<p>S2 is in an honors program at a flagship state university and S1 is at one of the most selective LACs in the country. S2 gets to meet and interact with a much more diverse group of people (even in his honors dorm) and is having a great experience. At the same time, being in the Honors College allows him to avoid a lot of the administrative crap that goes with a large university. There is no apparent sense of superiority among the kids in his dorm (although S1 reports that other students react differently when told where he lives).</p>
<p>Most honors programs don’t function as all-or-nothing deals, so your son could probably take advantage of the perks that appeal to him and leave the others.</p>
<p>hmm … the plane analogy is a pretty good one … I think the question a student should ask themselves is do they want to attend a school that splits it’s students into first class and coach subsets. To me the honors programs seem a bit like Animal Farm … all our students are equal but some are more equal than others. (BTW - to me honors colleges at large public research universities do not seem as animal farmish as they do at smaller schools)</p>
<p>Hm. I don’t know- If I had ended up going to ASU I would’ve been in Barrett. The whole point, the whole attraction, is to get a lot of perks for being smart. It’s probably a bit elitist, but speaking as an Arizonan who’s been through the AZ honors system since second grade, most of us have been “segregated” for a long time. That doesn’t mean the non-honors kids don’t talk to us, or whatnot, but I’ve been in classes with some of the same kids since second grade, or Junior high. The honors/AP crowd typically runs stuco, are the vals and sals, and elects the teacher speakers for graduation- We collectively voted this year (as we do every year) because all the AP kids are in almost all the AP classes. After freshman year, we had (almost) all the same English and History teachers. There’s one AP gov’t teacher, one AP Lang, two AP lit, one AP physics, one AP calc, one AP bio, one AP World History, etc, etc, etc. So we virtually have the same teachers.</p>
<p>It’s a combination of elitism, and a pack wanting to stick together with like minds, honestly. This year, I took two regulars English classes (Shakespeare & Philosophy) in addition to AP Literature. The teachers were nice, but the students were learning things I had learned before I started High School. I enjoyed the material, but the grading was laxed to a standard that was not as high as I was used to- it didn’t challenge me. A perfect sort of “elective” senior year, I suppose, but I would not want all my classes to be like that. I did not take regular comp (Didn’t need to) but I oversaw my friends assignments for the class, and was pained to see they were just learning about rhetoric and heavy-editing their senior year. And that class was supposed to prepare them for college! Only a semester’s worth, mind. The Honors/AP set had been doing that since at LEAST freshman year. The discrepancies are stunning- but then, the regulars kids complain that their work is “very hard” all the time. </p>
<p>I don’t think it’s wrong to challenge the students who can handle the extra work, or have been working at a much higher level AND reward them for it. I would go for it. If your son/daughter gets accepted to yale, would you really worry that they’ll be treated better for having a yale degree?</p>
<p>(slight o/t: of course, it’s a lucky thing barrett’s food is different. Manzy has TERRIBLE food. Blech.)</p>
<p>I don’t begrudge the woman in first class when I’m in coach. It’s there for me if I want to pay the price. Most of the students in the honors college paid for a first class ticket through hard work and determination. Without them in our public universities the whole university system of the country would suffer. Have you read about what Duke is adding in the way of new dorms so as not to be outdone by the iveys? Public university’s have got to be competitive or it is bad for the states and research. Another thing, Honors colleges allow students that can’t afford iveys some of the same perks that their peers enjoy. I see honors colleges as a win/win for schools, students and states. I have no problem with honors colleges rewarding bright students perks to keep my flagship school one of the best in the country, especially since 85 % of them have to come from within the state. We don’t want our brightest going oos to college and not returning.</p>
<p>Since Honors Colleges require more rigorous courses, they appeal to those students who actually want to work hard(er) in college. If a student finds that appealing, they get to meet all like-minded students. Frankly, a lot of colleges are filled with students who have varying motivation. It seems a little like joining a club, where you’ll be with kids who have similar interests/values. The fact that the University benefits from these most academically gifted kids makes it win-win.</p>
<p>My S is in an Honors Program and frankly, his non-H friends (many!) do not envy him (or his workload) in the least. The top professors, small classrooms, and great LAC-style discussions with classmates are a perfect fit for S, however.</p>
<p>thecheckbook, what a great summary. I agree completely. State schools (with only a few exceptions) are not going to compete for most of the super academic students without offering them perks of various kinds. State schools will not increase their academic profile without such students. Sometimes these things are programatic with trips to museums, etc. I don’t really see the harm in it.</p>
<p>We looked at the honors program as a way to make the big flagship smaller and less bureaucratic. American has clearly been trying to get top-notch students and build its reputation – but what I would wonder is why they are pushing the honors program so hard.</p>
<p>ASU has a great honors college complex, and the dorms and food are quite a bit better than found elsewhere on campus – but they also charge more for those dorms and the Barrett meal plan. Unlike a lot of colleges, ASU has a wide, wide variety of dorms, and the charges vary rather significantly based on the perceived quality of the dorm and the associated dining hall. And, if space is available, non-Barrett’s students can choose to live in Barrett dorms, and quite a few do. Interestingly it seems that most of the freshmen this year are choosing to come back and live in the Barrett complex again next year, whereas before the new complex was built there was a real push by students to move off campus as soon as possible. They even had some juniors and seniors who had been living off campus choose to move back on campus. I don’t have a problem with Barrett’s dorms being nicer and higher cost, just as I don’t have a problem with the Memorial Union offering food court options that aren’t covered by the meal plans. You choose what you want to pay for.</p>
<p>With respect to the general question of honors colleges, I see five key advantages: 1. A liberal arts college experience within what is otherwise a huge campus, with the opportunity to work more closely with honors college faculty and yet still have the incredible breadth of courses offered at a large university; 2. An opportunity to more easily be aware of many different opportunities – lectures, recitals, volunteer efforts, scholarships, national scholarships, and honors college support for each of these; 3. Priority enrollment; 4. The opportunity to interact closely with a significant group of high achieving peers; and 5. Generous scholarships that make the school much more affordable to out-of-state students with strong records, and possibly even free for highly qualified in-state students – making it a real magnet for bright but not necessarily affluent students.</p>
<p>Many of the kids at the honors college could have gone (and were admitted) to selective and very selective LACs, or were out of state admits to schools like Michigan and Cal. I don’t see how having them at the honors college degrades the college experience for other students in any way. You get in on merit, not money, and transfer students are welcomed.</p>
<p>S was invited to join an Honors program at a university that we feel uses it as a “hook” to grab the higher qualified students that might otherwise select a more notable school. Spoke with a panel of honor students at another west coast Jesuit school and this topic of “elitism” was brought up by the parent audience. The students were surprised at the concept and didn’t feel they were looked at any differently by the rest of the student body.</p>
<p>The best thing about D’s honors college is the small-school-within-the-large-school structure. Also, the level of academic rigor is very different. She also takes classes in the general university and she says the difference in motivation and focus of the students can be like night and day. But this is a large state flagship. Maybe at a private univ. like American it wouldn’t be that way.</p>
<p>The workload is also intense. She happens to like that, but there are always students who start in the honors program who bail out because they’re not enthusiastic about the crazy workload and hard grading.</p>
<p>Like an earlier poster, I have a kid in a tip top LAC (Amherst) and one in the honors college of the state flagship. I am gratified to see the one in the honors college is getting every bit as rigorous an education as the one in the highly selective LAC. In some ways it’s even a better total college experience, in my opinion. The irony is, that of course there’s no honors program at the top LACs (they’re all “honors” students) so there is no two-tier education system. On the other hand, the monoculture of elite high-achievers at the top LACs is far less egalitarian than the experience of an honors student at a large public univ.</p>