavior.</p>
<p>By the way, I did want to point out that D also requested recommendations from two current employers (in a field directly relevant to her masters program). They, too, are very busy people (amazingly, it’s not only academics who have busy schedules and many demands on their time), but they nonetheless graciously and promptly submitted their recommendations without any further noodging. Moreover, they aren’t people who are typically asked to do this sort of thing, so I’m sure crafting their letters took them more time than it would take a prof who writes recommendations routinely–and certainly more time than it would take a prof who had the student write the first draft!</p>
cobrat, I just don’t know where you’re coming from with this. Who suggested any entitlement to a recommendation? D asked, prof said yes. D was grateful. Prof is behaving badly. I think we’re all “entitled” to be treated with courtesy and respect so long as we treat others the same way. Don’t you agree?</p>
<p>I just realized that no one has commented on the fact that this prof had my D write her own recommendation. Is this just okay with everyone? Perfectly normal? I thought it was incredibly nervy and quite inappropriate, but then I don’t seem to adequately appreciate those special snowflakes in the ivory tower who are so, so, very, very busy…</p>
<p>I wouldn’t say that writing one’s own recommendation is “perfectly normal,” but it is not unheard of. It is certainly not a good sign with regards to the quality of the recommender. Does your D know any other students who have asked this person for a letter?</p>
<p>No one is saying that this prof hasn’t behaved poorly. But you can’t exactly write that on a note and send it in with the application, can you? Lots of students deal with this issue. If a professor is unresponsive you cannot keep waiting and waiting and not start working on a plan b. Even if another professor won’t give an ideal letter, something is better than nothing. Your D should see what she can do to line up another letter, last minute though it may be.</p>
<p>I am a former academic. I am guessing that the professor had every intention of writing the letter but she is a disorganized person and other demands got the best of her. </p>
<p>I personally think it is very poor form to ask the student to write a draft. It happens more often than you think, unfortunately. I would just rather say no to a student I don’t know well than make that awkward request. Thoughtful letters do take time and it is a thankless job. You either agree or say no to the request.</p>
<p>I do wonder if your daughter should give up on a letter from her, but write this professor a note pointing out how she broke many promises and left her in a bind. Maybe at the very least she won’t do it to others. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I had a letter writer flake out on me once. I think she felt guilty, though I never confronted her about it and it did not affect my future in any way. I am now about to take a job 25 years later where I may work with her from time to time! I wonder if it will be awkward.</p>
<p>The professor should have written the recommendation not because you pay her salary. That does not entitle your daughter to anything above and beyond.</p>
<p>The professor should have written the recommendation for one reason only: she promised she would do so. Shame on her for stringing your daughter along.</p>
<p>Professors in my daughter’s undergrad program were encouraged to mentor the undergrads just as they are expected to mentor their grad students. In fact, my daughter’s mentor received the Mentor of the Year award the year she graduated. He was very proactive for her. He not only wrote letters for her, he called the head of every program who invited her to interview in order to reiterate his enthusiasm for her. She was offered a spot at all of the institutions which flew her in to interview. He and his wife also had her and a couple of his other students over to their house for dinner and served as sounding boards for their “which program should I choose?” debates. His help was invaluable, and the program she ultimately chose is headed by a professor very similar to her mentor. </p>
<p>I will say that my D was very proactive on her own behalf as an undergrad. She made sure to become acquainted with all of her professors by attending every offering the department had, whether it be guest speaker nights, departmental activities, etc. She would have had several backups had the need presented itself. She also spent two years doing research in her mentor’s lab, got to know the grad students in the program, went to seminars in the area and even one or two out of state, etc. She really worked it.</p>
<p>I have had to write letters in support of promotion of people with whom I’ve worked. I am typically provided with a statement or cheat sheet written by the candidate. This is helpful to me in making sure I don’t leave out any accomplishments that might have slipped my mind. Naturally, I add my own opinions and assessments about the nature of those accomplishments–that the work product exceeded my expectations, or that the candidate needed very little supervision, or words to that effect. However, the background information is indeed provided by the candidate. </p>
<p>I would imagine a letter of recommendation of this type begins with something along the lines of “I am writing in support of Daughter J’s application for X. Daughter J was a student in my Y class in 20xx and my Z class in 20xx…” I wouldn’t think it unreasonable to ask that the candidate at least provide this factual background, and, perhaps, such details as the topics of research projects (and perhaps a copy) to serve as a prompt for the recommender’s comments.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s laziness, but a desire to ensure that the letter accomplishes the candidate’s objectives.</p>
<p>" It betrays an attitude not very far removed from those held by those who use that argument to justify mistreating customer service staff or lower-level public service workers."</p>
<p>No, MommaJ’s attitude is NOTHING like that of people who mistreat customer service staff or service workers. You repeat this canard constantly but it’s not true. </p>
<p>Her daughter thought she was dealing with a competent professional who would do things she promised to do. She wasn’t. It’s precisely flightiness like this which leads most people to think that academics aren’t people who couldn’t cut it in the real world.</p>
<p>That’s what I figured might be the case here, especially if the LOR writer doesn’t know the candidate all that well. I would think that information would be very helpful.</p>
<p>Still, the professor here really did a disservice to the OP’s daughter. As someone with an advanced degree, she had to know how important the LOR is, so if she didn’t want to write it, or didn’t have time to write it, she did owe it to the student to make this clear. Or better yet, just write the dang letter.</p>
<p>the prof is a jerk…If you say you are going to do something, you do it…period. Too busy?..give me a break…some people have no idea what busy is.</p>
<p>Well, I suspect she still could go get a backup. Unless this is a very large U, faculty members tend to know each other (including who can be a flake). If this faculty really is a scatterbrain, your d goes the next prof and says, “I am so sorry for the very late notice, but professor X hasn’t been able to get her red finished.” She’ll probably get a knowing nod and a letter. Chances are, this is the committee member who doesn’t get her stuff done on time, the faculty senate member who doesn’t get her motions in, etc.</p>
<p>Now, if you haven’t received the whole story, and there is a reason why the prof is suddenly hesitant to write the letter, you’re in a completely different situation with the backup.</p>
<p>I just finished reading the thread and that was the first thing that caught my eye because I know a few people that needed references for jobs that have run into this recently and it does seem that it is becoming more common. I was shocked when the people involved told me this procedure and I was very nervous for them about it. It didn’t seem right.</p>
<p>But then they said that the requester writes the letter, sends it to the reference person whose name will be on it so the reference can approve it, make changes or deny it, and off it goes. I can see advantages of course as the reference person may not know or understand what the requester needed emphasized for the new position and really does not have the time to sit with the requester to learn about it. The one job was for a technical field with very specific requirements and skills. The reference agreed to supply the written reference and asked the requester to write it. Reference person approved it, it was sent, and the requester got the new job. Perhaps since your D’s grad school major is not in the Prof’s field, the Prof felt your D could better address what should be in a reference letter for that particular program. But once she got the letter, she should have approved it and sent it on or communicated with your D if she had a problem with something.</p>
<p>I agree that the professor stringing your D along was not right at all. Your D should show up at the Prof’s class with the reference printed out, provide a pen and politely ask her if she could just sign it there. And yes, there are professors who are lazy, but then there are others who do work the 90 hours a week someone mentioned. My H just spent his spring break grading papers, tweaking his classes, answering student emails, etc. I think maybe he will take today off. Maybe.</p>
<p>This:
“I agree that the professor stringing your D along was not right at all. Your D should show up at the Prof’s class with the reference printed out, provide a pen and politely ask her if she could just sign it there.”</p>
<p>Awful that it has apparently come down to this but if the goal at this point is to have a signed LOR in hand, this might work.</p>
<p>Perhaps your daughter would be better served by not getting a recommendation from this professor simply because her highest grades came from this professor. This recommendation may not help her get into her desired program.</p>
<p>Grad school recommendations are not like college recommendations. She would be better served by getting a letter from someone who actually teaches in her chosen field who can attest to her work, knowledge and perhaps research in this subject area. Is there a professor in her chosen field that she could get a recommendation from (preferably someone that she has done research with)?</p>
<p>I missed that point re: this prof is not in your D’s chosen field.
Seems odd to me that your D would have chosen this prof in the first place, even given the higher grades in her classes.</p>
<p>When our DS applied to grad school, it was clear, at least in his head, that the academic LOR would be from prof in his major.</p>
<p>I must agree with whomever said, essentially, mom should not be so involved. It is a lesson D needs to learn with some rational unemotional guidance/mentoring from her parents. There is always a way to get to plan B. </p>
<p>Go to plan B. if she does not get accepted anywhere she likes, then next steps. This is life. The sooner DD starts to figure this out on her own the better.</p>