<p>I've got to sign off, but I will make a suggestion. You need to look at some of the books to try to identify schools. Spend some time thinking about what type of environment you would most like and what programs you might be most interested in. When you've got a better idea then folks around here might be able to give you more insight into other similar schools, etc.</p>
<p>Godfather, I sent you a Private Message about why your post was deleted. In my opinion, it violated the Courtesy guidelines of the Terms of Service. Please keep your comments to the matter under discussion, rather than any reactions you might have to any posters. </p>
<p>Andi has been very generous in sharing her son's story, and gracious in responding to other posters. This thread is of great value. Let's keep it on a high plane. </p>
<p>Regarding other advice you may want for your own list, you may start a new thread, or it seems you already have one, requesting such advice. Let's keep posts on this thread to the original topic. </p>
<p>Thanks for your cooperation,
Mod JEM</p>
<p>Wow not much research before comment, I already have a thread, I was telling people to give me advice there rather than here.</p>
<p>Also, my apologies for disparaging Andi, though that's not what I meant by my comments but everyone seems to have taken it that way. Sorry.</p>
<p>mommamia: Just for the record, there were quite a few parents in my district who offered their advice, and they were not "using aggressive tactics". They are just very well-connected, well-educated professional people who are part of a very close-knit community where everyone knows everyone else, etc. and who actually went through this whole process and were able to reach the desired outcome. We're talking major over-achievers (parents) in their own right. I'm only speaking about what goes on in my district, not a "similar" district. Enough said.</p>
<p>Every week someone wins Lotto and someone elses house burns down. You should try for the former, prepare for the latter. To say that it cant happen, at either end of the spectrum, is on one side excessive pessimism and on the other foolish arrogance. </p>
<p>nyumom, those parents who were blessed with good fortune should have added an important corollary to "this is what you need to do..." That is, but in the end, you may not be successful, so have a back-up."</p>
<p>Of course the parents and students should try their best to turn a negative situation around. Of course they should be aggressive, be optimistic, be positive and inventive and persistent, but they should not allow themselves to become so arrogant that they believe that they are the ones working the admissions strings. </p>
<p>No parents (except maybe the very rich and very famous) are in that position. Sheer will power and all the knowledge and education in the world will not necessarily put humpty dumpty back together again once he's broken. It is hubris to believe that if youre clever enough and aggressive enough that you will always succeed.</p>
<p>Also, getting in in the first place requires a very different set of skills -- plus luck -- than getting in after being rejected (or put on an open-ended waitlist). Dont confuse the two. The first is difficult but in many cases doable. The second is very rarely successful. </p>
<p>Ive lived in Manhattan and my son was born there. He was on that educational treadmill at one time and I understand it well. I believe that a LOT can be controlled -- even manipulated if you will -- in college admissions. My son, for one, was accepted by a highly selective college when a lot of people told us he didnt have a chance. He followed the advice of the optimists (including his dear old mom) who told him this is what you need to do. And we are grateful for it, but had it not worked out he was ready with a solid Plan B.</p>
<p>However, this is very different from turning a rejection into an acceptance. Getting off a waitlist is somewhat easier, as long as the college decides it is. If the college doesnt want or need or have room for the student, s/he isnt going to get off that waitlist no matter what the parents do. Again, it is arrogance to imply that it could have worked out differently.</p>
<p>Momrath, you are right about those waiting lists being tough. First of all hundreds of qualifed super wonderful kids are waitlisted. Secondly, some schools overenrolled...Duke this year and Wm and Mary last year off of our list for instance. Bad news for waitlisted kids.<br>
Godfather: I think it is great you offered an apology. This is not really a casual IM sort of board..people here tend to stick around long term so manners are important. Please take the time to read Andi's threads from last spring from beginning to end. When you have raised a young person with an advanced artistic talent, a love of learning, good references, good essays and SAT scores that earn National Merit status and find that to your horror your college app season was a misfire, you will understand why the parental reaction is going to be very sympathetic. Andison in fact looks a lot like all of our kids, so we have a clue what he experienced at his high school in buzzing April, at graduation, and during summer parties and departures etc. The heart of the matter has zero to do with bragging or modesty, so you missed the point. It is just about steering bright kids to open doors that are realistic possibilities. In the eyes of parent readers, the stats Andi posted are just data that informed Andison's parents to feel he could reasonably apply to Ivys and Reaches. Wait till the spring...the students themselves post their test scores, their SATIIs, their APs etc and compile a list of hopefuls at each favored college site albeit they use screen names. They literally cheer for each other and comfort each other through this gauntlet called admissions. If you go back to CC Classic, you can read old threads. December, March and April are pretty intense.<br>
Many CC readers have strong stats, and parents and kids are trying to sort out the hype and mixed advice at home and school and come up with a successful application list. It is more an art than a science. In my town a 1550 is rare, and we produce maybe one or two National Merit scholars a year from four high schools. Coming out of Boston is another universe, especially with East Coast schools looking for geographical diversity. </p>
<p>Being exceptionally polite on these boards is going to get you support and advice in what can be a trying year. good for you for apologizing and better yet, hope the boards are a good sounding board for you and that you have an outcome that is fulfilling and rewarding in the end.</p>
<p>Last year it was particularly difficult to to get in to a school off a wait list. </p>
<p>Link to WSJ Article Published in Post Gazette June 16, 2005
<a href="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05167/522674.stm%5B/url%5D">http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05167/522674.stm</a></p>
<p>All the more reason to have good match/safety schools selected.</p>
<p>Regarding the advice given by nyumom: I think there are two separate issues here that need to be clarified. First is whether you think that the approach she outlined is likely to have a positive outcome. The second is whether you think it portrays an attitude that appeals to you or is a healthy one for children to be exposed to.
I think its irrelevant what other posters think of those living in nyumom's community...that really isn't going to be helpful to andison or anyone in a similar circumstance. The only things that matters are : determining if this approach (direct parental intervention) is ever useful in such circumstances and whether andi or any parent would be comfortable undertaking this. It's easy to say that one would never intervene because it's not playing by the rules, etc. However, if one knew that it would work, and one experienced the ghastly outcome of andison, one might feel differently. It's only natural for someone in andison's shoes to perhaps feel that the "rules" are unfair. So, while I am not personally advocating direct parental intervention, and I think that nyumom's original post came off kind of critical and too strong, it was clear that she was appalled by the outcome someone as accomplished as andison suffered and felt that "pulling out the stops" was warranted. Let me add that I have no personal experience with this kind of thing, but I think its helpful to consider all people's experiences and ideas and take them in the spirit in which they are offered.</p>
<p>Thank you Andi for giving this very much needed perspective to all the current (and future) college applicants. I have to put in my 2 cents...I don't think anything went "wrong"....it's just that nothing went "right". When a student applies to schools that accept under 20% of their applicants, that means that they are rejecting 80% (or more) of their applicants. It's not a stretch to see that in that 80% there are some very well qualified students. We had a friend whose child applied to 3 Ivies and a safety. He got rejected outright at all three Ivies (despite being Val, having a perfect GPA which included college dual enrolled courses his jr and sr year in hs, great SAT 2 scores...his "short straw" in my opinion was his verbal SAT which was 620....math was 800, and he had outstanding EC's and community service....a very very great kid). The safety school (OOS public) didn't offer a cent of merit aid. The family was counting on the 100% of need being met by those Ivies. It was awful for them. He didn't LOVE his safety, but he did go there and in the end it turned out to be very good for him. BUT the end of his senior year was very depressing and disappointing for him. Throughout this process, we felt that his GC had misadvised him seriously...basically TOLD him he had a chance at at least one of those Ivies (he visited multiple times at the two he liked the best, and once at the third). The bottom line for this student is that with his excellent credentials, he would have been a merit shoe in at MANY fine LAC's offering his major (Lehigh, Villanova, Hamilton, Lafayette all would have likely given him a very very good aid package). He was not advised to apply to anything BETWEEN his safety and those Ivies (which quite frankly should be viewed as a reach by all applicants unless their family has donated significant money for a major capital improvement campaign). Andi is right...create a balanced list. Sure, put those reaches in there if you want to, but also have some good choices that you would love to attend regardless. AND I firmly believe that EVERY applicant should apply to one rolling admissions school. As DS said when he got his first acceptance in November (yes...a safety)..."At least I know I'm going somewhere." Kuddos to Andi and her family for making this gap year for Andison such a diverse and rewarding one for him. I, for one, am glad he's in DD's class of prospective 2006 freshman!!</p>
<p>I have been reading threads on CC here and there, and read this thread all the way through.</p>
<p>Just want to say -- I am so impressed with the discourse here. So many CC people are knowledgeable, articulate, and give much of their precious time to tell their experiences, give advice and help others!! Thank you all so much.</p>
<p>Andi, I can imagine how you must have felt last spring, and how you would have done anything to have taken the pain away from your son. Andison's non-admits were those colleges losses!</p>
<p>We are going through this excruciating process now. One difficulty is that we are Americans overseas, and US college admission is underemphasized at this school. We don't get good information (and no SAT prep or anything), and visiting colleges that my son 'might' be interested in is next to impossible. My S is avidly interested in one college in particular, but the GC at our school met an admissions rep from that college last summer and told him that my son has Asperger's Autism! My son would have, of course, disclosed that somewhere on his apps, but it should have been his choice how and where to disclose it. So I'm commiserating with you, HIMom and others. I am very proud of S, and how he has worked to overcome his disability (especially considering the chaos of his international education). But it's a subject that should be handled very carefully, I'm sure.</p>
<p>Andi, I was thinking about your question re: andison's writing his non-admittance experiences in an 'overcoming adversity' essay. Clearly, I am not an expert, but I think that it could work -- if he treats it on a case-by-case basis. For instance, instead of saying "I was rejected by all the colleges to which I applied", he would write to Yale (for example) "I was not ready to give up on Yale, and since I'm sure Yale and I have a great future together, here I am again." ...or something similar (but of course much better written). Then he could go on in the essay to describe how he overcame his disappointment (and to be humorous, he worries if Yale has overcome 'it's' disappointment about not having him this year), and then talk about all the great stuff he's doing.</p>
<p>What do all of you more-experienced parents think of that idea?</p>
<p>"which I applied", he would write to Yale (for example) "I was not ready to give up on Yale, and since I'm sure Yale and I have a great future together, here I am again." ...or something similar (but of course much better written). Then he could go on in the essay to describe how he overcame his disappointment (and to be humorous, he worries if Yale has overcome 'it's' disappointment about not having him this year), and then talk about all the great stuff he's doing."</p>
<p>I think it would be a mistake to highlight that a college rejected him before. Cognitive dissonance means that even though adcoms at top colleges know that they reject many applicants who are equally qualifieid as the accepted ones, adcoms still probably end up telling themselves that through their hard work, they have selected the best possible class.</p>
<p>Consequently, highlighting that one has been a reject is not likely to make adcoms that interested.</p>
<p>I think it would be far better to emphasize the gap year activities, and to cast a wider net when it comes to college applications.</p>
<p>Last year, there was a student who reapplied to Harvard after being rejected the year before. The student truly seemed to be outstanding, and desperately wanted to go to Harvard. The first year, the student applied EA and then was rejected. The second year, the same thing happened. The student ended up going to Stanford, where, I think the student had never been rejected.</p>
<p>Thumper brings up a good point that others have side-referenced on other threads, but is too often generally neglected: the importance of Match schools. It is difficult to determine what is truly (currently) a match for a particular student. And in the case of many students, their reach will end up being their match. It would just be better if this were paid more attention to by GC's; & in the case that thumper just references, clearly the GC blew it.</p>
<p>In my D's original college list, before her first EA acceptance, her 3 categories were evenly divided among reach/match/safety. It turned out that probably her matches were safeties, but we did not know that at the time. It made us feel more comfortable to play it on the conservative side.</p>
<p>Annudduh Mom (love your screen name), I've weighed in on your question, previously on this thread. I think it's a bad idea. But more importantly, for her son I think it's unnecessary. He has plenty of winning attributes; no need to focus on reactions to "losing." What has he learned so far about his gap year? What does he anticipate learning? How has he come to identify even more with his music, with his contributions to society regarding his music, etc.? Also, "losing" in college admissions is not really a special or protected category, is it? I mean, it's not like a disability or something. It's a very, very common experience. I think one risks making oneself look artificially "special" by focusing on it. J.m.o.</p>
<p>Just a follow-up: I do think that it's o.k. to reference the Senior Yr. in terms of the difficulty of achieving the same perspective on oneself & one's goals (given the craziness of Sr. yr. demands), that one can have during a gap yr. But I would go no further than that. Now that he has this perspective, he sees where he belongs academically, artistically, & personally. To dwell on an admissions setback as an Overcoming Adversity theme risks compromising the very quality of maturity that it seems to me you want to convey as his edge over current graduating seniors. A person with a balanced self-image relative to his or her peers, does not view admissions setbacks as an experience which sets him or her apart from others. So please don't sabotage yourself in that regard. That's all.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the thoughts re the rejection/essay question. You've all articulated the issue so well. epiphany I think you have really gotten to the heart of it.</p>
<p>just want to second the thanks to Godfather for the apology. I think that posting the stats here is just an easier way to define who a student is, since no one here knows him and I can't very well write his bio on CC. In the real world I don't run around telling all my friends what he marks are ;)</p>
<p>dudedad I wanted to address your comment on the list of schools last spring that still had places, why we didn't use it and to put it into perspective regarding the theme of this thread- building a balanced list.
I wouldn't want anyone reading this to think that - oh, if I don't have a safety I can always find a school on that list next May. Try to consider the frame of mind someone, such as andison and what was taking place spring of senior year. First- HUGE feelings of disappointment, then the time involved in pursuing wait lists, at the same time a lot of stuff going on- senior year parties and social life, graduation etc. On top of that, andison had to take final exams and AP tests. More than any other kids, he still had to do well on the exams and his 4th qtr grades because they were still going to count for him as far as reapplying. There was not the option of slacking off even the slightest bit. So, to start looking at a new list, going to visit, filling out an application- it just wasn't going to happen. No time and definitely no interest on his part. He/we needed a break. There's also the risk of just jumping at the chance to go to a school that you haven't put enough thought into and being miserable all year. It just isn't worth it IMO.
So to answer your question, that's why we didn't use the list. And hopefully someone wouldn't think that it's there to use in place of a safety because after a series of bad outcomes they might not be in any frame of mind to start looking all over again either.</p>
<p>I'm sure there are certain circumstances where that list would be a life saver, particularly if someone saw a school he had previously considered and was happy to go back there. </p>
<p>andi</p>
<p>Andi--</p>
<p>Thanks for addressing my posts regarding the "late decision" NACAC. Yes, the May 1 list is not for everyone, I agree, but it is out there as an available resource.<br>
I do believe there are options for everyone if they have time/energy to pursue them. Some of the posts on the Tulane and Hurricane Emergency show that schools were available, and students and their parents effected by Katrina basically made overnight decisions to pursue other schools, gap year, etc.
Best to you/Andison in the next application cycle.</p>
<p>I agree with AnudduhMom. Andison's non-admits were those colleges losses!</p>
<p>Since I believe that Andison does belong in an Ivy or top tier school, I have a question.</p>
<p>Does admissions know when they read an application whether or not this is the second time the student is applying? If they do know, then I think that Andison should address the issue and describe how much he has grown in his gap year. </p>
<p>If they don't, then its a toss up.</p>
<p>My personal opinion is that he should address the issue. I have no clue why Andison was not accepted in every school he applied to, let alone rejected. He's a fine student, and a fine person. I think the way he is handling he experience shows a great deal of maturity. I think that attending classes and doing well at MIT is a great boon to his application. Why hide it?</p>
<p>Andi, I can't say that I feel either your pain or that of your son. No one can really walk in another person's shoes. But my heart goes out to you. I know how dissapointing it can be for a student to get rejected from his first choice school, even if he does have other schools to fall back on. How much more pain must your son feel. But I'll say it again, he's a fine student and a fine boy, he's rising to the occasion and handling his dissapointment with great maturity, and he will go far in life. He will be a gift at any school school.</p>
<p>Great advice from the OP. A few years ago I knew student with a 1600 SAT. She was a great, well adjusted kid; in fact, when she was a sophomore, she won the class award as the student whose personal conduct and academic achievement best exemplified the values of the school (and we're talking a high-powered prep school here, where the average SAT score is around 1400). Anyway, she was rejected from every top-tier school to which she applied, leaving her one safety as her only option for college. It can happen--and it does.</p>
<p>oh wow ... that is so upsetting. thanks for your post ... i'm going to have to warn my friends not to spend too much time on their dream schools.</p>
<p>im applying to dream schools and matches... no safeties... my "safety" is community college, there are some good ones that make it pretty easy to transfer to ucla or something. top of the CC list: Santa Barbara City College... yeeeaahh!!!!</p>
<p>taffy - just a suggestion -- keep the community college as your only safety only if you will truly be happy there if that is where you end up. even if you will be able to transfer, will you be satisfied during the time you would spend there? </p>
<p>community college can be a great route for some people -- would you really feel that it was one for you if you had to live with your safety?</p>