@novicedad Interesting analysis. This reminds me a bit of behavioral economics. Economists, for years were confounded by the fact that human beings don’t act as rational actors and so their calculated predictions kept coming out wrong. In this case, every true fact you stated needs to be filtered through the lens of the student’s personality, needs and wants. If a student is going to be miserable at Drexel, that changes her chance for success. Its the human factor that each family has to consider.
I just want to add as a P.S. I see a lot of denigrating of Hofstra on these boards. My D visited and liked it a lot. It just goes to show that there is no one right path.
Re:Hofstra
Let me be clear - we absolutely loved the Medical School (you can read about that in the results thread sample). In fact, they had an excellent parent session and answered all our questions. We like their facilities and their link with 22- hospital Northwell system.
I also like their teacher pedagogy.
I also like their residency match list.
We were extremely concerned about the quality of their undergrad college.
For us, that was important.
Re: behavior economics: fully agree with your comments.
No need of going ballistic, after all no one is trying to convince you to do something you don’t believe in. :-). And yes, I want to reiterate as I did earlier, don’t make assumptions that going to such and such for undergrad will land the kid in such and such place later. If you value the undergrad experience so much, sure go for it but be aware of uncertainties.
It is not only @NoviceDad, but I know brilliant, brilliant kids, who did want to go to medicine after their undergrads from Princeton, Cornell, MIT and JHU who either ended up in med schools that are not that fancied or totally dropped the plans altogether.
And no, these programs are not marketing driven completely as you claim or not that they don’t offer the safety nets since all the kids they are taking are too smart and so don’t need one. Regarding the value proposition you may not see it but majority of kids who get accepted into them and their families do with the yield rates for the programs higher than most ivies. By the way FYI, Ivies and other fancied brands do resort to marketing strategies, like for example a student’s likelihood of getting in is 3 times or more higher by applying early decision (binding) than if he were to apply regular decision. I shared a link on all the stats some time ago on the very thread if you care to look for. Some Ivies have ongoing lawsuits that they actively discriminate ORMs, an open secret all the while.
Regarding the safety net offered by the programs, at least the one I shared earlier in the day, a student getting Cs in one or more subjects is most likely not getting into a med school in traditional route. Or even if he does not the one he wants. In the program that I mentioned, 95% of kids matriculate into med school despite any such short comings.
@rk2017 – I’m sorry – I certainly did not mean to come off as going ballistic!
Maybe I am not being clear – I totally agree with you that a name brand, Ivy League UG is no guarantee of a name brand, Ivy League med school. I’m trying to say that, for some, the name brand, Ivy League UG has subjective value in and of itself. That’s why they don’t have to offer BS/MD programs to attract our kids
These programs have high yield rates because lots of folks are risk averse, and are willing to go to UG’s they would never otherwise consider in return for a conditional acceptance to a med school that would also not be a first choice, even though it might well end up being the school they’d end up at anyway.
For what it’s worth, I agree with you that binding early decision at Ivies is evil, and is a way for the schools to lock in upper middle class full pay students without having to haggle over price with competition from other schools offering need-based or merit scholarships. Another benefit for the school is the ability to increase its yield and decrease its regular admit rate. Benefit for the family, assuming it’s willing to pay the price (surprise, surprise!) is risk aversion, since they get to lock in an Ivy League acceptance early, and with a much higher chance of acceptance. While this is certainly a form of marketing, it is not marketing to get kids that wouldn’t otherwise want to go to the school. It’s actually the opposite, since they are offering the prospect of being admitted when they might not otherwise be admitted.
Also, I’m not sure that a single “C” traditional route would be fatal, depending on the rest of the transcript. Which BS/MD program moves kids into med school with multiple “Cs” in UG? That doesn’t sound like a particularly selective med school!
@NoviceDad – you should know that I have been a long time fan of your posts, and pretty much agree with all of them.
So, it’s pretty funny, that you are directing us to oldie but goodie post #1759, in particular the gap year economic analysis, which I didn’t agree with back when you first posted it! Med schools are increasing looking for the gap year because they like the “seasoning,” experience and maturity the extra year provides. Your analysis focuses on the 1 or 2 years of lost earnings, assuming that year or two is presently valued at mid career earning levels. Amortized over the course of a 30 or 40 year career, 1 or 2 years of delayed earnings, discounted using a net present value calculation, is actually worth very little today. The years you lose are not the first ones, but the last ones, and discounted using average interest rates over 40 years, they are not worth much today. (For example, a $500,000 lump sum received 40 years from now, discounted back to today at a 5% interest rate, is only $71,000.) That’s probably a good estimate of what a gap year would cost, and spread over a lifetime it is nothing compared to expected earning for a physician over a lifetime.
If you are just doing an economic analysis, going into medicine today sucks compared to a generation ago, due to the prevalence today of PPOs and dependence on insurance networks. The odds are that future changes in the next generation (Medicare for all, anyone?) will have a much greater negative economic on future doctors than a gap year or two, which could actually enhance future earning potential depending on how the time is spent.
@NJDad00 You have been making a lot of comments but please stop denigrating Temple, Drexel, Union etc. DD is a Temple PPHS with 4.0 GPA. She can compete with any Ivy league undergraduate. Thanks.
@grtd2010 – sorry! I meant no offense, but you are kind of making my point, which is not to denigrate any institution. I am CERTAIN that, by virtue of being accepted to a BS/MD program, your DD is as good as anyone anywhere. But, honestly, would she be at Temple without PPHS? If not, that’s my point, that they used a conditional guarantee to lure a high stat kid who otherwise wouldn’t give them a second look. If she would have gone to Temple regardless, then I am making an assumption I have no right to make, and I apologize.
@NJDad00’s argument that most kids with high stats won’t cosidering applying to most of the schools except for BSMD is true. I don’t think he is denigrating them.
My DS’s first UG admission was Pitt and lot of his classmates made jokes on that even though most know he applied for BSMD.
Well this is the most true thing that’s been said on this board lately! Any of our smart, ambitious kids could make a heck of a lot more money without spending half a million dollars to get there if they simply chose a different field. That’s actually the question that intrigues me - why do so many kids still want to be doctors?
@NoviceDad I understand about Hofstra, I just don’t want other kids to come across these threads and think that Hofstra is a terrible choice and keep away. D liked it and I know people who are happy there so I wanted to give a counter example.
@NJDad00
Thank you for being a fan.
Totally appreciate it.
And yes agree with you and @gallentjill that if making money is the motive, medicine may not be the first option, investment banking is a much better option than medicine.
The economic analysis was in response to the “higher” cost of BS/MD.
What I suggested was 1 perspective on looking at costs.
Trust me, it is one of the most reputed ones in this realm of programs and the med school is even more reputed worldwide. Many of the senior members here know that name but I am stopping short of mentioning since lately some folks took offence to certain names coming up repeatedly here and I am being sensitive to that.
To your question on whether my child would have gone to the undergrad there without the admission to the program? Yes, a good possibility and she would have even gotten a handsome scholarship too. Infact some half a dozen of her batch mates from her high school (a rigorous and reputed one) went there to different areas of study, some of them even forsaking almost free rides at the local (reputed again) state school.
The reason even the highly accomplished and high stats students of the program ending up with Cs is that the undergrad there is all about rigor. As someone pointed out earlier if some one is lucky to have been admitted to the program with a rather deceptive 4.0 uw gpa from an easy going school, they are bound to struggle. But a fall or two won’t certainly stop them from making the cut to the reputed med school there at the end of 3 years.
