<p>Your D needs to get someone else to write the rec. Whatever potentially good rec that could have come from this prof, is offset by the fact that this person is having trouble doing this, and if she finally writes one, it could hurt your D more than help her. Just drop it. It’s like squeezing water out a stone at this point.</p>
<p>SHe needs write up a list of what she wants in a rec and find someone else to write it and beg to get it out ASAP because the original person just did not send out the rec as promised and the acceptance at this point is imperiled due to the missing rec. It is not lazy to ask for a “cheat sheet” and ANYONE asking for a rec should prepare one for the person to use because it makes it that much easier and lessens the chances that something important is not left out, something that might not come to mind while writing the ref.</p>
<p>But the first prof is a done deal. She is not likely to write a good ref at this point, so drop it. </p>
<p>You can only push so hard on certain things, and your D is beyond that point with this prof. Once all is said and done, she might want to report what happened to the proper authorities at the school so some other poor student isn’t so hamstrung but right now her priority is getting that ref out so she can move on.</p>
<p>MommaJ, I too would be infuriated. I like the suggestion of a previous poster that said she should just show up with a final copy of the letter your D drafted and ask her to sign it. A promise is a promise. It is well accepted practice that if for whatever reason a professor does not want to “write” for a student, then he/she begs off when initially asked. This is highly unprofessional and when all of this is behind your daughter, I would advise her to not hold back her complaints, both to the professor and the institution she attends. Universities want their graduates to succeed and this sort of behavior is unacceptable.</p>
<p>Some posters expressed surprise at the professor asking the student to draft something. While it is unusual for them to ask students to actually draft the letter, I do know most professors ask for sort of a “brag” sheet where the students list their accomplishments and talents. This assists them in writing the best possible letter. This is just such a weird circumstance wondering if the professor might have memory issues that she is struggling with. I found it odd that she asked your daughter to “remind” her by e-mail every few days. That sounds to me like someone who might be struggling with short term memory issues. My mother used to make the same request and she has full blown Alzheimer’s now.</p>
<p>Ill reiterate the first reply, from GladGradDad. Some people are just unreliable. Can your D ask another prof for a rec?
My old boss did the same thing and asked for reminders to him and to his peers who also manage. I said I was uncomfortable telling supervisors to do their jobs. Nothing came of it except my old boss was promoted.
This is a good lesson for your child.</p>
<p>I am so sorry. BTW, when my DD asked profs for recommendations, she put togethor a little package, with a one page summary of what she had done, copies of prior work, etc and envelope. You may think profs remember everyone, but I think it helps to provide information.</p>
<p>I missed that point as well. I don’t know how grad school works for all fields, but in my D’s field, you wouldn’t even consider submitting a LOR from someone outside of the field. </p>
<p>I would advise her to find a former professor who teaches in the same college as the field which she is desiring to study in grad school to write the LOR pronto. I would give him/her the “cheat sheet” the other professor requested to make sure he highlights her strengths and achievements properly. </p>
<p>I’m shocked that the OP’s daughter didn’t have an academic advisor at her university who could have given her some better direction here.</p>
<p>…and stop the “hovering” comments. Every parent-child relationship is different. Some college students keep their parents in the loop with just about everything in their lives and some do not. Some ask and appreciate advice from their parents and some do not. No need to throw the “hovering” comment in every thread discussion.</p>
<p>That troubles me, too. Particularly because I think that Momma J’s daughter may be graduating from the school where mine is now a freshman, and I had the impression that advising/mentoring was one thing they did very well. This gives me pause!</p>
<p>I doubt that the OP would actually speak/act in real life the way she is representing here on this issue (ie confronting the prof herself).
Bet that this is just a wonderful safe place to vent for many, including myself.</p>
<p>I agree that the prof’s behavior was inexcusable (and that MommaJ’s daughter should have come up with a back-up plan a couple of weeks ago, when it became apparent that this prof wasn’t reliable), but all may not be lost.</p>
<p>When I applied to grad school a few years ago, the daughter of one of my professors came down with swine flu right around the deadline. The rec came in a week later, and it didn’t matter one iota. For most online applications, you can complete and submit your part without having all the recs in; that’s a separate process to be completed by the professor. If the recommendation hasn’t been received by a certain point, many programs will inform you that your application is incomplete and give you a few days to supply the missing information.</p>
<p>If I were mommaJ’s daughter, I’d go to another professor and ask for the last minute rec without badmouthing or even naming the other professor - just say that you had another recommendation that fell through at the last minute, and that you are really in a bind. Don’t come prepared with a draft of a letter, which is presumptuous, but do come with a list of relevant achievements, and copies of your work in that professor’s class, if you have them.</p>
<p>Asking a student to write a draft letter is not unusual and shouldn’t be any kind of warning sign IMO. The student should just take it as an opportunity to make sure the prof knows about all of the student’s relevant accomplishments and how they fit the job or grad school program the person is applying for. Certainly, the student is more informed about both than the prof is.</p>
<p>Also, many profs are very busy and if they forget something, students should never take it personally, but rather just politely ask again, or whatever it takes to accomplish the goal. I’m a prof myself, and if I need my colleagues to do a random task (like grade PhD qualifying exams, or some sort of paperwork about their courses) I expect to remind people a couple of times. Sure everyone should just do their job, etc. but it is much better and more productive to just remind people as needed than get mad about it.</p>
<p>^^^^Yes, but the problem in this case is the student has reminded the prof numerous times, to no avail, and apparently the deadline has come and gone.</p>
<p>It sounds like perhaps the student in question was not properly advised on how to navigate the grad school process. Additionally, it sounds as though she is perhaps a bit timid with regards to advocating for herself, and finally, she chose to trust a professor who was not worthy of that trust.</p>
<p>I’m curious what field the OP’s daughter is in. In many programs, an applicant without research experience is at a huge disadvantage in the grad school application process. Often it is the research experience which exposes the students to the various professors in more than a surface manner, which is largely what you get by simply taking a course from one. My D’s research team invited her to participate in writing a paper which was subsequently published. So she had been “published” at the time she applied to the Ph.D programs, a huge bonus for her. The paper participants did not necessarily need her for the paper, but by getting to know her and her work in their lab, they had confidence in her ability to contribute, and probably also just wanted to throw her a bone as a favor. These kinds of experiences can be invaluable if one is trying to get into grad school in a very competitive field.</p>
Unfortunately, these days all recommendations have to be submitted online via a link provided by the school.
Her chosen field is not one she pursued as an undergrad, though she majored in a closely allied field, the one this prof is in–sorry, I can’t be any more specific because I need to protect D’s privacy.
Ah. here we go, the classic CC knee jerk response. D has been keeping me apprised of her progress on her applications and is now very distraught over what has occurred. We’re close. We talk about important stuff. I’m a college and professional school graduate who in her career has had supervisory responsibilities over staff, hired and fired personnel, and read and wrote recommendations. She thinks my input might be beneficial. And I ache when things don’t go well for her. It’s not hovering. It’s being a loving parent who offers advice when asked. Good grief.</p>
<p>With respect to research experience, this is not something my D was involved in. Her relationship to profs was strictly through being in their classes. Keep in mind she is going for a 2 year masters program leading to a professional certification. The program does not involve research. The typical path to a PhD is not relevant to her situation.</p>
<p>Many thanks to all for your input. Many (not all) comments have been insightful and useful. They are much appreciated. And to those of you who had perfect children who perfectly plotted and planned their paths to grad school from the first day of freshman year (or maybe from the first day of kindergarten), had incredible insight into the behavior of their professors, and never needed so much as a consoling word from you–congratulations!</p>
<p>Doesn’t sound like OP is hovering at all. If she were the hovering type, she probably would have called the prof herself after the first “reminder” went without action.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, flakiness isn’t limited to academics and IME…it isn’t endemic among academics. </p>
<p>In fact, other than creative arts professions like music, I’ve personally observed and experienced several examples of this behavior among supervisors/senior management in several private sector businesses. </p>
<p>At a medium sized financial company, this sort of flakiness was a key factor in why my team ended up working late/having to come in on weekends every friday for 2 straight months…and not knowing about it until the last minute…4-4:30 pm of that very friday. It was almost always issues which could have been addressed earlier in the workweek if the managers had been more proactive and notified us earlier or because they procrastinated on getting their part finished when they had plenty of lead time. </p>
<p>Also, several lawyers I’ve worked with epitomized flakiness. Only difference was they in biglaw, they were well-covered by junior partners and senior associates who ended up getting extra responsibilities on their already burgeoning plates. </p>
<p>However, it is a problem which is more apparent with small law firms where there isn’t a large staff for the partner/sole practitioner to hide behind. Moreover, it isn’t helped when they end up being victims of a popular practice among biglaw/bigger firms of dumping tons of deposition materials in a disordered mass so the opposing party’s attorneys will need to spend already stretched time and staffing resources to organize and examine the files.</p>
<p>It’s not about having/being perfect children. Rather, it’s more an understanding that one needs to prepare backup plans or in this case, recommendations because Murphy law applies to teacher/Professor recommendations…as they do in all other areas of our lives.<br>
I find this life lesson tends to be learned much earlier by those from the lower SES and/or those who attended extremely bureaucratic impersonal public schools or even some large private colleges* which have the same issues.</p>
<p>That and teacher/Professor recommendations need to be done by Professors who are actively enthusiastic and willing/able to follow through. </p>
<p>If either or both are missing**, a student is better off running quickly to find another recommender ASAP as a pro-forma tepid recommendation has the same effect as a negative one. </p>
<p>I brought up the entitlement issue for two reasons:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>OP’s use of the phrase “I pay her salary” does tend to give that vibe.</p></li>
<li><p>Teachers/Professor recommendations are completely at the discretion of them and is a form of going above and beyond their standard professional duties as a favor for the most deserving students as said teacher/Prof sees them. This also includes a reserved right to revoke the initial agreed upon recommendation if upon reassessment, the Prof feels he/she can’t write a good recommendation in good conscience for whatever reason. </p></li>
</ol>
<ul>
<li>I.e. NYU</li>
</ul>
<p>**Being hesitant…including asking for reminders or “forgetting” is one red flag.</p>
<p>I don’t think the OP is hovering at all. However, she does seem to resent any suggestion that her D could have had some sort of backup plan without having
</p>
<p>Seriously? This is your attitude toward students who are a little more prepared?</p>
<p>Give me a break. When I asked profs for recs, I never had a backup plan. I asked, they did them, end of story. At what point in the process was the D negligent for not having a backup plan, since the prof SAID SHE WOULD DO IT REPEATEDLY.</p>