@NoviceDad – I totally agree with @gallentjill, as it is unethical to double deposit, as he has pointed out. Ethical options include asking Rice for an extension, withdrawing all other acceptances and going to Rice whether or not Baylor comes through, or telling Rice/Baylor this is “BS” (pun intended!) (especially since it is unlikely to actually be accepted off this particular wait list), and going to the best school/program that has actually accepted you as of 4/30.
Lying to Rice is not the only choice. Of course, it IS the only choice that breaks the rules and keeps all options open.
Anyway, what right does Baylor have to require you to commit to Rice before it accepts you? Does it do that for the kids who are currently accepted? Why on earth would Rice encourage you to lie to them and later break a commitment as opposed to simply granting an extension until a decision is made by Baylor? You are already a top candidate, so they want you, they know you applied for the program, and you are good enough to be one of the few on the Baylor wait list. Why not allow the process to play out according to the rules, rather than force a top student to begin a medical career with an unethical act, possibly costing someone a seat in a UG class by lying about an intention to enroll after the deadline for making a decision?
If I were @bsmdseeker2019, I would call (or have my parents do it) the UG (Rice or Baylor), explain the situation and ask for the extension. I would not give up the seat until I heard back from the wait list, but I also would not jeopardize my seat in the school I am actually very likely to attend (given how small these programs are and how unlikely it is that any one candidate will be accepted off the wait list) by screwing around with the rules at this late stage. I also wouldn’t want to jeopardize a later seat in whatever med school I end up attending (since med schools seem to be big on ethics) by telling Rice or Baylor UG I am coming whether or not I am accepted off the Baylor med school wait list when that is simply not true, and risk having that lie be exposed when I am not accepted off the wait list and I break my commitment to enroll at the UG.
For what it is worth, no reputable school in the country, from HYPSM down to the lowest ranked community college, asks an applicant to provide a non refundable enrollment deposit in order to secure a spot on a wait list! If this program is asking for a commitment to attend the associated UG as a precondition to securing a spot on a wait list, it is unethical to make that request (since it was not made of the candidates accepted up to this point), and it is unethical for the student to make that commitment absent an intention to honor it. If the student has no intention to attend the UG without the BS/MD program, that should be made clear to the schools, and the schools should provide a decision prior to requesting a deposit. Again, this whole point is probably moot insofar as I’m sure VERY few students are accepted to the Baylor BS/MD program off the wait list, and it really shouldn’t be a big deal to get an extension for a few weeks before Baylor MD makes final decisions.
Double depositing is allowed in case of waitlisting.
The fact is you applied to a BS/MD program and you are waitlisted for that program.
That is the fact.
In this specific case, the institution (Baylor) has made it clear you need to accept the undergrad (Rice) to remain in consideration.
Because if you don’t do that they consider that you are NOT interested in Baylor.
It is ONE program (spanning two institutions) and you were waitlisted for that ONE program. That is the fact.
And double-depositing is valid for all waitlisted cases.
We can debate about the need for the institute to change its rules and process but at this juncture it is important to follow the process they have set.
@GoldenRock – your point about the regular MD process is very well taken, but the ethics considerations remain the same. My understanding is that regular MD admission is so difficult that very few are lucky enough to have this problem (i.e., more than one acceptance), but the rules require candidates to release all but one acceptance as of 4/30, so that the med schools can know what their yield is going to be and clear their wait lists so they can fill their classes before them school year begins. Med schools take this very seriously, and violating this rule and getting caught could result in the candidate not going to med school at all! My understanding is that med school aid packages for students admitted before 5/1 come in time for students to make informed decisions prior to the 4/30 deadline. (At least according to all the posts I see on SDN!)
@NoviceDad@GoldenRock thanks for your input. Wondering how the process works- How many students do they put on the waitlist and how many usually get off the waitlist? Trying to assess my D’s chances.
@NoviceDad – other than sucking a few extra dollars out of parents’ bank accounts, I am not sure what the rationale is for requiring a wait listed candidate to a program to pay a non-refundable deposit to be allowed to stay on a wait list. That said, the deposit is to Rice UG, not Baylor Med, and not the one PROGRAM you are talking about. The allowable exception to breaking an enrollment commitment signified by a deposit is if you are accepted off of a wait list at another institution; NOT if you are NOT accepted off a wait list at an affiliated institution as part of a combined program. Consequently, it appears as though Rice is seeking a commitment to enroll, regardless of your BS/MD status, by not extending the deadline for BS/MD wait listed candidates. You are lying by making that commitment with no intention to keep it if you are not accepted to the program.
While you are parsing language by saying you are wait listed at ONE PROGRAM, you are being asked to make a deposit, not at ONE PROGRAM, but at ONE UG. That deposit is taking a seat at the school, after the deadline, that is then not available to someone on that UG’s wait list. It’s legit to reneg on a commitment to attend if you get off another wait list. I’m not sure it’s ever legit to double deposit, although I know it is done. If double depositing is so legit and accepted in cases such as this, @bsmdseeker2019 should be transparent and tell the other school exactly what is going on! (P.S. – I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS!!!)
No PROGRAM asks for a deposit to a PROGRAM to stay on a wait list for the PROGRAM. This PROGRAM is asking for an unconditional commitment to the UG to stay on the wait list. Giving that deposit, plus a deposit to another UG, is unethical. It is tying up two UG seats after the deadline when only one can be occupied.
@trk136 Please consider getting a proper legal advise about double depositing if you are serious about Baylor/Rice waitlist option. Does your HS approve of double depositing ? They have to worry about future graduating classes.
I don’t think @trk136 needs to go as far as getting legal advice. My point was that it was unethical for the school to ask for this, not that it would be unethical for his family to comply. I believe he should speak with his school guidance department to see how they would handle the duel request.
@NoviceDad – Many thanks to you for doing this!!! If they are decent about this, they will grant an extension until wait list is resolved, or else make clear that the deposit is NOT a commitment to enroll, in which case it would not be a double deposit, should be refundable if admission off the wait list is not granted, and would not violate any rules.
Finally spoke with RICE UG admissions officer.
Here is the summary of the discussion:
He understood the concern on double depositing and indicated in this case of Baylor waitlist, it is okay to accept RICE UG and other BS/MD program at a different university. RICE considers such as special cases and not a case of double depositing. There will be no repercussions on the High School or the student.
There is no deadline set for clearing of waitlist.
There is absolutely no extension to indicate your decision to RICE UG. It remains the same as before - by May 1.
The student will need to accept at RICE UG and indicate with a letter to RICE that joining RICE is dependent on acceptance from Baylor as and when it clears its waitlist. Also, indicate that if Baylor does not offer admission, the student may not join RICE.
This makes it very clear to the RICE admissions office of where you stand and your interest in the Rice/Baylor MSP.
If you withdraw from RICE, re-indicate the same reason as in your original letter to RICE.
Your deposit, however, will be forfeited in case you withdraw.
My recommendation to all in such situation is:
CALL Rice UG and re-understand/ re-confirm from them the above.
Accept RICE UG.
Pray all of you get in Baylor.
For point 4 above, since there is hardly any time, the assumption is to send the payment and the letter in FedEx overnight or similar.
For those preferring to pay online with credit card, hope they have text space for putting in the comments. Suggest to take screen shots before and after clicking the submit button.
@NoviceDad – thanks again for doing this. That clears up the issue of ethical behavior on the part of the applicant. Unfortunately, it also clears up the issue of Rice’s greed and lack of ethics in forcing an applicant to provide a non-refundable fee merely to remain eligible for a chance to be called off a wait list.
Understanding that the wait list contains all applicants who were given an interview and not accepted, the wait list contains approximately three times as many people as spots in the program. The chance of being accepted off the wait list is therefore very small, depending on whether anyone turns down their acceptance, and then, where you rank on the wait list. Nevertheless, Rice gets to collect a deposit from everyone who wants a shot, without knowing just how slim that shot is. Very classy!!!
@NoviceDad -thank you for clarifying with Rice. I am assuming the waitlist on the Program clears by the 3rd of May so the students can decide by end of this week.
They will keep you hanging all summer, since someone who accepted can always fall off later if, say, Harvard accepts them off its wait list later. They are keeping you in reserve to make sure each seat is filled. They don’t care about your being settled by the end of the week, or even end of the month, any more than they care about your having to make a non-refundable deposit without actually offering you a spot!
Law schools and med schools typically keep wait lists open right up until classes start, since people can drop out right up to that point, and, like this program, the classes are relatively small and the schools want to make sure that each available seat is filled. Given that you will have already made a deposit, and they won’t know for sure that the people they accepted are actually coming until it is time for them to make a tuition or housing payment, and they are not providing a deadline for giving you a final decision, I would expect that it will go into the summer, unless you are at the top of the list and are accepted before then (assuming anyone actually gets in off the wait list this year).
Any one who got acceptance from R/B, share the content of the letter? Does it say, you need to accept within certain date? or does it say if no confirmation within certain date, the offer is void?
Any one who got wait list letter, what does it say?
@NJDad00
You are welcome. I am glad the students are in the clear in accepting Rice UG.
Re: Rice’s behavior: They know they are in the driver’s seat. No parent is likely to give up the option of R/B for 1000 bucks.
But, they waitlist all interview applicants? Are you sure?
That is very strange considering 22 folks showed up for interviews this year.
That would mean 16 students are waitlisted. Wow!
I thought the waitlisted should be small as their intake is only 6.
If they are decent about this, they will grant an extension until wait list is resolved, or else make clear that the deposit is NOT a commitment to enroll, in which case it would not be a double deposit, should be refundable if admission off the wait list is not granted, and would not violate any rules.