Thoughts on USC?

Parents Forum
61

<p>
[Quote]
Out of State admission for UCLA 2008 is 28%. Much better than in-state which is 22%. So it's not harder for OOS but actually easier.

[/Quote]
</p>

<p>This is completely false, so please don't spread that rumor! UCLA admits more OOS students because their OOS yield is lower--those who are admitted from outside CA are also likely candidates for admission to Ivys, Stanford, etc. Plus, OOS tuition is so great that many choose not to attend for financial reasons. This is why if you look at the demographics, UCLA is only ~10% OOS students. Therefore, they admit more because less are likely to attend, compared with a higher yield for in-state students.</p>

<p>The OOS field is much, much more self-selecting. This is why, though they admit 28% OOS, the average SATs are significantly higher (I was told over 120 points higher by one admissions source).</p>

<p>
[Quote]
You must not have read some of the stats posted for OOS in the UCLA forum. That caused me to do research on the admit rate.

[/Quote]
Ahh you're basing your argument off of a small pool of CCers...that's where it goes astray! Did you see the OOSer who was admitted to Stanford and Princeton but not UCLA too, then?</p>

<p>Even on the UCLA website, it states: "admissions preference goes to in-state California students."</p>

62

<p>I read somewhere that UCs are limited by law to something like 6% or 10% OOS student pool. Unfortunately I cannot find the link right now, so it may have just been a rumor that someone was perpetuating (I hope I am not doing the same :D)</p>

<p>Since this thread seems to be drifting towards a "X is better than Y" theme, let me state that there are plenty of examples of students being admitted to USC but not UCLA and vice versa. This supports the notion that the historical gap between the two schools is closing fast. Those who believe that UCLA (tied for #25) is so much better than USC (alone #27) must also believe that Georgetown (alone at #23) is far superior to UCLA.</p>

63

<p>vc08, I just go by the statistics, no speculation. There are high stats in-state students(2400/4.0uw) who apply to UCLA/UCB but had not intention of attention. Back to OP's thread.</p>

<p>Jolynne, USC gives excellent financial aid if you qualify. I was referring to merit aid in my post.</p>

64

<p>Thanks again for all the info. Conclusion---definitely a long shot for son, but it's apparently great in comp sci (as other comp sci CC dad told me) so maybe that will be his 'big reach' if he wants.</p>

<p>Thanks for the clarification on aid, Columbia Student. Not sure what we'll qualify for (income probably too high to get much) but we'll see how it shakes out.</p>

65

<p>USC</a> Financial Aid - Grants & Scholarships - Undergraduate - Freshmen Only Scholarships</p>

<p>Are the scholarships renewable? I don't see that in the above link.</p>

66

<p>
[quote]
Renewing your USC Competitive Scholarship
Most USC Competitive Scholarships are renewable for each year of the undergraduate degree program, up to 6 additional semesters (8 additional semesters for students in the 5-year Bachelor of Architecture program). The following criteria must be met in order for the USC Competitive Scholarship to be renewed each year:
•** You must maintain a cumulative USC grade point average of at least 3.0. **
If your cumulative grade point average drops below 3.0, you will be placed on scholarship probation for a maximum of two semesters. During that period you must bring your cumulative USC GPA to 3.0 or you will lose your scholarship. Grades earned at other colleges and universities will not be included in the calculation of the USC GPA. You are only allowed one probationary period for GPA or unit requirements. There is no probationary period for the Trojan Scholarship.
You must complete at least 32 units toward your undergraduate degree during the academic year (not including summer or audited courses). An exception to this rule is made for students whose required curriculum requires them to take a different course load. For example, freshmen engineers often enroll for a required total of only 31 units the first year.
If you complete fewer than 32 units in one academic year, you will be placed on scholarship probation for a maximum of 2 semesters, during which you must complete at least 16 units per semester, or you will lose your scholarship. You are only allowed one probationary period for GPA or unit requirements. There is no probationary period for the Trojan Scholarship.
•** You must uphold USC’s conduct and academic integrity standards**.
If you are found responsible, through Student Judicial Affairs and Community Standards, for a serious academic or non-academic conduct violation, resulting in your suspension or expulsion from the University, this will automatically result in a revocation of your competitive scholarship award.

[/quote]
10 characters</p>

<p><a href="http://www.usc.edu/student-affairs/arp//Documents/2007_2008_Policy.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usc.edu/student-affairs/arp//Documents/2007_2008_Policy.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

67

<p>If he's going into engineering, don't shell out huge money for a "top ranked program"...your son will not see a return on his investment vs. "lesser", unranked schools.</p>

<p>Undergraduate engineering specialties:
Computer Engineering
(At schools whose highest degree is a doctorate)
1 Massachusetts Inst. of Technology<br>
2 Carnegie Mellon University (PA)
2 Stanford University (CA)
4 University of California–Berkeley *
5 U. of Illinois–Urbana-Champaign *
6 Georgia Institute of Technology *
7 University of Michigan–Ann Arbor *
8 Cornell University (NY)
8 University of Texas–Austin *
10 California Institute of Technology<br>
11 Purdue Univ.–West Lafayette (IN)*
12 University of Washington *
13 Princeton University (NJ)
14 Univ. of Wisconsin–Madison *
15 Univ. of California–Los Angeles *
16 Northwestern University (IL)
16 Rice University (TX)
18 Univ. of California–San Diego *
18 Univ. of Southern California<br>
20 Univ. of Maryland–College Park *</p>

68

<p>Thanks, Columbia & coolweather. Info is always good.</p>

<p>UCBChem--son actually wants to go into computer science (not engineering -- he's done summer engineering camps & is adament that's a no-go). I know some schools offer comp sci w/in the engineering dept; most don't seem to.</p>

<p>Would your statement re: no substantive return on investment apply to non-engineering comp sci, do you think? Thanks!</p>

69

<p>^ Yes, computer science opportunities and pay are similar to engineering.
The jobs and pay are very market driven...I just don't see huge premiums paid to graduates from top programs.</p>

<p>However, top programs will be more widely recruited...but graduating from a cheaper, less-renowned program will not make a huge difference in terms of pay and opportunity...your son will just have to do more of the job search leg work.</p>

70

<p>Interesting.</p>

<p>What really got me nervous was at a party recently, I talked to a guy whose brother just graduated w/a degree in comp sci from a small, not-well-known NJ school (Rowan--did 2 yrs community coll first). He said his bro bagged groceries at the local supermarket for a year after graduating before he found his first ($40k) job at a defense dept subcontractor.</p>

<p>I'm willing to go into debt & work full time for son to avoid that option after graduation (not to minimize the efforts of the young man involved).</p>

71

<p>Please check out the 4-year graduation of these schools, ranking is not the only thing when selecting a college.</p>

72

<p>Do you mean the rate of graduation (% of kids enrolled for all 4 years who make it through)? I never thought of that...just figured if kids were in a decent college, they'd mainly continue (assumed 'drop out rates' were more pertinent to HSs). Maybe that's still a factor in college?</p>

73

<p>I got this from Carolyn's blog.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Will You Graduate in Four Years?
Right now, you're probably more focused on getting in to college. But, four years from now, getting out is what will matter. When it comes to your chances of graduating in four years, not all colleges are created equal.</p>

<p>An excellent online resource, College Results, is the best way to track down the graduation rates for the colleges and universities on your list. Plug in the name of a college or university and the site, which is run by a non-profit organization, tells you not only what the graduation rate is, but how the school compares to up to 15 schools that have similar characteristics. One caveat if you're going to do a search: the system automatically defaults to 6-year graduation rates. If you want to see 4-year graduation rates, make sure to set your search correctly.</p>

<p>You can also do broader searchers, based not on a specific college or university, but on general characteristics. I've just completed a series of these broader searches and will be showing the results over the next few days. Today: Top 4-year graduation rates at private colleges and universities and public universities. Tommorrow, I'll look at various other factors, such as size, SAT scores, and transfer rates.</p>

<p>Top 4-Year Graduation Rates at Private Colleges and Universities</p>

<ol>
<li>Williams College (percent graduating in 4 years: 91.7%)</li>
<li>Princeton University(91.5)</li>
<li>Georgetown and Yale tied (both 89.5)</li>
<li>Amherst College (88.9)</li>
<li>Davidson College (88.7)</li>
<li>Haverford College (88.6)</li>
<li>Duke (88)</li>
<li>College of Holy Cross and Harvard tied (both 87.5)</li>
<li>Boston College (87)</li>
<li>Wellesley College (86.4)</li>
</ol>

<p>Top 4-Year Graduation Rates at Public Colleges and Universities
(Note: Not including U.S. Service Academies)</p>

<ol>
<li>University of Virginia (83%)</li>
<li>William & Mary (80)</li>
<li>SUNY Binghamton (69.9)</li>
<li>UNC Chapel Hill (69.5)</li>
<li>St. Mary's College of Maryland (67.2)</li>
<li>U of Michigan-Ann Arbor (65.4)</li>
<li>Miami U of Ohio (64.5)</li>
<li>SUNY Geneseo (64.2)</li>
<li>College of New Jersey (62%)</li>
<li>James Madison U (60.6)</li>
</ol>

<p>

[/quote]
10 characters</p>

<p>The IPEDs site will give you some data.</p>

<p>Here is some info about 4-year graduate rate for some UCs:</p>

<p>Kiplinger</a> Best lists - Helpful College Admissions Links - The College Search - AdmissionsAdvice.com</p>

74

<p>In computer science, I think the average starting salaries quoted to us year before last differed by about $10,000 from school ranked #1 to school ranked ca. #60. School ranked #60 also offered $15,000/year merit aid, which school #1 did not. Job placement is excellent at the top ranked schools as well.</p>

75

<p>Thanks, Columbia! Enlightening.</p>

<p>mathmom--that's interesting. So...not such a huge disparity in salaries to schools that are ranked at the top and (assuming) the lower middle...</p>

<p>When we toured Rennsalear Poly Tech (well-regarded school for comp sci & $$$)...comp sci was the major w/the top, listed starting salary ($60+).</p>

76

<p>"Sorta like you have plenty of opinions on me, right? I appreciate your interest, but stalkers kinda creep me out so you can stop trolling my posts, k? Thanks"</p>

<p>wow! why the defensiveness? I was simply and truly advising her to read your posts on USC. In fact, I think your posts are usually very helpful. Sorry that you misjudged my post. Chill</p>

77

<p>Just to chime in</p>

<p>I think the rankings in USNews for Computer Engineering correlate pretty well with Computer Science. Those 20 schools are widely known to be very good for CS. The ones at the very top are famous for their difficulty. </p>

<p>I think the salary difference between #1 and #60 is bigger, maybe $15,000 per year. However, for the sake of argument, even $10K is no small amount when the base is $60K. Consider that your raises are typically a fraction of your salary, it can quickly compound to a large amount of money over the course of a career. </p>

<p>I think the bigger benefit to the better program for the right students is the pace and the difficulty of the problems being assigned. If you go faster and deeper then you cover more and you can have greater capabilities four years later. If you get used to solving harder problems, you develop more insight and develop a higher standard of excellence. Both make your market value greater. In the long run, the more you can accomplish in a given amount of time, the faster you'll get more expertise and leadership opportunities, and the faster your salary and market value grow. If you constantly overachieve on the job, your salary will grow in response or you will find an employer (often through a former colleague) who will recognize your talent and pay you for it. If you are forced to work at a higher level in school, it isn't as hard to overachieve on the job - you don't actually know another way. However, this approach isn't for everybody and for some, it's much better to keep your self-esteem high and go slower. </p>

<p>I do agree that there are many ways to be successful though and there is a huge range in the capabilities of new CS grads, not unlike the huge range in capabilities between NCAA basketball players. Fortunately, it's easier to land a CS job than a NBA point guard job, but the principle is the same - it's all about talent and capabilities at every level.</p>

78

<p>
[Quote]
wow! why the defensiveness? I was simply and truly advising her to read your posts on USC. In fact, I think your posts are usually very helpful. Sorry that you misjudged my post. Chill

[/Quote]
I'm truly sorry, I mistook you for someone else. Please accept my sincere apology. :)</p>

79

<p>
[quote]
I talked to a guy whose brother just graduated w/a degree in comp sci from a small, not-well-known NJ school (Rowan--did 2 yrs community coll first). He said his bro bagged groceries at the local supermarket for a year after graduating before he found his first ($40k) job at a defense dept subcontractor.

[/quote]

Jolynne:
Please don't consider that typical. That's way at the low end of the spectrum for starting salaries in CS and there seems to be plenty of demand right now. It's hard to say in this particular example if it's due to the school (doubtful), the individual (doesn't interview well, has other issues), or ancillary factors (unwilling to relocate, located in an area with few opportunities, etc.).</p>

<p>The info you got at RPI (starting salaries of $60K +-) is about right.</p>

<p>Regarding ranking of the school, most people tend to go with the highest ranked school within their list given their ability to afford the tuition (a somewhat lower ranked school might win-out over a higher ranked if there's enough of a good financial package) and their other wants (location, size, etc.).</p>

<p>In CS a fair amount of initial job offers come from internships and a fair number of internships come from on-campus recruiting and the colleges at the upper end of the spectrum have more on-campus recruiting. This is a generalization. With the difficulty level of some of these programs a potential employer knows that most people who can make it through the program must have something on the ball.</p>

80

<p>Thanks, ClassicRockerdad & ucsducladad! Appreciate that information. That description of 'rigor & speed of coursework' explains the variations in schools a bit more than a simple 'ranking.' </p>

<p>Big relief that the Rowan grad's experience isn't typical. Still...it's steering me away from encouraging son to go there, no matter how much an academic & financial safety it might be!</p>

<p>This is all really helpful!!</p>